Windermere May 2016

[mikestone1952]

The afternoon trains have disappeared from RTT - when I last looked they were showing dmu rather than 185. I am guessing the poor path of the 18.03 Windermere has something to do with it - it had to wait at both Oxenholme and Lancaster for a path.

 

[TBSchenker]

I had a look earlier for June, there is a new 1025 Preston-Windermere class 156, which I presume will then stay the afternoon on the branch. This is split from the Manchester Oxford Road-Barrow service at Preston (which currently splits but the front goes to Barrow in service, and the rear goes to Lancaster ECS).

The present Blackpool/Windermere service that splits at Preston will still split, but the 1045 departure will go to Barrow.

 

[Mordac]

185 operated services have always shown up as DMU pathed, at least whenever I've looked at them. And not just in the Windermere branch either.

 

[euryalus]

I don't understand the initial post. What is the difference between a Class '185' diesel multiple unit and a "dmu"?

 

[55z]

Look at the timing details DMU's re timed for 75 mph 158/159's are 90 mph whilst 185's are 100 mph even if the line speed is below these speeds all are shown as DMU's with different speeds. Windermere branch becomes operated by Arriva Rail North from 1st April, 2016 as are all trains at Barrow-in -Furness.

 

[ScotTrains]

Will there still be First class on the Windermere and Barrow routes?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Will there still be First class on the Windermere and Barrow routes?

I suspect not.

 

[yorkie]

The afternoon trains have disappeared from RTT - when I last looked they were showing dmu rather than 185. I am guessing the poor path of the 18.03 Windermere has something to do with it - it had to wait at both Oxenholme and Lancaster for a path.

I don't understand. Can you clarify please?

Is this a discussion about timetabling and allocations? If so it's not in the right forum.

 

[Roose]

Will there still be First class on the Windermere and Barrow routes?

Depends on the policy for the Northern Connect services (minimum of eight to/from Barrow, minimum of four to/from Windermere) which will provide part of the services on these routes.

I haven't seen any mention of first class in any of the announcements relating to the franchise awards or the new or refurbished stock to operate these routes.

 

[1D53]

Part of a wider diagram shake up post franchise change. Would appear no Loco Hauled run to Preston as part of this.

 

[thenorthern]

According to RTT some of the Barrow-in-Furness trains from Manchester are going to be run as Class 15x units.

In allocation term Arriva Northern have done the right thing for the Windermere Branch as the line has ha very low line speed and its a waste in my opinion to have a Class 185 or the 175s used before that.

 

[matt]

Part of a wider diagram shake up post franchise change. Would appear no Loco Hauled run to Preston as part of this.

What makes you say that? The 1004 from Preston after May is shown as timed as a unit in RTT but the incoming 0515 Carlisle to Preston is still showing as timed for a loco.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Will there still be First Class on the Windermere and Barrow routes?

With regards to Windermere, as I have said on previous threads, my good lady wife and I had always used the First Class section of the Class 185 for day return trips to Windermere, but from what I gather, the service being translated to another franchise will mean different units with no First Class accommodation, which will now leave Windermere, in addition to the ATW Class 175 services to both Hereford and Ludlow (our regular day visits) with no First Class accommodation.

 

[childwallblues]

Will there still be First class on the Windermere and Barrow routes?

Not if it is 156 operated.

 

[D1009]

With regards to Windermere, as I have said on previous threads, my good lady wife and I had always used the First Class section of the Class 185 for day return trips to Windermere, but from what I gather, the service being translated to another franchise will mean different units with no First Class accommodation, which will now leave Windermere, in addition to the ATW Class 175 services to both Hereford and Ludlow (our regular day visits) with no First Class accommodation.

You'll still be able to get a Pendolino to Oxenholme.

 

[PHILIPE]

The info should have been in systems at least 12 weeks before commencement.
RTT shows arriving train as NT and departure as TP and vice versa in some cases.

 

[Greybeard33]

The info should have been in systems at least 12 weeks before commencement.
RTT shows arriving train as NT and departure as TP and vice versa in some cases.

ARN now seems to have sorted out its diagramming - see this thread for details. The changes enable ARN to borrow only four 185s from FTPE instead of five. All Windermere services remain 185 operated, but the only weekday service from the Airport will be cut back to start from Preston. And the evening direct service from Windermere to the Airport will be cut back to Preston, arriving there 1 minute after the Blackpool to Airport service departs. I imagine there will be rumblings of discontent in Cumbria!

I guess that 75mph units cannot be used for Windermere services because of pathing issues on the WCML.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Are they not coupling up at Preston?

 

[Greybeard33]

Are they not coupling up at Preston?

The 10:15 from Windermere will still to couple to another 185 from Blackpool and continue to the Airport as now.

The 09:29 double 185 from the Airport will still divide at Preston, with one portion going to Blackpool, but the other portion will go to Barrow instead of Windermere as now. Instead there will be a separate 185 service from Preston to Windermere at 10:29, 4 minutes before the double from the Airport arrives. This Windermere unit is off a service from Barrow.

The 18:03 from Windermere currently runs singly all the way to the Airport, because the accompanying service from Blackpool is formed from a pair of 156s. This service will be retimed to leave Windermere at 18:13 and terminate at Preston at 19:10, 1 minute after the 156s from Blackpool have departed. This 185 will then form the 20:08 Preston to Barrow.

The reduction in Windermere-Airport services contributes to saving a 185 diagram - see http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2507324#post2507324 for full diagrams.

 

[ScotTrains]

It's good news there will still be First Class on the Oxenholme to Windermere branch. I've used it a number of times over the years.

 

[Class 170101]

The 09:29 double 185 from the Airport will still divide at Preston, with one portion going to Blackpool, but the other portion will go to Barrow instead of Windermere as now. Instead there will be a separate 185 service from Preston to Windermere at 10:29, 4 minutes before the double from the Airport arrives. This Windermere unit is off a service from Barrow.

Change at Preston and Lancaster from May timetable change. Same trains Lancaster to Windermere and Manchester to Preston for both timetables. The May timetable requires use of 10:41 VT service from Preston to Lancaster.

The 18:03 from Windermere currently runs singly all the way to the Airport, because the accompanying service from Blackpool is formed from a pair of 156s. This service will be retimed to leave Windermere at 18:13 and terminate at Preston at 19:10, 1 minute after the 156s from Blackpool have departed. This 185 will then form the 20:08 Preston to Barrow.

The 18:13 re-timing you refer to is still 18:03 from May to July but waits around at Oxenholme instead of Preston. The 1 minute miss at Preston is evident as where as today the train waits at Preston 18:58 to 19:15 and so connects with the Blackpool train Thats a poor show between TPE and Northern.

Arrival at Manchester is about 20 minutes later from May.

 

[Greybeard33]

Change at Preston and Lancaster from May timetable change. Same trains Lancaster to Windermere and Manchester to Preston for both timetables. The May timetable requires use of 10:41 VT service from Preston to Lancaster.

Not ideal for holidaymakers with luggage, especially since the 6 minute change at Lancaster involves crossing the footbridge from Platform 3 to Platform 5.

The 18:13 re-timing you refer to is still 18:03 from May to July but waits around at Oxenholme instead of Preston. The 1 minute miss at Preston is evident as where as today the train waits at Preston 18:58 to 19:15 and so connects with the Blackpool train Thats a poor show between TPE and Northern.

Arrival at Manchester is about 20 minutes later from May.

I think they have "tweaked" that service again since I looked at RTT, to move the 10 minute dwell from Windermere to Oxenholme. The adjustment has restored the connection at Oxenholme to the VT 18:32 to Euston. For those "in the know", this will provide a 6 minute connection at Preston to the Blackpool-Airport train. However, the official minimum connection time at Preston is 8 minutes, so it does not show up in journey planners!

I do not understand why the 18:03 from Windermere cannot keep its current path to Preston, ahead of the Virgin service. Even after adding a couple of minutes "padding" to the arrival time, for a terminating service, this would still give a 9 minute connection time at Preston.
Edit: Unless it is to enable a 75mph Sprinter to be substituted for the 185? RTT shows the diagram to be timed for a 100mph DMU throughout, but it is not interworked or portion worked with any other 185 diagram, and, apart from the Windermere stint, the other workings are between Barrow and Lancaster/Preston.

 

[aelius]

http://m.thewestmorlandgazette.co.u...eady_to_stand_up_and_fight_for_your_railways/

This article from the Chairman of the Lakes Line Rail Action Group suggests 185s will go later in the year.

 

[philjo]

I see that the current 14:45 from Windermere will in future run at 14:58 so will miss the connection at Oxenholme to Manchester.
will now need to change onto VT at Oxenholme ant change at Preston onto a Northern service to Manchester. looks like most afternoon departures will need 2 changes to get to Manchester. currently most connect at Oxenholme into the Manchester service.

 

[D1009]

What proportion of people from the Windermere branch want to go to Manchester as opposed to anywhere else possible from there? I'd have expected there to be more demand to London.

 

[PHILIPE]

What proportion of people from the Windermere branch want to go to Manchester as opposed to anywhere else possible from there? I'd have expected there to be more demand to London.

People flying from Manchester Airport.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What proportion of people from the Windermere branch want to go to Manchester as opposed to anywhere else possible from there? I'd have expected there to be more demand to London.

Who in their infinite wisdom decided that there was not enough demand for day trippers from Manchester to Windermere on the remaining service provision (somewhere about 0930 from Manchester Airport) with the opportunity for the first class provision in the Class 185 units that my good lady wife and I have always used in the past.. There was the opportunity to visit the lake for a pleasure cruise or just to enjoy the shops and museums and from the bus stop outside the station, buses ran to Ambleside, etc.

Perhaps we will have to settle for visits to Grange-over-Sands and Ulverston instead in the future...

 

[ScotTrains]

How many services will actually have 1st class on the Windermere branch later in the year?
I've often travelled 1st class on this route when staying in the lake district and have often found there to be quite a healthy demand for 1st class especially during holiday periods. Removing 1st class would certainly make me think twice about taking the train to the lakes (Standard is often too busy with little luggage space).

 

[Bletchleyite]

How many services will actually have 1st class on the Windermere branch later in the year?
I've often travelled 1st class on this route when staying in the lake district and have often found there to be quite a healthy demand for 1st class especially during holiday periods. Removing 1st class would certainly make me think twice about taking the train to the lakes (Standard is often too busy with little luggage space).

The vast majority of First Class demand on TPE is because Standard is reminiscent of a London commuter operation.

Actually, no it isn't, as you have more chance of a seat on a London commuter operation.

Once the new stock arrives with the corresponding capacity increase, will it really be so popular?

 

[D1009]

Who in their infinite wisdom decided that there was not enough demand for day trippers from Manchester to Windermere on the remaining service provision (somewhere about 0930 from Manchester Airport) with the opportunity for the first class provision in the Class 185 units that my good lady wife and I have always used in the past.. There was the opportunity to visit the lake for a pleasure cruise or just to enjoy the shops and museums and from the bus stop outside the station, buses ran to Ambleside, etc.

Perhaps we will have to settle for visits to Grange-over-Sands and Ulverston instead in the future...

I'd have thought, as your location is very rural Cheshire, that you could get the chauffeur to take you to Warrington rather than Manchester Airport, where I believe the standard of First Class service offered by Virgin Trains is somewhat superior to that offered by TPE.