Stagecoach places £97million orders for new vehicles

[KendalKing]

You would think it would be easy to design a modern day 709D with 23 seats and room for a wheelchair.

There is, it's called the Optare Solo..........lol

That said, anyone enjoy the delights of Dodge(y) S56s? Now they were awful

Yes, unfortunately........There were awful, too drive as well, as to ride on.

 

[BestWestern]

The Enviro200 single deckers are the full size 11.8m variant (replacing the Enviro300), whilst the Enviro200 midibuses are the 10.8m variant. Both variants are numbered in a different series (10.8m 37???, 11.8m 26???).

Is it genuinely 'full size' though in as much as being a heavy weight (10 tons +) chassis with large diameter wheels, or is it merely a stretched midibus as per the Super Pointer Dart or those long DAF things that Arriva use?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You would think it would be easy to design a modern day 709D with 23 seats and room for a wheelchair.

The problem is that the old Merc chassis were off-the-peg light truck designs; they were rugged, high floored and front engined. This made them cheap, tough, and ideal both for nippy town services and for use on twisty country lanes. Sadly that formula just isn't transferable to modern bus design; the need for low floors brings weight, complexity and cost. These Sprinter efforts demonstrate the attempts to fit those design criteria into an existing commercial vehicle chassis, but in reality it needs a proper purpose built design to fit the bill and stand up to bus work. The Solo really is about as close as you'll get.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Beaver and the likes might have been ideal for operators, but they are terrible for passengers, particularly on the kind of rough roads you get in rural areas and speed bumps in urban areas due to the long rear overhang.

The Solo (as well as other similar shortened "proper" buses) is a far better bus for the passenger.

 

[Busaholic]

Focussing on the whole, 480 new vehicles in the coming year adds up to over 6,500 over the last decade, so, stripping out the 480, the previous 9 years saw over 6,100 enter service, that's an average of nearly 700 new vehicles p.a. Anyone care to comment on the reasons for the shortfall this year in comparison?

 

[BestWestern]

Focussing on the whole, 480 new vehicles in the coming year adds up to over 6,500 over the last decade, so, stripping out the 480, the previous 9 years saw over 6,100 enter service, that's an average of nearly 700 new vehicles p.a. Anyone care to comment on the reasons for the shortfall this year in comparison?

Is there any evidence to demonstrate that the intake was consistent in each of those past years? It may fluctuate every time.

 

[507021]

Is it genuinely 'full size' though in as much as being a heavy weight (10 tons +) chassis with large diameter wheels, or is it merely a stretched midibus as per the Super Pointer Dart or those long DAF things that Arriva use?

It's a longer midibus like the Super Dart and StreetLite Max, I just said 'full size' as it was the longest variant of the current Enviro200, which on reflection wasn't the most accurate description.

Which DAF single deckers are you referring to? The DAF SB220s (and VDL SB200s) are full size single deckers, rather than longer midibuses.

 

[BestWestern]

Which DAF single deckers are you referring to? The DAF SB220s (and VDL SB200s) are full size single deckers, rather than longer midibuses.

Yes, those; SB200s! They are classed as lightweight, despite being 12m long. The giveaway being the little Dennis Dart sized wheels. The earlier SB220 was a heavyweight chassis. To my mind, a 'proper' full size bus has a heavyweight underframe and the accompanying 22.5 inch wheels, generally weighing in on the plus side of 10 tons or so if it's a low floor effort. In current terms, this would include the Scania OmniCity, Volvo B7/B9, etc. Any of these 'stretch Dart' jobbies is a tad inferior to my neanderthal mind!

 

[Surreyman]

Focussing on the whole, 480 new vehicles in the coming year adds up to over 6,500 over the last decade, so, stripping out the 480, the previous 9 years saw over 6,100 enter service, that's an average of nearly 700 new vehicles p.a. Anyone care to comment on the reasons for the shortfall this year in comparison?

Here's a few thoughts: -
1. Capital outlay control in uncertain economic times.
2. DDA deadline, i.e this years order heavily weighted to D/decks, which cost more than S/decks(This is a 'one-off').
3. Average age and make up of Existing fleet, it is now fairly modern and increasingly standardised, i.e oldest Darts are '53 reg.
4. Older vehicles are lasting longer, there seems to be no urgency to replace '51, '02, '52, '03 Solos for instance.
5. Future Franchising issues, if for example Greater Manchester put all routes in GM out to tender, S/C might want to lease vehicles as per London.

 

[507021]

Yes, those; SB200s! They are classed as lightweight, despite being 12m long. The giveaway being the little Dennis Dart sized wheels. The earlier SB220 was a heavyweight chassis. To my mind, a 'proper' full size bus has a heavyweight underframe and the accompanying 22.5 inch wheels, generally weighing in on the plus side of 10 tons or so if it's a low floor effort. In current terms, this would include the Scania OmniCity, Volvo B7/B9, etc. Any of these 'stretch Dart' jobbies is a tad inferior to my neanderthal mind!

The SB200s aren't bad, but I prefer the Volvo, ADL, Mercedes-Benz and Scania full size single deckers as I think they have better ride quality.

Just to go back on topic, according to another website Stagecoach Merseyside are due double deckers for Gillmoss depot.

 

[Andyh82]

Focussing on the whole, 480 new vehicles in the coming year adds up to over 6,500 over the last decade, so, stripping out the 480, the previous 9 years saw over 6,100 enter service, that's an average of nearly 700 new vehicles p.a. Anyone care to comment on the reasons for the shortfall this year in comparison?

Low floor DDA conversion is pretty much complete, so orders can slow down

Evolution of Modern bus design is slowing, a bus bought today looks very similar to one purchased ten years ago, so not as much to gain replacing a E400 with an E400MMC. Ten years ago E400s would have been replacing Olympians with a dated 90s interior and step entrance.

 

[mbonwick]

OK, going to try and clear up a few points at once here.

The E200MMC at 11.9m has the same size wheels as the E300 it replaces - smaller wheels (same as the old E200) are available on shorter lengths. Obviously the E300 always was a lightweight single deck, but I wouldn't say that the long E200MMCs are just oversized MDs. There's a big difference between bolting another 20cm onto a standard Dart to make an SPD, and having a range that goes all the way up to 12m.
E200MMC at 11.9m and the Streetlite MAX only share a platform with their shorter siblings.

480 units is about the right number, for comparison:
2009 - 434
2010 - 340
2011 - 580 (but includes a major investment of 163 units in the re-aquired London ops)
2012 -390
2013 - 430
2014 - 570 (a record £100m investment, presumably mostly due to the Astromegas for Oxford Tube)
2015 - 470

So as can be seen, this year's initial order is fairly typical, but unlike other years I would suggest there is limited scope for a further "extension" order in summer.

Further, based on the numbers I've seen, potention regulation in Manchester is not being seen as a hindrance to investment - at least not this year...

Gillmoss are due two batches of E400MMCs. In fact, the only depot not getting anything new in MY&SL will be Preston.

 

[Busaholic]

Here's a few thoughts: -
1. Capital outlay control in uncertain economic times.
2. DDA deadline, i.e this years order heavily weighted to D/decks, which cost more than S/decks(This is a 'one-off').
3. Average age and make up of Existing fleet, it is now fairly modern and increasingly standardised, i.e oldest Darts are '53 reg.
4. Older vehicles are lasting longer, there seems to be no urgency to replace '51, '02, '52, '03 Solos for instance.
5. Future Franchising issues, if for example Greater Manchester put all routes in GM out to tender, S/C might want to lease vehicles as per London.

Thanks, I'd considered some, but not all, of those points.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

If 17 including the driver, might it be so they can recruit cheaper drivers for them who only require D1 rather than D?

tiny number of people with full D1 in the UK though

vs D1 (101) from pre 97 car licence with the not for hire or reward limitation

vs other full D holders

vs the lack of savign for training yourown d1 drivers ( advice often given to people lookingfor C1 other than those who want it solely for ambulance work or horse boxes is to get the full C )

 

[Bletchleyite]

True, not many *have* it, but it would be much quicker/easier to train to it as a minibus is much more like a car to drive than an actual full-size bus.

 

[fgwrich]

Do we know where the destinations of the vehicles ordered will be? I've been told Hampshire / Winchester is likely to be due to receive a load more of the Enviro 200s - It would... be a little bit nice to see some newer investment in the North of the county!

 

[507021]

OK, going to try and clear up a few points at once here.

The E200MMC at 11.9m has the same size wheels as the E300 it replaces - smaller wheels (same as the old E200) are available on shorter lengths. Obviously the E300 always was a lightweight single deck, but I wouldn't say that the long E200MMCs are just oversized MDs. There's a big difference between bolting another 20cm onto a standard Dart to make an SPD, and having a range that goes all the way up to 12m.
E200MMC at 11.9m and the Streetlite MAX only share a platform with their shorter siblings.

480 units is about the right number, for comparison:
2009 - 434
2010 - 340
2011 - 580 (but includes a major investment of 163 units in the re-aquired London ops)
2012 -390
2013 - 430
2014 - 570 (a record £100m investment, presumably mostly due to the Astromegas for Oxford Tube)
2015 - 470

So as can be seen, this year's initial order is fairly typical, but unlike other years I would suggest there is limited scope for a further "extension" order in summer.

Further, based on the numbers I've seen, potention regulation in Manchester is not being seen as a hindrance to investment - at least not this year...

Gillmoss are due two batches of E400MMCs. In fact, the only depot not getting anything new in MY&SL will be Preston.

Thanks for the clarification, much appreciated.

Glad to see Gillmoss is getting double deckers, do you have any idea which routes they're going to be used on?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The Beaver and the likes might have been ideal for operators, but they are terrible for passengers, particularly on the kind of rough roads you get in rural areas and speed bumps in urban areas due to the long rear overhang.

The Solo (as well as other similar shortened "proper" buses) is a far better bus for the passenger.

Most of the Badgerline spec Beavers were on 709s and didn't have a particularly long rear overhang. They were decent enough.

Aside from the Dodges, I found the early Varios particularly nasty in terms of ride quality.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I bet there are few good routes around rural areas: Higland, bluebird, Cumbria, Northamptonshire, Somerset, Norfolk which could benefit from theses

Not on the current network. Stagecoach Somerset is really only a couple of routes and the main one is operated by Versas.

I'd agree with Northamptonshire with County Connect services being suitable but they're in the hands on newly bought Solo SR slimlines

It'll be interesting to see where they do end up

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most of the Badgerline spec Beavers were on 709s and didn't have a particularly long rear overhang. They were decent enough.

Ah, the MK Metro ones were the longest variant possible (sorry, don't know the model number) which meant back-seat passengers were literally catapulted in the air (I'm 18-odd stone and it was enough to lift me off the seat) at every speed bump. Awful things which were directly responsible for me buying a car and switching to car commuting before my back gave out.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Ah, the MK Metro ones were the longest variant possible (sorry, don't know the model number) which meant back-seat passengers were literally catapulted in the air (I'm 18-odd stone and it was enough to lift me off the seat) at every speed bump. Awful things which were directly responsible for me buying a car and switching to car commuting before my back gave out.

Think you may have been referring to the early Varios (Merc 0814) - sort of R reg era? As I said, they were pretty awful

 

[Bletchleyite]

Think you may have been referring to the early Varios (Merc 0814) - sort of R reg era? As I said, they were pretty awful

Yep exactly those, having done a bit of Googling.

http://www.showbus.com/gallery/anglia/mk2.htm

 

[Mikey C]

OK, going to try and clear up a few points at once here.

The E200MMC at 11.9m has the same size wheels as the E300 it replaces - smaller wheels (same as the old E200) are available on shorter lengths. Obviously the E300 always was a lightweight single deck, but I wouldn't say that the long E200MMCs are just oversized MDs. There's a big difference between bolting another 20cm onto a standard Dart to make an SPD, and having a range that goes all the way up to 12m.
E200MMC at 11.9m and the Streetlite MAX only share a platform with their shorter siblings.

480 units is about the right number, for comparison:
2009 - 434
2010 - 340
2011 - 580 (but includes a major investment of 163 units in the re-aquired London ops)
2012 -390
2013 - 430
2014 - 570 (a record £100m investment, presumably mostly due to the Astromegas for Oxford Tube)
2015 - 470

So as can be seen, this year's initial order is fairly typical, but unlike other years I would suggest there is limited scope for a further "extension" order in summer.

Further, based on the numbers I've seen, potention regulation in Manchester is not being seen as a hindrance to investment - at least not this year...

Gillmoss are due two batches of E400MMCs. In fact, the only depot not getting anything new in MY&SL will be Preston.

To be consistent I guess you'd need to exclude the London orders, as these are driven by tendering results and requirements, and impacted by routes being converted to the Borismaster, as these are owned by TfL, but effectively then release standard DDs for use elsewhere, thus reducing the need for new buses.

 

[mbonwick]

Really I should have excluded London - but after the initial investment, they've been pretty consistent around 70 vehicles per year. 2014 saw about 100 units, which goes part way to explaining the large number.

The Borismasters don't have an impact on order numbers - you could argue that without them, London would have to have new vehicles ordered by Stagecoach I suppose. If you accept NB4Ls as a necessary fact of life however, they can just be excluded from any totals as the vast majority of vehicles they have replaced have been returned to the finance company. (Mostly Lombard Leasing/HSBC).

 

[Busaholic]

Really I should have excluded London - but after the initial investment, they've been pretty consistent around 70 vehicles per year. 2014 saw about 100 units, which goes part way to explaining the large number.

The Borismasters don't have an impact on order numbers - you could argue that without them, London would have to have new vehicles ordered by Stagecoach I suppose. If you accept NB4Ls as a necessary fact of life however, they can just be excluded from any totals as the vast majority of vehicles they have replaced have been returned to the finance company. (Mostly Lombard Leasing/HSBC).

It could well be that large numbers of NB4Ls will flood the market within two to three years following next month's mayoral elections, especially if, as generally expected, Sadiq Khan wins. I am sure he will not be as punitive as Boris was with the bendybuses, because new contracts will have to be struck with the operators who will once again have to provide the requisite buses themselves. I cannot imagine any of the big companies wanting secondhand NB4Ls at any price: that second staircase is a huge millstone, even if you ditched the rear (and possibly middle) door. Malta and Sri Lanka will also say thanks, but no thanks. The wily Chinese might just ship them to Hong Kong, though, if they were being virtually given away, which I'm sure will be the case.

 

[mbonwick]

The soonest a new mayor could ditch NB4Ls onto the open market without having to buy out the route contracts (and mitigating against a huge political backlash) will be 5-7 years.

Regardless of what candidates are campaigning on, the Boris Buses are here to stay for the forseeable...

 

[Busaholic]

The soonest a new mayor could ditch NB4Ls onto the open market without having to buy out the route contracts (and mitigating against a huge political backlash) will be 5-7 years.

Regardless of what candidates are campaigning on, the Boris Buses are here to stay for the forseeable...

Many of the (real) Routemaster contracts were terminated early when Livingstone did his volte-face on conductor operation and the same with the bendys when Johnson took over. In fact, it'll be far easier to ditch the NB4Ls as the companies haven't had to fork out for those wretched buses, so won't be making the huge losses that Arriva and Go Ahead in particular did when they were forced to withdraw the artics. No London bus company would be so foolish as to make a big issue of it, unless they were planning a strategic withdrawal like First. Anyway, if even some of the rumours are true, TfL could seek substantial damages from Wrightbus for underperformance if they so chose.

 

[Mikey C]

There's NO reason for the Borismasters to leave service before their "normal" life. None of the candidates are campaigning to remove them, why should they? Once they've got a couple of opening windows they'll give London good service for the next few years, even if no more are purchased.

My previous comment about NB4L contracts affecting Stagecoach purchases, was simply that if a route was converted to 30 NB4Ls, then that's 30 new buses that Stagecoach (or whichever operator) wouldn't be buying if the route needed new buses, as TfL buy the buses and lease them to the operator.

 

[Robertj21a]

The soonest a new mayor could ditch NB4Ls onto the open market without having to buy out the route contracts (and mitigating against a huge political backlash) will be 5-7 years.

Regardless of what candidates are campaigning on, the Boris Buses are here to stay for the forseeable...

I think most people are, rightly, assuming that the Borismasters will have to spend their entire working lives in London. There is no obvious requirement from any other part of the UK (or indeed the world) for such one-off buses.

 

[Mikey C]

I think most people are, rightly, assuming that the Borismasters will have to spend their entire working lives in London. There is no obvious requirement from any other part of the UK (or indeed the world) for such one-off buses.

More to the point, the Borismasters were designed to spend their lives in London.

While Boris may have come up with the initial idea, the finished product is very much a product of TfL.

 

[johnw]

Scania are not flavour of the year - they refuse to fit electric cooling fans (instead insisting on belt driven ones) and were making noises about the modification program last year invalidating warranties. Plus Stagecoach were unwilling to keep paying for an external contractor to modify them.

Goes without saying that a demand-responsive fan leads to a noiceable fuel saving over one that's always on.

Thanks for a detailed informed reply

I bought a new Audi A3 a couple of years ago and similar car forums suggested that the warranty would be voided with mods - not that I indented to do so.

But it's interesting that Stagecoach bought Scania / E400 over the ADL complete 400s for inter urban work, as complete E400s are not up to the job?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Looking at what a Mercedes Benz Sprinter City looks like on Google I'd probably give it 5 years absolute max before they're completely knackered