• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Driving a steam locomotive and tender backwards.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Harlesden

Member
Joined
23 Jun 2010
Messages
968
Location
LONDON NW10
Necessary on occasions but not quite sure why. Must be very awkward with all the controls facing away from the direction of travel with the driver needing to be constantly facing them and the fireman busily shovelling. Is there a third man in the cab these days acting as a lookout, assigned to stand facing the direction of travel?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Spagnoletti

Member
Joined
23 Sep 2008
Messages
151
Location
Chester
I always wondered how a steam train with two coaches behind could leave a single track branch.

The 1950 BR rule book forbids propelling trains except under specific circumstances, one being to use an autocoach, so the driver would actually be at the front of the train and in control of the brakes and regulator.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_Autocoach
 
Last edited:

ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,399
Location
UK
The 1950 BR rule book forbids propelling trains except under specific circumstances

What does the 2016 rule book state ?

I know at least two places where there is a movement from other than the leading cab every day. One is on the mainline.
 

Mvann

Member
Joined
19 Mar 2010
Messages
790
Location
Peterborough
There used to be a speed limit imposed on tender engines hauling tender first. I'm also pretty sure that on rail tours, there is a traction inspector on board.
 

randyrippley

Established Member
Joined
21 Feb 2016
Messages
5,082
If I remember history correctly, didn't the passenger locos on the S&DJR routinely run backwards when heading north?
 

chorleyjeff

Member
Joined
3 May 2013
Messages
673
Necessary on occasions but not quite sure why. Must be very awkward with all the controls facing away from the direction of travel with the driver needing to be constantly facing them and the fireman busily shovelling. Is there a third man in the cab these days acting as a lookout, assigned to stand facing the direction of travel?

Tank engines often went backwards in normal traffic and I guess the controls were laid out as in tender engines.
It was quite normal for tender engines to tavel tender first but were limited to, I think, 40 mph. Quite a few engines were fitted with tnder cabs so drivers could see where they were going without looking over thetender or sticking their head out of the cabside. The ex L&Y certainly used tender engines backwards on passenger trains when necessary - have seen pictures of Crabs doing soon the Calder Valley line. On branch lines there would be no choice but to travel one waytender first unless there was a turntable at the end. The KWVR was sucha branch line. And firemen didn't spend all their time shovelling. Itwas part of their duty to assist the driver in sighting signals.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,793
Location
Nottingham
What does the 2016 rule book state ?

I know at least two places where there is a movement from other than the leading cab every day. One is on the mainline.

I believe it is authorised by local instruction in specific places, such as between Derby station and the RTC yard.
 

matt

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
30 Jun 2005
Messages
7,812
Location
Rugby
There used to be a speed limit imposed on tender engines hauling tender first. I'm also pretty sure that on rail tours, there is a traction inspector on board.

On the mainline today tender first running is limited to 45mph.
 

E&W Lucas

Established Member
Joined
21 Jan 2010
Messages
1,358
Necessary on occasions but not quite sure why. Must be very awkward with all the controls facing away from the direction of travel with the driver needing to be constantly facing them and the fireman busily shovelling. Is there a third man in the cab these days acting as a lookout, assigned to stand facing the direction of travel?

You've made two false assumptions, which are what is confusing you.

1. Visibility is obstructed in either direction on a steam loco. Team work in sighting signals is essential in either direction. Firemen are required to assist in keeping a look out, and must be disengaged from physically firing when necessary to do so. There is far, far more to firing a loco than just shovelling rock; the latter is not a continuous process rather.

2. Drivers do not need to be facing controls, or constantly hands on with them. Easy enough to adjust something when you need to. Driving trains is a totally different concept to road vehicles.

Any limits imposed on tender first running are due to the suitability of the tender itself for being propelled. Propelling a train is a totally different matter to tender first running, which was/ is perfectly normal and acceptable on low speed lines. You'll see it every day on the Esk Valley, come the summer months.
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
8,383
Tender-first running was "normal practice" in some circumstances to the degree that a few locos were fitted with 'tender cabs' to provide better weather protection.

My impression is that getting ****ed on when it rained was of more concern to the crews than issues of visibility or handling the controls!

:D
 

randyrippley

Established Member
Joined
21 Feb 2016
Messages
5,082
just remembered I've seen four or five Youtube videos of Black 5's or BR Standards running tender first on passenger services toward Carnforth on the Barrow line in the last days of steam. I don't know if it was normal practice, but it seems strange that all the films seem to show that way of working. Was there a turntable problem at Barrow at the end?
 

thenorthern

Established Member
Joined
27 May 2013
Messages
4,103
Running tender first is common place on steam railways today but its strange that it was at one point rare.

Don't some of the diesel shunters only have cab controls in one direction?

just remembered I've seen four or five Youtube videos of Black 5's or BR Standards running tender first on passenger services toward Carnforth on the Barrow line in the last days of steam. I don't know if it was normal practice, but it seems strange that all the films seem to show that way of working. Was there a turntable problem at Barrow at the end?

I have seen images of trains on what is now the Furness Line running tender first so I think it was common on that line.

Until around 2008 the steam special trains on that line terminated at Sellafield because there was a triangular junction there where they could turn around as they were banned beyond Maryport because of low tunnels.
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,075
If I remember history correctly, didn't the passenger locos on the S&DJR routinely run backwards when heading north?

Makes sense to run tender-first through tunnels anyway, especially when single-bore...
I've got a picture somewhere of a steam special in Slovenia about to set off tendr-first from Bohinjska Bistrica into a 6.3-km long tunnel!
A
 

chorleyjeff

Member
Joined
3 May 2013
Messages
673
Not generally, no.

How about the Ulverston to Lakeside branch.
Locos ran round their. trains at Ulverston if from the East and South.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Tender-first running was "normal practice" in some circumstances to the degree that a few locos were fitted with 'tender cabs' to provide better weather protection.

My impression is that getting ****ed on when it rained was of more concern to the crews than issues of visibility or handling the controls!

:D

Yes. Better than a canvas sheet.
My comment was in the context of the original post.
 

Wavertreelad

Member
Joined
24 Feb 2013
Messages
709
It was common on the Edge Hill Gridiron for locomotives to run tender first as some freight trains to reversed up the entire length of bank. The one problem this created was the locomotive then had to wait for the train to be gravity shunted before the brake van rolled down the gradient to be coupled back up to the locomotive. Trains with locomotive on the front going up the bank, would usually be held whilst the locomotive ran round the train and waited for the brake van to be gravity shunted down to the waiting locomotive. Then it was off to Edge Hill tender first.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
17,867
Location
Airedale
How about the Ulverston to Lakeside branch.
Locos ran round their. trains at Ulverston if from the East and South.

Plenty of odd examples, but largely branch lines, including Swanage (Pacifics only) and Lymington on summer Saturdays. Though there was an Exeter- Axminster return booked for a WC pacific too.

I was specifically referring to the S&DJR - I thought Highbridge had a turntable, so the only working I could think of was the Bailey Gate milk.
 

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
13,472
Location
Caerphilly
You regularly had the local pick up freights which would call at every gatepost running tender first if no turning facilities available.
 

randyrippley

Established Member
Joined
21 Feb 2016
Messages
5,082
If I remember history correctly, didn't the passenger locos on the S&DJR routinely run backwards when heading north?


from the Wikipaedia entry re the S&D 7F class
" As the locomotives were initially too large for some of the turntables, it was envisaged that they would spend half their time travelling in reverse. Consequently, they were fitted with tablet exchanging apparatus on both sides of the locomotive. In addition, the first six were equipped with cab tenders, but these were later removed circa 1920"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S&DJR_7F_2-8-0

I'm sure I've read that the 9F class also had the same problem
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,793
Location
Nottingham
Do main line certified steam locos carry a second TPWS antenna for reverse running? I know the antenna has to be within a certain distance behind the first wheel otherwise the signal might have returned to red by the time the antenna gets to the TPWS loop.
 

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
6,042
Location
North Wales
Running tender first is common place on steam railways today but its strange that it was at one point rare.
To take the Anglesey Central Railway (Gaerwen - Amlwch) as an example, it never had a turntable in its 150+ year history. Originally they planned to use Fairlie locos which would run equally well either way, but when they got rid of these they didn't feel the need to build a turntable.
Don't some of the diesel shunters only have cab controls in one direction?
Yes, and some mainline locos too (see Class 20). Visibility was no worse than on some of the steam locos they replaced.
 

RichmondCommu

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2010
Messages
6,912
Location
Richmond, London
Tender-first running was "normal practice" in some circumstances to the degree that a few locos were fitted with 'tender cabs' to provide better weather protection.

My impression is that getting ****ed on when it rained was of more concern to the crews than issues of visibility or handling the controls!

:D

Hellifield based 3F's and later on 4F's were fitted with tender cabs for working snow ploughs on the S & C.
 

ungreat

Member
Joined
11 Nov 2006
Messages
965
Do main line certified steam locos carry a second TPWS antenna for reverse running? I know the antenna has to be within a certain distance behind the first wheel otherwise the signal might have returned to red by the time the antenna gets to the TPWS loop.

Am I being thick here.......I've been driving trains now for 29 years,and have never heard of a TPWS antenna. TPWS magnets yes,not antenna. Our trains use the AWS magnets for the TPWS system,as I imagine most UK trains do
What is that? Some sort of strange insect headgear for trains?
 
Last edited:

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
6,232
Location
Torbay
Am I being thick here.......I've been driving trains now for 29 years,and have never heard of a TPWS antenna. TPWS magnets yes,not antenna. Our trains use the AWS magnets for the TPWS system,as I imagine most UK trains do

Technically TPWS DOES use a form of short range antenna to broadcast from trackside and detect the various frequencies of signals onboard, unlike AWS which very definitely uses magnets. Perhaps we should just use the generic term transponder to avoid confusion!

What is that? Some sort of strange insect headgear for trains?

LOL
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top