First West of England (Bristol, Bath & The West)

[carlberry]

Well that's a great idea. That's the way to ensure commuters from rural areas get worse public transport services than urban areas. Stupid idea.

Everybody in rural areas get worse services than urban areas. That's capitalism/realism/anything else you want to call it!

 

[CD]

It's competition law (not just buses) - it is basically to stop businesses from abusing their position.

Supermarkets?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Supermarkets?

Yes, but not just them!

 

[baza585]

Well that's a great idea. That's the way to ensure commuters from rural areas get worse public transport services than urban areas. Stupid idea.

Why is it stupid? Why should folk in urban areas pay higher fares to cross-subsidise fares in rural areas?

As an urban dweller, I am already subsidising provision of postal and other services to rural areas (my postman walks to and from the sorting office, most rural posties have to have vans). Really don't see why urban dwellers should provide yet another subsidy to rural dwellers, many of who have considerable wealth and choose to live in the countryside. Who wouldn't if they could afford it?

 

[THarris123]

Why is it stupid? Why should folk in urban areas pay higher fares to cross-subsidise fares in rural areas?

As an urban dweller, I am already subsidising provision of postal and other services to rural areas (my postman walks to and from the sorting office, most rural posties have to have vans). Really don't see why urban dwellers should provide yet another subsidy to rural dwellers, many of who have considerable wealth and choose to live in the countryside. Who wouldn't if they could afford it?

Well i live in a rural area and can only just afford it, so can all of my neighbours and a lot of people I know. I'm a farmer's lad (well grandfather actually) from a very poor farm and in my experience there are just as many people who I know that are wealthy living in urban areas as rural areas.

Simple fact is if more housing and better services were provided rurally, more urban people would consider moving to the rural areas and it wouldn't be such an issue.

Yes ok most of the price of housing, etc is more than some urban areas, but generally the rural areas aren't as wealthy as you think - that's from someone living in Wells

Please don't stereotype.

Anyway back to the actual point I made - I've always been of the principle that every road in the UK should have an alternative method of transport (not just cycling and walking ). Any profits that are earned from bus services should be spread out evenly across their operation, not just invested in urban areas and in some cases rural services are more profitable than some urban services and the profits from them should be spread in the same way.

I've never agreed with applying the competition rules to public transport - supermarkets, manufacturers and service industries (such as accountants) should be regulated completely, but why should something that provides a service to everyone in a region and is completely vital to providing a back-up to people in time of need be regulated? I personally hate it.

I'm sure you lot will have a good go, but personally to me it doesn't make sense.

 

[stait.john]

It is stupid, and was hoisted on the bus industry at DeRegulation in 1986. Prior to that, busy routes could cross subsidise those routes that didn't quite pay, but we're still useful to the community, Urban or Rural. But alas now each route has to stand alone, if it doesn't make money then it doesn't run or is left up to Councils/PTEs to put out for tender.

I personally think Deregulation didn't work for the industry and that is partly why we have so many cars on the road today 30 years later, and a much reduced bus network in most areas across the country.

 

[freetoview33]

It is stupid, and was hoisted on the bus industry at DeRegulation in 1986. Prior to that, busy routes could cross subsidise those routes that didn't quite pay, but we're still useful to the community, Urban or Rural. But alas now each route has to stand alone, if it doesn't make money then it doesn't run or is left up to Councils/PTEs to put out for tender.

I personally think Deregulation didn't work for the industry and that is partly why we have so many cars on the road today 30 years later, and a much reduced bus network in most areas across the country.

Agreed! Deregulation worked in some areas but buses weren't one of them! Coaches worked better although I think the lack of coach stations was madness!

Airline deregulation I think has been largely positive, there are a few issues but for the average person it's better off.

 

[THarris123]

Agreed! Deregulation worked in some areas but buses weren't one of them! Coaches worked better although I think the lack of coach stations was madness!

Airline deregulation I think has been largely positive, there are a few issues but for the average person it's better off.

Well said freetoview33 and John. Agree.

 

[THarris123]

Very rare for me to take photos of buses, but I couldn't resist 66726 in Weston

 

[THarris123]

And another I just caught of 66726

 

[Marc]

It is stupid, and was hoisted on the bus industry at DeRegulation in 1986. Prior to that, busy routes could cross subsidise those routes that didn't quite pay, but we're still useful to the community, Urban or Rural. But alas now each route has to stand alone, if it doesn't make money then it doesn't run or is left up to Councils/PTEs to put out for tender.

I personally think Deregulation didn't work for the industry and that is partly why we have so many cars on the road today 30 years later, and a much reduced bus network in most areas across the country.

Bus services have declined much less under dereglation than they did in the last ten years of the nbc. nationalized buses were just a political football, running wherever councillours shouted most loudly and robbing busy corredors of vehicles to serve this end. THAT is how you get more cars on the road and wer'e now heading back to those dark days where clue less councillours and office staff decide the future of busses rather than the people who run them. buses will become unresponsive to passenger demand and dominated by politics!

 

[THarris123]

Today was my first jolly around since moving. I really needed to study for 2 exams next week (audit and budgeting/costing - in case Mr Wazoo is interested/can offer any tips ), but instead went on a big trip whilst taking my books with me.

Started in Wells with the 10.30 126 where I bought a £10 day. It was 69445 and it was a lovely ride all the way to Weston - B7s are more than suited to 126 and the like and i'm very pleased (as I think are the drivers) that they stayed in Wells. 69445 flew up the A38 after Axbridge, proving just how powerful they are and how perfect they are for country work. On the way we saw 66936 and 69440, the latter being a bus that seems to be making a very regular appearance on 126. Got into Weston and saw the lovely 66726 (see the rubbish pics )

Then it was to 21. The one that was waiting which was leaving about 10 mins late was 32859, so instead of having my backside broken to pieces, I went and had lunch and waited for the next 21. Whilst waiting saw 66726 again, 66723/5/7 and 66934 (I thought all 55 B7s in Weston were in Urban) on W7 and 44910, 44914/5 on W3. Then onto 21 and what came along 5 mins late - 61594. Horrible bus for passengers - if FSW is reading this, please either send this back to Glasgow or refurb the seats - the seats are awful. I had to sit on my coat for the whole journey, which is not nice. Mechanically the bus is fine - much the same as the other 02 stuff. Went all the way to Taunton on this. Not many people on at all - single deck is fine in winter. On the way saw 32844, 40591/3, 32817, 32930, 32874, 32843, 40585, 33382 all on 21/A. In Bridgwater saw 40588 and 40590 on 1 and 40594 on 14. Webberbus have now really got a stronghold in Bridgwater - is it now time that First withdraw from Bridgwater. Obviously 21 would still have to run (as it only just makes money), but split it at Bridgwater and run Taunton-Bridgwater from Taunton and Weston-Bridgwater from Weston. Then run X75 from Wells. No point anymore with the rest, as they've let Webbers take virtually everything there now. Ashame really.

In Taunton, First still have a good stronghold. Got in early and had a look around. Saw at the depot 32935, 33379, 48225, 55102 and 48234. At the bus station there was a stack of old rotting buses parked up - 40034, 42472, 43823, 50285, a Vario, 42252 and a Trident - obviously stuff they can't sell. All vehicles apart from 43823 have had their display boards taken out. On the road coming in/out I saw 47536/7 on P&R, 45111 (6), 44922 (5), 44923 (2), 43867 (5). In bus station saw a very busy 30 - full to the brim was 62183. That should be hourly and single deck is fine. 69013 on 28, 62245 coming in on 28, 48272 on 25, 40584 coming in on 25 and 40581 going out on 22A. So then caught 54 with a late 33381. Those really are lovely buses - a lot of bumps and a few odd rattles, but I had a very nice trip to Yeovil, especially with the sunlit views along the way. On the way saw 32954 coming in on 21, 48273 and 32936 on 54.

Got into Yeovil (it's looking even worse there now - loads more shops gone out of business, ashame) about 15 mins late. Had a look around and 60914 was waiting to go out on 377 without a driver at 16.45. Asked around to see if it broken down or not - even asked the office staff if it was going out, to the response of I expect so - helpful Waited a few mins and gave up to have a look around. 42950 was waiting to go out on 58A, 53111 on 1, 53052 on 57, 53056 on 3, 53110 on 1, 42952 on 1 and 53611 was in bus station. 53057 is now in Urban and was in the bus station for a while til going out on 2. 69447 turned up on 377 and the break down truck turned up for 60914. Back on 377 on the way i saw 53614 on 1, we met 69446 just coming out of Kingsdon (stupid to have them meeting there and saw 60912 in Street on 377. Also saw 35166/7 on 376. Back in Wells 69443 and 69438 were in depot, with the solo dead at the back and 2 Streetdecks.

Overall a very nice day out, seen some lovely views and interesting things, but would have preferred a better vehicle on 21. And I still managed to do plenty of study!

 

[vicbury]

Apologies in advance for the ramble but I've been away and am now catching up properly with this thread.

It's good to see enhancements to the 5, 10 and 13 in Bath with the 5 returning to its frequency of the mid-2000s; is the 13 to be at its best-ever frequency?

Bit surprised that no changes have been proposed to the 14 as reliability is really suffering on this route with bunching of three buses a common sight. Maybe more proactive management (i.e. cutting short some vehicles at the RUH) instead of a timetable change would help as a lot of the issues recently have been down to Christmas market followed by closure of Ambury and roadworks on St James Parade in Bath.

I was pleasantly surprised to see that the RTI displays in Bath are now being used more proactively - for example all stops along the routes of the 1 / 37 / 319 were advising of the closure of Newbridge Hill for roadworks whilst the currently suspended bus stop on St James Parade is advising passengers of the nearest open bus stops. More of the same please.

I was away in Norway (Oslo and Bergen) and had some experiences of relevance to First in the West of England.

Firstly, Oslo has a large fleet of gas-powered MAN Lion's City articulated buses with four doors and full climate control. Excellent vehicles and a shame that they are not available in right hand drive but maybe something similar for Metrobus given that it will have off-bus ticketing. The operation of the doors was also very slick. At stops the drivers would release the doors and passengers would then press the button to open the doors which they required. The doors would then close again automatically as soon as they were clear to keep the heat in.

Secondly, next stop information is extremely useful for tourists. The information provided on Oslo's buses goes even further, listing the next three stops; the time to the next three stops; and the bus, tram and metro interchanges available at the next three stops. Brilliant.

WiFi on buses: I previously critiqued this wondering who needs it when most people have smartphones with data connections. Well, for tourists it is a real boon allowing one to plan one's journey and connections whilst in transit. I am therefore a convert and am glad that this investment has been made in the West of England.

We are lucky that vandalism is relative rare and low-key in the West of England. The amount of etching in the glass on Oslo's trams was simply appalling.

Finally, I saw a double-articualted VanHool in operation in Bergen. This was being used on regular streets rather than any segregated busway or the like. Maybe these would be a good choice for the Bristol Park and Rides!

 

[freetoview33]

I wonder what route the 902 will take around the centre once metrobus changes happen. As it won't be able to take it's current route.

 

[1905 Group]

I'm pleased 32001/2 are back in Bristol, but I've heard the other five UniBus ones are to be scrapped, which is a shame. And also on Friday, three Darts on the 1/2, 42897, 42900 and 42901!

 

[Private Baxter]

http://www.firstgroup.com/bristol-b...st-west-england-announce-service-changes-bath

At the end of the day FSA is loss making so tough decisions have to be made such as the 231, and as sad as it is that another slice of Wiltshire work is going, it's a step on the right direction.

I now understand why they have made this decision, I just didn't realise it was such a loss making service. Those comments are still appearing on their fb page. I don't know how long Faresaver have operated their X31, but when a competitor starts runs a more direct link between two towns, the slower, original route is set to suffer, as the bulk of the passengers will prefer the faster service, meaning those who get on at the villages not served by the X31 are the ones who lose out when First decide their service is no longer viable. Yet First are the ones who then have to take the stick. A similar thing happened with Webberbus and their 37 against 375. Still wish First had put up a bit more of a fight though.

I would've thought the current Darts on the 5 would stay on there and be treated to the new style livery with green front?

Full size buses on the Bath 5 with Darts replacing Solos on the 10.

No mention of the 54.

John

Agreed, the 5 will stick with the current plain white buses, which will get their repaint in due course.
Something tells me some of those B7RLEs in Bath will find their way on to local routes, maybe even the 14. I expect a slight PVR drop in Bath (again) and share THarries' thoughts that the two remaining Y reg B10s will become redundant and leave.

Crikey - what a lot of stuff written. Let's get the knowns and unknowns sorted...

Wiltshire - There won't be a massive reaction to the 231 going because, quite simply, Faresaver are running on that service. They'll need to re-route via Hungerdown but TBH, they'll need to do that as some journeys will probably need deckers (so expect some more ex London stuff to appear at Bumpers Farm). The 231 is five vehicles. A sixth vehicle is spare from the 10 being massively scaled back by Wiltshire Council.

However, First need (as I said the other week) to stop faffing around with a mix of newish Streetlites and aged B7s on the 265/7/72 and reallocate some of the 59 plates from Wells to Westbury. Seems ridiculous to have modern, quality vehicles like those poodling around for 5 pensioners and the odd mother and buggie on stuff like the 375 and 161 whilst the Westbury routes have 54 plates on them.

Bath - the 5 is every 12 mins and aside from the odd journey around 5-ish, it doesn't seem to need upping to 10 mins. The 10 going to Darts makes sense though a bit odd with the frequency being upped too. I suspect the Darts will possibly involve the ones at HE in white and/or a couple dislodged from the 72? The 14 will remain Darts for the time being

Intriguing to see the 13 getting a lift too. Will this spell the end of the B10BLEs in Bath? Probably not - the vehicles saved from 231 going are being absorbed by these increases and remember that the 3 Solars at Westbury are due to return to Weymouth.

What really makes sense is the U1 changes. Pleasantly surprised that new fleet is going there, and the use of B7LAs only in the peak means a lot lower running cost during the day (fuel consumption = gallons per mile!!)

Where the Solos that are freed up from this will go, who knows. I don't think Kernow is that likely - just a feeling. Might even send some to Weston and get rid of some of the e200s there....or is that wishful thinking!

Bristol - the 5 is being extended but the frequency widened. Ok, but seems an odd one to get branded! Still, what the hell and that service will be 06 Darts. Darts on the 36 with the odd ageing decker will be my bet. The Streetlites will continue on the 18 - the 5 just isn't lucrative enough to get them.

My hunch is that all these savings (along with turning the 36/50/51 short) will result in some of the older non DDA deckers going.

North Somerset - The real surprise is the reallocation of the X2/X3 to Weston, but guess it's reflective of the staffing challenges in Bristol. You begin to wonder if a resurrection of the old Clevedon outstation might not be a bad idea (joke!!). I'd expect the Streetlites to transfer across - no reason why they wouldn't and every reason why they would. More intriguingly, wonder how the breaks will be worked in.... perhaps some journeys will be worked by an MH driver or two to create a rolling break? Be interesting to know.

However, the truncation of the A2 at the airport was really to be expected. Glad I did it in December but in truth, I had the bus largely to myself to Nailsea from the airport. However, should also be noted that usually at least one board on the A2 is a B7RLE and sometimes two so hence why e200s aren't likely to head to Bath - a victory for Vicbury!! (Bedum tish)

Wells - Despite the fevered imagination of some drivers, I really don't see much happening here other than potentially the one remaining 126 board moving to WS. Just don't see the 29 moving (despite it logistically being better suited by being run from the north) and arguably, the only reason the 375 keeps going is the college runs and to starve WB of a free run on that route and deprive them of revenue.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Seconded from me - hope the move has worked out well.

Bath depot has seen some considerable decline over the last year, and sadly this continues into 2016. A far cry from ten years ago. Still, both Weston and Wells saw decline over the last few years as well, but both have bounced back amazingly imo. Wells are in a very good position, and I am pleased they have all those B7RLEs, even if I am inclined to agree somewhat with their choice of allocations! IF Wells get the remaining 126 board, then I imagine another 02 B7 will head down from BH.

I too did the northern section of A2 towards the end of last year, I think in around October, and what a lovely route it was, but as with you I was one of only a handful of people on, the majority of whom I think were pensioners, so regretfully this was expected.

Oh and can you enlighten me as to when this Clevedon outstation was in opearation? Didn't actually know there was one.

Very rare for me to take photos of buses, but I couldn't resist 66726 in Weston

Thanks! I STILL have not seen this bus! Wish they'd take it out of Weston from time to time! I like the WM66726 plate on it, nice touch.

Today was my first jolly around since moving. I really needed to study for 2 exams next week (audit and budgeting/costing - in case Mr Wazoo is interested/can offer any tips ), but instead went on a big trip whilst taking my books with me.

Started in Wells with the 10.30 126 where I bought a £10 day. It was 69445 and it was a lovely ride all the way to Weston - B7s are more than suited to 126 and the like and i'm very pleased (as I think are the drivers) that they stayed in Wells. 69445 flew up the A38 after Axbridge, proving just how powerful they are and how perfect they are for country work. On the way we saw 66936 and 69440, the latter being a bus that seems to be making a very regular appearance on 126. Got into Weston and saw the lovely 66726 (see the rubbish pics )

Then it was to 21. The one that was waiting which was leaving about 10 mins late was 32859, so instead of having my backside broken to pieces, I went and had lunch and waited for the next 21. Whilst waiting saw 66726 again, 66723/5/7 and 66934 (I thought all 55 B7s in Weston were in Urban) on W7 and 44910, 44914/5 on W3. Then onto 21 and what came along 5 mins late - 61594. Horrible bus for passengers - if FSW is reading this, please either send this back to Glasgow or refurb the seats - the seats are awful. I had to sit on my coat for the whole journey, which is not nice. Mechanically the bus is fine - much the same as the other 02 stuff. Went all the way to Taunton on this. Not many people on at all - single deck is fine in winter. On the way saw 32844, 40591/3, 32817, 32930, 32874, 32843, 40585, 33382 all on 21/A. In Bridgwater saw 40588 and 40590 on 1 and 40594 on 14. Webberbus have now really got a stronghold in Bridgwater - is it now time that First withdraw from Bridgwater. Obviously 21 would still have to run (as it only just makes money), but split it at Bridgwater and run Taunton-Bridgwater from Taunton and Weston-Bridgwater from Weston. Then run X75 from Wells. No point anymore with the rest, as they've let Webbers take virtually everything there now. Ashame really.

In Taunton, First still have a good stronghold. Got in early and had a look around. Saw at the depot 32935, 33379, 48225, 55102 and 48234. At the bus station there was a stack of old rotting buses parked up - 40034, 42472, 43823, 50285, a Vario, 42252 and a Trident - obviously stuff they can't sell. All vehicles apart from 43823 have had their display boards taken out. On the road coming in/out I saw 47536/7 on P&R, 45111 (6), 44922 (5), 44923 (2), 43867 (5). In bus station saw a very busy 30 - full to the brim was 62183. That should be hourly and single deck is fine. 69013 on 28, 62245 coming in on 28, 48272 on 25, 40584 coming in on 25 and 40581 going out on 22A. So then caught 54 with a late 33381. Those really are lovely buses - a lot of bumps and a few odd rattles, but I had a very nice trip to Yeovil, especially with the sunlit views along the way. On the way saw 32954 coming in on 21, 48273 and 32936 on 54.

Got into Yeovil (it's looking even worse there now - loads more shops gone out of business, ashame) about 15 mins late. Had a look around and 60914 was waiting to go out on 377 without a driver at 16.45. Asked around to see if it broken down or not - even asked the office staff if it was going out, to the response of I expect so - helpful Waited a few mins and gave up to have a look around. 42950 was waiting to go out on 58A, 53111 on 1, 53052 on 57, 53056 on 3, 53110 on 1, 42952 on 1 and 53611 was in bus station. 53057 is now in Urban and was in the bus station for a while til going out on 2. 69447 turned up on 377 and the break down truck turned up for 60914. Back on 377 on the way i saw 53614 on 1, we met 69446 just coming out of Kingsdon (stupid to have them meeting there and saw 60912 in Street on 377. Also saw 35166/7 on 376. Back in Wells 69443 and 69438 were in depot, with the solo dead at the back and 2 Streetdecks.

Overall a very nice day out, seen some lovely views and interesting things, but would have preferred a better vehicle on 21. And I still managed to do plenty of study!

Thanks for sharing. Haven't done much of that, but worth giving a go by the sounds of it. B7RLEs often show up on 126 on Saturdays.

I'm pleased 32001/2 are back in Bristol, but I've heard the other five UniBus ones are to be scrapped, which is a shame. And also on Friday, three Darts on the 1/2, 42897, 42900 and 42901!

They are becoming quite common on the 1/2, though I believe 42901 is now a Hengrove machine.

 

[Marc]

A renumbering of 319 has been expected for some time, with number 19 being both sensible and logical, only problem is Wessex's 19 kind of gets in the way too, as GW says. I was thinking 80 might also have worked, but appreciate they want to minimize the confusion when changing route numbers, and dropping the 3 was the easiest solution.

31 would have made more sense.

A2 altered to run WSM to Bristol Airport only.

is this definate or just speculation?

 

[Private Baxter]

31 would have made more sense.

Agree, but then it would have clashed with Bath's P&R service.

 

[freetoview33]

31 would have made more sense.



is this definate or just speculation?

It is confirmed

 

[THarris123]

I just saw a Streetdeck displaying 375 - just stopped in the depot and it went out with 375 on the front. It even left Wells (going to Street) with 375 to Wells displayed.

Now do you prefer the 59 plate B7s on 375 GW?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Is this now a Balkan phishing website? Seem to be getting blocked on desktop.

Your question is like asking who I want as England manager - Tony Pulis or Sam Allardyce. In the same way, both are good at what they do but aren't really what's needed

 

[THarris123]

Is this now a Balkan phishing website? Seem to be getting blocked on desktop.

Your question is like asking who I want as England manager - Tony Pulis or Sam Allardyce. In the same way, both are good at what they do but aren't really what's needed

That's probably the rambling the me and Vicbury have done which have blocked it

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That's probably the rambling the me and Vicbury have done which have blocked it

Seems to have been sorted now Now I can respond to posts
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I now understand why they have made this decision, I just didn't realise it was such a loss making service. Those comments are still appearing on their fb page. I don't know how long Faresaver have operated their X31, but when a competitor starts runs a more direct link between two towns, the slower, original route is set to suffer, as the bulk of the passengers will prefer the faster service, meaning those who get on at the villages not served by the X31 are the ones who lose out when First decide their service is no longer viable. Yet First are the ones who then have to take the stick. A similar thing happened with Webberbus and their 37 against 375. Still wish First had put up a bit more of a fight though.

Something tells me some of those B7RLEs in Bath will find their way on to local routes, maybe even the 14. I expect a slight PVR drop in Bath (again) and share THarries' thoughts that the two remaining Y reg B10s will become redundant and leave.

Bath depot has seen some considerable decline over the last year, and sadly this continues into 2016. A far cry from ten years ago. Still, both Weston and Wells saw decline over the last few years as well, but both have bounced back amazingly imo. Wells are in a very good position, and I am pleased they have all those B7RLEs, even if I am inclined to agree somewhat with their choice of allocations! IF Wells get the remaining 126 board, then I imagine another 02 B7 will head down from BH.

I too did the northern section of A2 towards the end of last year, I think in around October, and what a lovely route it was, but as with you I was one of only a handful of people on, the majority of whom I think were pensioners, so regretfully this was expected.

Oh and can you enlighten me as to when this Clevedon outstation was in opearation? Didn't actually know there was one.

Clevedon - the outstation was in the old Station Yard and was around until the early 1990s. Was an outstation of MH. Before that, it was in an old quarry (late 1970s?). Only 3 or 4 vehicles though

I suspect the B10BLEs will stay though not necessarily at Bath. Remember that there are still 10 trainers so parts won't be the consideration you might think AND the Solars will need to return to Weymouth. Also, BoS don't need to replace anything at the moment. The only surprise is that they didn't head to Wells!!

I agree with you about the Faresaver tactic of skipping villages to shave down their PVR. First did the same with Rode (on the 267) and people are up in arms and First get the blame, not the competition! Bath has actually done reasonably well in recent years - remember they essentially have the 349 and increased Uni services. Still, a bit reduced on the Wiltshire services plus the loss of open top and Nat Ex work from the good old days of the early 1990s

I don't know the financial position of the 231 but I was surprised to see it pulled. TBH, I'd be surprised if the 231 was in a worse position than the 375! However, there's probably a reason for it....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Good summary there. A few observations...

60914 was in WS depot having been dragged back up. Dodgy starter motor suspected!

The 30 won't go to hourly. You probably saw the busiest journey of the day/week - I tried it (when still hourly) and there were about 10 people heading to Ilminster on a B6, and virtually an empty 333** Trident back. The extra £100k for running an extra bus just won't get paid back (and I bemoan the loss of the clockface timetable after the subsidy cut)

As for BoS leaving Bridgwater. Don't be swayed by the appearance of so many WB vehicles there - turnover is vanity, profit is sanity. We can see how WB's financial position has weakened over the last year. If they feel they can run to Yeovil commercially.... There is also still the hope of HPC work (despite the EDF FD resigning).

As for my financial tips.... Well, I don't know if you're doing management accountancy? I'm not an accountant or a lawyer so no expert but have a job that involves a bit of both. All I can say is

Know your cost base and manage it
Know your break-even point
Businesses exist for one reason only
Management information is used to measure performance - if you can't measure it, you can't manage it, and if you can't manage it, shoot it

 

[iantherev]

The problem with BoS (and Kernow too) is that there are so many vehicles which date from what I refer to as First's minimalistic seating period that it's well nigh on impossible to avoid them. I had 32714 from Falmouth to Penzance on Friday and the seats made the over 2 hour journey down on a 150/ seem like the lap of luxury - I've sat on more comfortable park benches...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There's two areas of cross subsidy...

The competition angle - you are not allowed to subsidise a loss making competitive service using profits from elsewhere. For instance, if you decided to open a coffee shop and Costa were just along the road. You don't have the overheads but decide to offer better quality and so can match the Costa price. They then sell their coffee at £1 a cup (instead of £2.50) which is actually selling at a loss but subsidised by profits at other shops? That removes any competitive position and you would regard it as unfair competition and it's to prevent that sort of behaviour.

Then there's the other angle - robbing Peter to pay Paul. It doesn't work and we had years of regulation that proved it. The ridership figures were in steep decline from the early 1950s and that's the truth, despite masses of open and hidden subsidy.

Now I know it sounds seductive to think that the profits of one should support a weaker service but it doesn't work and this is why...

What you do is divert the profits from good services and so that restricts investment etc and instead use it to prop up a load of stuff that will never pay. That means you can't invest in fleet replacement as often, don't have the scope to develop those services that have the potential to grow. What could be a star product becomes nothing more than a cash cow to support other stuff which has either outlived its usefulness or never had a role (637)

Also, don't think that the case is that regulation was a picture of better buses and better frequencies. In many cases, we actually have a lot better frequencies now than we had then. Here's a really good example....

http://www.mkdayout.co.uk/route_66_then_and_now.htm

The pattern was Swindon to Oxford (two hourly) and Swindon to Witney (two hourly) so hourly Swindon to Faringdon, and then two hourly shorts Faringdon to Oxford to make that hourly too. Seems like a good idea?

However, now it's a 30 min service throughout Swindon to Oxford but no service to Witney - by losing that bit that would NEVER pay, it allows the other service to actually grow. I think I said the same about cutting the 184 in favour of an expanded 173 (which turned out to be the 174).

The problem now is that we have a concessionary scheme that now has operators worse off, and a government that are cutting the central grants to counties. Even counties like Wiltshire, who have been really pro-public transport, are now cutting buses because it's a non statutory duty. However, cross subsidy and regulation was something that we spent years doing and it was more ruinous than what we have now.
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The problem with BoS (and Kernow too) is that there are so many vehicles which date from what I refer to as First's minimalistic seating period that it's well nigh on impossible to avoid them. I had 32714 from Falmouth to Penzance on Friday and the seats made the over 2 hour journey down on a 150/ seem like the lap of luxury - I've sat on more comfortable park benches...

Ian - I can't agree with you more. That 1999-2002 period was the nadir of comfort.

It wouldn't be so bad if some had been refurbished but all to often, what little padding was originally there disappeared by 2007...

 

[Tetchytyke]

Prior to that, busy routes could cross subsidise those routes that didn't quite pay, but we're still useful to the community, Urban or Rural. But alas now each route has to stand alone

That isn't true, sensible operators will run services that are marginal or even slightly loss-making to preserve the coherence of a network. The frayed bits at the edge preserve and protect the core.

What they won't do is operate services that are losing money hand over fist. And why should they? And, even more to the point, why should customers on the profitable routes pay more to support buses that are carting fresh air around?

I'm no fan of the current bus industry, but the current arrangement is appropriate. Councils, being democratically elected, are the correct body to decide which socially necessary but unprofitable services should run. The issue is funding at council level. And austerity budget cuts are something, it should be said, that the people of the south west overwhelmingly voted in favour of last year.

 

[freetoview33]

Just with subsidies cut and costs rising the line of what is viable has changed which means certain services are not longer viable.

If buses stay private then I think there should be greater use of the kickstarter fund that we have seen which has had some success.

Yes I admit there is a line where it is just mad to keep funding something which isnt working but if you withdrew everything that made no money a lot of people would suffer and that is why I just don't see privatisation being a good thing.

Some profits go to shareholders of companies or if it was public then it could go back into services funding those that might not quite make it otherwise and improve the network.

When EastCoast was in public ownership it made the government money. But now it is making Stagecoach money!
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Hence my ideas about Bristol buses.

 

[KendalKing]

Is this now a Balkan phishing website? Seem to be getting blocked on desktop.

I too, were having this problem last night.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Just with subsidies cut and costs rising the line of what is viable has changed which means certain services are not longer viable.

If buses stay private then I think there should be greater use of the kickstarter fund that we have seen which has had some success.

Yes I admit there is a line where it is just mad to keep funding something which isnt working but if you withdrew everything that made no money a lot of people would suffer and that is why I just don't see privatisation being a good thing.

Some profits go to shareholders of companies or if it was public then it could go back into services funding those that might not quite make it otherwise and improve the network.

When EastCoast was in public ownership it made the government money. But now it is making Stagecoach money!
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Hence my ideas about Bristol buses.

History lesson..... The good old days of the National Bus Company. In 1975, it lost £19m - that's £179m in today's money. From 1969-75, it lost £31m despite £122m in subsidy and grants - that's £291m lost DESPITE getting over £1.1 bn in subsidy. That's why it was privatised!

I don't know how old you are but I grew up in the regulated world, the son of an NBC driver. I saw time and again how good services were held back by unremunerative loss makers despite the overt grants (like central grant) or hidden subsidy (like the new bus grant). The best advice I can give is to attend a bus rally and see if you can buy something like an NBC timetable and then compare to the services you have now. It is quite enlightening.

Do not think that cross subsidy works. It doesn't - it abstracts investment from one place in order to prop up something that it shouldn't. And in what way is First making a killing - it can't even make money with FSA!!

The problem we now have is those wretched Tories are slashing Central and Local Government by up to 25% and in the bigger, more rural counties, that means that even statutory responsibilities are struggling to be paid for. NOTE: First did actually retain certain services on a use it or lose it basis (like the Sunday 377) and the early evening services like the 28, 21 etc after SCC subsidies were cut as they recognised the greater good of having those in terms of overall patronage.
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I too, were having this problem last night.

Seems ok now though - gave my credit card details for an admin charge (related to the Nigerian Oil Ministry) and seems to be fine now

 

[CD]

History lesson..... The good old days of the National Bus Company. In 1975, it lost £19m - that's £179m in today's money. From 1969-75, it lost £31m despite £122m in subsidy and grants - that's £291m lost DESPITE getting over £1.1 bn in subsidy. That's why it was privatised!

I don't know how old you are but I grew up in the regulated world, the son of an NBC driver. I saw time and again how good services were held back by unremunerative loss makers despite the overt grants (like central grant) or hidden subsidy (like the new bus grant). The best advice I can give is to attend a bus rally and see if you can buy something like an NBC timetable and then compare to the services you have now. It is quite enlightening.

In 1970 I was a NBC driver for United Counties in Luton. It wasn't me that lost all that money, honest !!:roll: