Should We Leave the EU?

[miami]

I don't think anybody would seriously suggest it would prevent them but it would certainly make them less likely. Or shall we just wait for a similar atrocity here and then think about closing the stable door long after the horse has bolted?

Could you explain which specific terrorist attack in europe would have been stopped by the a country adopting more stringent border checks than the UK does at the moment? (Exclude any Irish related terrorism as the border checks between Ireland and Britain are unrelated to the EU - at least they are at the moment)

Or are you saying that a condition of the UK remaining will be we join schengen?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think anybody would seriously suggest it would prevent them but it would certainly make them less likely. Or shall we just wait for a similar atrocity here and then think about closing the stable door long after the horse has bolted?

You mean like July 7th 2005? When four men travelled from the foreign country of Leeds to blow themselves up in London? What border checks would have stopped that? Passport check at Luton train station perhaps?

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't think anybody would seriously suggest it would prevent them but it would certainly make them less likely.

On what basis do you reach that conclusion?

Every terrorist attack that's ever happened in the UK has been committed by a UK citizen. Yes, even 7/7, when four men secretly smuggled themselves all the way from, er, West Yorkshire.

I'd also point out that the UK isn't in Schengen, and we can continue to remain in the EU without joining Schengen.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I don't think anybody would seriously suggest it would prevent them but it would certainly make them less likely. Or shall we just wait for a similar atrocity here and then think about closing the stable door long after the horse has bolted?

How would it do that?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Passport check at Luton train station perhaps?

Don't give them ideas

 

[anme]

This mornings dreadful events at Brussels Airport highlight the reality of allowing free movement throughout Europe

We do not know who carried out the attacks and we certainly don't know anything about their nationality or immigration status.

To twist the events of this morning too further your own political views is extremely offensive and I hope you will withdraw your comment and apologise to everyone here.

 

[pemma]

This mornings dreadful events at Brussels Airport highlight the reality of allowing free movement throughout Europe

Belgium is part of the Schengen area, the UK is not.

The attacks could well have been carried out by Belgium nationals.

Not being in the EU wouldn't have stopped the 7/7 attacks in London as they were carried out by British nationals who supported a terrorist organisation. If anything could have prevented that it would have been not having world leaders involved in starting a war in the Middle East meeting in Britain.

 

[Antman]

On what basis do you reach that conclusion?

Every terrorist attack that's ever happened in the UK has been committed by a UK citizen. Yes, even 7/7, when four men secretly smuggled themselves all the way from, er, West Yorkshire.

I'd also point out that the UK isn't in Schengen, and we can continue to remain in the EU without joining Schengen.

I am aware that the UK isn't in Schengen although that is almost irrelevant given how easily illegals are getting across the channel.

So you think all terrorists come from West Yorkshire?

 

[pemma]

So you think all terrorists come from West Yorkshire?

When has a terrorist attack ever occurred in the UK which could have been prevented simply by not being in the EU?

I'll give you a clue it starts with N and ends in r and there's a v in there as well.

I wouldn't be surprised if France suspends the Schengen this summer for Euro 16, if it's not done EU wide.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I am aware that the UK isn't in Schengen although that is almost irrelevant given how easily illegals are getting across the channel.

So you think all terrorists come from West Yorkshire?

Do you have any idea how many migrants are in the UK and how many came illegally from across the channel? An absolutely tiny amount.

It's almost like you're just acting on pure xenophobia, and have no idea what's actually happening.

 

[miami]

On what basis do you reach that conclusion?

Every terrorist attack that's ever happened in the UK has been committed by a UK citizen.

I don't believe that's true. Many IRA attacks were by Irish citizens, and more recently I don't believe Kafeel Ahmed was British.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Do you have any idea how many migrants are in the UK and how many came illegally from across the channel? An absolutely tiny amount.

It's almost like you're just acting on pure xenophobia, and have no idea what's actually happening.

Guys, maybe we can calm down a bit on this?

As a result of today's attacks, there are going to be a fair few people who have friends or family in Brussels, who may not yet know whether people they know are still alive. Almost certainly, some people are never going to see their husbands/wives/boyfriends/girlfriends/children/etc. again. Some people presumably have just suffered horrendous injuries that may be with them for the rest of their lives. It's not at all implausible that a few people affected by this may be people who read railforums.co.uk.

I appreciate that how best to prevent terrorism is an issue that may well be relevant to whether we should or should not be in the EU, but I feel somewhat uncomfortable seeing these arguments being raised in such an overtly political manner while the authorities in Belgium are still attempting to deal with the events of today, and it hasn't even yet - so far as I can tell - been determined who all the victims are. And I feel especially uncomfortable seeing people throwing accusations of xenophobia around at such a time.

I've noticed that the practice on railforums seems to be the person who starts a thread gets some authority to indicate the subject matter of the thread. Can I therefore suggest, as the person who originally started this thread, that discussion of how our membership of the EU relates to terrorist attacks in Europe could be considered off-topic for this thread, at least for a couple of days - say, until Friday? (I've no idea how much weight that carries in railforums rules, but it would seem polite...)

 

[Antman]

When has a terrorist attack ever occurred in the UK which could have been prevented simply by not being in the EU?

I'll give you a clue it starts with N and ends in r and there's a v in there as well.

I wouldn't be surprised if France suspends the Schengen this summer for Euro 16, if it's not done EU wide.

And I'll give you a clue, what a load of tosh. How can you possibly know that?

Obviously a borderless Europe makes any potential terrorists life a lot easier.

 

[miami]

And I'll give you a clue, what a load of tosh. How can you possibly know that?

Obviously a borderless Europe makes any potential terrorists life a lot easier.

Ahh, you're referring to butterfly effects? Touche. Although my understanding is these events tend to cancel out on a macro scale.

The UK has borders with all countries in Europe (and the rest of the world) aside from Ireland. Ireland is not part of schengen. If the UK left the EU, would Ireland be able to stay out of Schengen? Would we have borders between Northern Ireland and the rest of the island? Would we see a resurgence in the troubles that plagued us in the last century? Probably not.

But unless you're proposing a visa for every EU citizen we'll have the exact same border controls as we do now.

Perhaps you'll have an ESTA type form:

Do you seek to engage or have
you ever engaged in terrorist
activities, espionage, sabotage
or genocide?
Yes No

That'll stop 'em!

Even if you did though, and the ESTA question would stop them, as far as I can see there hasn't been a single terror attack in the UK that's been committed by a EU but not-British-not Irish citizen.

Perhaps you'll simply have a total shutdown of all Muslims entering the UK?

 

[furnessvale]

Every terrorist attack that's ever happened in the UK has been committed by a UK citizen. Yes, even 7/7, when four men secretly smuggled themselves all the way from, er, West Yorkshire.

Far more terrorist attacks are thwarted by the security services than actually succeed.

What we mere mortals will never know is whether there is any "offshore" element to those thwarted attacks. I should imagine thwarting offshore attacks would be easier than domestic, no matter what the state of border controls.

 

[miami]

Guys, maybe we can calm down a bit on this?

As a result of today's attacks, there are going to be a fair few people who have friends or family in Brussels, who may not yet know whether people they know are still alive. Almost certainly, some people are never going to see their husbands/wives/boyfriends/girlfriends/children/etc. again. Some people presumably have just suffered horrendous injuries that may be with them for the rest of their lives. It's not at all implausible that a few people affected by this may be people who read railforums.co.uk.

This happens all the time. Dozens die on the roads of the UK every week, we don't stop talking about road safety.

 

[TheKnightWho]

And I'll give you a clue, what a load of tosh. How can you possibly know that?

Obviously a borderless Europe makes any potential terrorists life a lot easier.

Asserting yourself correct does not make you correct. How does it make their life easier?

Why should we not put up borders for counties in the UK by your logic?

 

[Busaholic]

Any predictions now the vote is a mere (!) three months away?
I thought at the outset 60/40 in favour of Remain: I'm only revising it now to 57/43 because the Leave camp are probably going to be a bit more inclined to vote than Remainers are. Like with the Scottish referendum, I suspect more current 'don't knows' will, if they vote at all, vote for the status quo.
Turnout? I'm going with 68%.

 

[Butts]

Funny how things change over the years.....

In 1975 Scotland as a whole had the UK's smallest pro-eec vote 58/41 and the only two Voting Areas in the UK that voted to leave...

Western Isles and Shetland

ps the SNP were also vehemently anti EEC in those days

 

[St Rollox]

Funny how things change over the years.....

In 1975 Scotland as a whole had the UK's smallest pro-eec vote 58/41 and the only two Voting Areas in the UK that voted to leave...

Western Isles and Shetland

ps the SNP were also vehemently anti EEC in those days

As were a lot of the Left.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A lot of the places in England were Ukip are strong were pro Common Market in 1975.

 

[Butts]

A lot of the places in England were Ukip are strong were pro Common Market in 1975.

All Areas of England were pro-common market in 1975.

The highest areas of dissention were Tyneside,Manchester,West Midlands,Durham,Yorkshire none registering more than about a third against.

Conversely in Scotland as well as the two "out areas" several more were well up into the 40 % out. Only Borders at 27% was under 30%.

Northern Ireland was also a close shave with only 52% voting yes.

 

[Busaholic]

All Areas of England were pro-common market in 1975.

The highest areas of dissention were Tyneside,Manchester,West Midlands,Durham,Yorkshire none registering more than about a third against.

Conversely in Scotland as well as the two "out areas" several more were well up into the 40 % out. Only Borders at 27% was under 30%.

Northern Ireland was also a close shave with only 52% voting yes.

In 1975 we had only been in the Common Market a few months, so there had been no time for people in the UK to be disillusioned with it. A lot of us thought it an unnecessary referendum - we should have had it before going in, if we were going to have it at all. The Status Quo was never in doubt.

 

[Butts]

In 1975 we had only been in the Common Market a few months, so there had been no time for people in the UK to be disillusioned with it. A lot of us thought it an unnecessary referendum - we should have had it before going in, if we were going to have it at all. The Status Quo was never in doubt.

And still are not.....a fine Band

 

[Blamethrower]

We do not know who carried out the attacks and we certainly don't know anything about their nationality or immigration status.

To twist the events of this morning too further your own political views is extremely offensive and I hope you will withdraw your comment and apologise to everyone here.

Will you grow up?

It a debate, stop tying to close it with mud-slinging
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On what basis do you reach that conclusion?

Every terrorist attack that's ever happened in the UK has been committed by a UK citizen. Yes, even 7/7, when four men secretly smuggled themselves all the way from, er, West Yorkshire.

I'd also point out that the UK isn't in Schengen, and we can continue to remain in the EU without joining Schengen.

Never heard of the IRA then? Jeez

 

[Steveman]

One of the IN's main reasons for staying in the EU blown out of the water by Sir Richard Dearlove former head of MI6 who does know what he's talking about.

The truth about Brexit from a national security perspective is that the cost to Britain would be low.

Though the UK participates in various European and Brussels-based security bodies, they are of little consequence: the Club de Berne, made up of European Security Services; the Club de Madrid, made up of European Intelligence Services; Europol; and the Situation Centre in the European Commission are generally speaking little more than forums for the exchange of analysis and views.

The crucial practical business of counter-terrorism and counter-espionage is conducted, even in Europe, through bilateral and very occasionally trilateral relationships. Brussels has little or nothing to do with them.
European defence and security policy has proved to be little more than an aspiration.A European Rapid Reaction Force has not matured into an effective expression of Europe’s aggregated military power. Britain’s defence interests remain firmly hitched to Nato and a number of strong bilateral relationships, with France as our most important continental partner.

Would Brexit damage our defence and intelligence relationship with the United States, which outweighs anything European by many factors of 10? I conclude confidently that no, it would not.

The crucial practical business of counter-terrorism and counter-espionage is conducted, even in Europe, through bilateral and very occasionally trilateral relationships. Brussels has little or nothing to do with them,

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/opinions/brexit-would-not-damage-uk-security


Who do you think knows the real truth ? An ex "M" or various politicians with EU aspirations and agendas some of whom like Clegg are drawing more than one EU pension.
When you learn that all EU pensions are dependent upon active and continuous support of the EU for life and can be removed if any anti-EU activity is practised it's no surprise that the Kinnocks, Cleggs and Mandelsons of this world are so gushing about the EU however disastrous it's rapidly becoming.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

A former head of GCHQ has been stating the exact opposite.



The truth probably is it won't make any real difference; if someone is determined to get into the country to cause mischief, do they really expect them to use a formal border crossing point? No - they'll just turn up on a remote beach in the middle of the night on a dinghy. We can't watch every inch of our coastline 24/7/365.

 

[TheKnightWho]

One of the IN's main reasons for staying in the EU blown out of the water by Sir Richard Dearlove former head of MI6 who does know what he's talking about.



http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/opinions/brexit-would-not-damage-uk-security


Who do you think knows the real truth ? An ex "M" or various politicians with EU aspirations and agendas some of whom like Clegg are drawing more than one EU pension.
When you learn that all EU pensions are dependent upon active and continuous support of the EU for life and can be removed if any anti-EU activity is practised it's no surprise that the Kinnocks, Cleggs and Mandelsons of this world are so gushing about the EU however disastrous it's rapidly becoming.

So on the security front it would have a small cost if we left. That's not In blown out of the water - that just shows that one of Out's main reasons for wanting to leave is actually a bad thing, because it has a small downside!

Christ - you really will delude yourself, won't you.

Also your conspiracy theories might fly in the Daily Express comments, but unfortunately most people know that that kind of rubbish has no place in serious debate. When the Outers are resorting to this kind of rubbish, it really is obvious they're desperate!

 

[Steveman]

So on the security front it would have a small cost if we left. That's not In blown out of the water - that just shows that one of Out's main reasons for wanting to leave is actually a bad thing, because it has a small downside!

Christ - you really will delude yourself, won't you.

Also your conspiracy theories might fly in the Daily Express comments, but unfortunately most people know that that kind of rubbish has no place in serious debate. When the Outers are resorting to this kind of rubbish, it really is obvious they're desperate!

How unlike you rubbishing the views of an ex- MI5 chief, I mean you're experience of counter terrorism is no doubt legendary and it stands to reason you would know more about the subject.

If you're old enough to vote then vote IN, I will be voting OUT.

 

[miami]

A former head of GCHQ has been stating the exact opposite.

The truth probably is it won't make any real difference; if someone is determined to get into the country to cause mischief, do they really expect them to use a formal border crossing point? No - they'll just turn up on a remote beach in the middle of the night on a dinghy. We can't watch every inch of our coastline 24/7/365.

Actually chances are they will. They'll simply lie on the visa waiver form and say they don't intend to commit a terrorist offence!

However if London, France, Belgium, etc are anything to go by the people wanting to kill us are our fellow countrymen.

Leaving the EU will either harm our relations with other countries that's essential for the real anti-terrorism work that GCHQ, MI5, MI6 etc do, or it will do nothing. Is anyone claiming it will improve?

Border controls may stay in France, or they may be brought back to the UK. Funny how the 3 EEA countries the leave campaign harp on about - Norway, Iceland and Switzerland - are all part of schengen and therefore have open borders. The UK of course doesn't have to be part of schengen, although when we need to renegotiate a trading deal with europe, what will they demand?

It seems that remaining means more of a same - a very fortunate place in europe, where we pay less than our fair share (the rebate), where our poorer areas like cornwall and lancashire get more investment that's not lost to Osborne's austerity measures, where we control our own borders,

and we're going to throw that away in the hope we'll be able to negotiate something better.

But what will we demand? What EU directives will be the first to go? Perhaps the teabag recycling ban? Or the ban on 7 year olds blowing up baloons?

 

[TheKnightWho]

How unlike you rubbishing the views of an ex- MI5 chief, I mean you're experience of counter terrorism is no doubt legendary and it stands to reason you would know more about the subject.

If you're old enough to vote then vote IN, I will be voting OUT.

I'm not rubbishing what he's saying at all. I'm simply stating what he has said himself. That it would be a small disadvantage to leave the EU from the point of view of security!

Do you even read what you post? No wonder nobody is taking you seriously!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Leaving the EU will either harm our relations with other countries that's essential for the real anti-terrorism work that GCHQ, MI5, MI6 etc do, or it will do nothing. Is anyone claiming it will improve?

This. This is exactly why what Steveman is claiming is so absurd. It's another situation of him claiming cooperation can happen without the EU, and trying to have his cake and eat it, when unfortunately that isn't how the real-world works.

 

[Steveman]

I'm not rubbishing what he's saying at all. I'm simply stating what he has said himself. That it would be a small disadvantage to leave the EU from the point of view of security!

Do you even read what you post? No wonder nobody is taking you seriously!

Using exclamation marks has me really worried.

 

[Antman]

I'm not rubbishing what he's saying at all. I'm simply stating what he has said himself. That it would be a small disadvantage to leave the EU from the point of view of security!

Do you even read what you post? No wonder nobody is taking you seriously!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


This. This is exactly why what Steveman is claiming is so absurd.

You calling somebody else absurd.............words fail me

Do you think anybody takes you seriously?