Crossrail GEML Section

[AlanFry1]

Hi - I'm not sure if this is something I'm wondering and alone in with opinion, but has the Crossrail on the slow rather than fast GEML services been a big mistake?

I was just wondering whether crossrail trains could have gone to Clacton/southend/Ipswich/Harwich etc leaving only the Norwich and WAML services and the shenfield metro services into the shed - that would have freed capacity more so at liv st, on the GEML, WAML and further across the field?

Didn't crossrail think of this before only operating on a bottleneck on the shenfield line? :-?

 

[eddp]

There was a proposal called Superlink (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superlink_(railway_network)) to make Crossrail a regional rather than a suburban network, but from memory it was discarded, among other reasons, due to issues with services throughout the network being delayed by delays well outside London, which the chosen option, being pretty self-contained, won't have to the same extent. Thameslink on the other hand probably will suffer from these issues (the frequency of trains through the core means that the trains have to arrive at the core at the right time, and if a train coming from say Horsham is delayed en-route that could have a knock-on effect right back to Brighton and Eastbourne, and as far up as Bedford and Cambridge).

I remember once also reading a report that basically concluded that people travelling into an urban area from outside prefer/expect to travel to a terminus and then make onward travel from there, whereas from inside the urban area people don't have the same expectation and instead prefer to have a choice of locations to travel to. Up to a point it's the same argument as why Intercity trains don't stop much inside urban areas - it slows down the overall journey time and you can't please all of the people all of the time. Crossrail is basically an S-Bahn/RER style service.

 

[Bald Rick]

The GEML isn't just full at Liverpool St, it's also full all the way to Shenfield on the main lines. It's not so full on the electric lines. The WAML is full at Liverpool St, and in the approaches from Bethnal Green, and again from Hackney Downs to Broxbourne via Tottenham Hale.

Putting the GEML 'Outers' down the hole would only free up space at Liverpool St. It would do nothing to provide more capacity from the portal to Shenfield on the main lines. Arguably, as Crossrail is a 200m long train railway, and most GEML peak trains are 240m, it would actually reduce capacity.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There was a proposal called Superlink (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superlink_(railway_network)) to make Crossrail a regional rather than a suburban network, but from memory it was discarded, among other reasons, due to issues with services throughout the network being delayed by delays well outside London, which the chosen option, being pretty self-contained, won't have to the same extent. Thameslink on the other hand probably will suffer from these issues (the frequency of trains through the core means that the trains have to arrive at the core at the right time, and if a train coming from say Horsham is delayed en-route that could have a knock-on effect right back to Brighton and Eastbourne, and as far up as Bedford and Cambridge).

I remember once also reading a report that basically concluded that people travelling into an urban area from outside prefer/expect to travel to a terminus and then make onward travel from there, whereas from inside the urban area people don't have the same expectation and instead prefer to have a choice of locations to travel to. Up to a point it's the same argument as why Intercity trains don't stop much inside urban areas - it slows down the overall journey time and you can't please all of the people all of the time. Crossrail is basically an S-Bahn/RER style service.

In a futile attempt to save the first Crossrail Bill (1994) - an effort was made to add Shenfield - Southend and even a connection to the LT+S via grade seperation at Forest Gate Junction. (and - abandoning the Metropolitan ?Chiltern section and addingMilton Keynes / Tring into the equation. More value etc. Course these ides failed due to (a) Railtrack (b) Upsetting the privatisation concepts of early franchises - funny how the Tring concept may yet have it's day.

 

[GB]

The GEML isn't just full at Liverpool St, it's also full all the way to Shenfield on the main lines. It's not so full on the electric lines. The WAML is full at Liverpool St, and in the approaches from Bethnal Green, and again from Hackney Downs to Broxbourne via Tottenham Hale.

Putting the GEML 'Outers' down the hole would only free up space at Liverpool St. It would do nothing to provide more capacity from the portal to Shenfield on the main lines. Arguably, as Crossrail is a 200m long train railway, and most GEML peak trains are 240m, it would actually reduce capacity.

Out of interest, where is "the hole" going to be located? I know its the stratford area but how will it fit in with existing infrastructure?

Caveat: I know nothing at all about crossrail.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Out of interest, where is "the hole" going to be located? I know its the stratford area but how will it fit in with existing infrastructure?

Caveat: I know nothing at all about crossrail.

At the original site of Pudding Mill Line DLR station. Crossrail moved the DLR station south east by far enough that the tunnels will surface between the running lines to Liverpool Street. You can see it on Google Maps.

 

[Dave1987]

When you look at where the tunnel mouth is and how close the ring road at Bow is the gradient down must be pretty steep to get under the road.

 

[GB]

At the original site of Pudding Mill Line DLR station. Crossrail moved the DLR station south east by far enough that the tunnels will surface between the running lines to Liverpool Street. You can see it on Google Maps.

Ah, thank you.

 

[swt_passenger]

When you look at where the tunnel mouth is and how close the ring road at Bow is the gradient down must be pretty steep to get under the road.

There's also the Lee (Lea?) Navigation that comes first, in terms of obstructions to dive under...

 

[AndyNLondon]

Here's a diagram illustrating Pudding Mill Lane DLR's old & new locations, and how the Crossrail portal fits into the space created:

(from Crossrail press release about the new DLR station)

 

[Alfie1014]

In a futile attempt to save the first Crossrail Bill (1994) - an effort was made to add Shenfield - Southend and even a connection to the LT+S via grade seperation at Forest Gate Junction. (and - abandoning the Metropolitan ?Chiltern section and addingMilton Keynes / Tring into the equation. More value etc. Course these ides failed due to (a) Railtrack (b) Upsetting the privatisation concepts of early franchises - funny how the Tring concept may yet have it's day.

I remember working with ChiefPlanner on the LTS (off peak) option in the 1990s it was a pretty limited offer and would have probably only triggered demands for a better all day service off of the route. Somewhere I've still got the original draft timetables.

Interestingly there are current campaigns to extend the eastern side of Crossrail 2 down to the LTS (all day), it's surprising what goes around come around!

 

[Bald Rick]

Interestingly there are current campaigns to extend the eastern side of Crossrail 2 down to the LTS (all day), it's surprising what goes around come around!

Not going to happen
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

When you look at where the tunnel mouth is and how close the ring road at Bow is the gradient down must be pretty steep to get under the road.

About 1:30 IIRC

 

[AM9]

About 1:30 IIRC

Considering 25+ year-old 319s with 25% axles driven manage the 1:29 between City Thameslink from a standing start, the 345s should eat the climb to the surface at Bow.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Considering 25+ year-old 319s with 25% axles driven manage the 1:29 between City Thameslink from a standing start, the 345s should eat the climb to the surface at Bow.

There's a 1-in-32 descent east of Paddington too.

 

[Dave1987]

I'm sure I read somewhere that its one of the steepest gradients in the country. And that they can only get away with it because it's covered and so not affected by low adhesion factors.

 

[AM9]

There's a 1-in-32 descent east of Paddington too.

All easy for EMUs. Most of the ramps in UK urban areas were built with the maximum gradients that victorian steam hauled trains could reliably (or not sometimes) climb.

 

[Starmill]

I have this recollection that Ken Livingstone chose the Metro option rather than the Express option because although the latter had a slightly better BCR, it wouldn't achieve his aim of regenerating the inner-suburbs if it didn't stop there.

 

[Wolfie]

I have this recollection that Ken Livingstone chose the Metro option rather than the Express option because although the latter had a slightly better BCR, it wouldn't achieve his aim of regenerating the inner-suburbs if it didn't stop there.

Yup and he who pays the piper picks the tune! Given the amount of Croassrail funding that came from London it is unsurprising that London's priorities dominated...

 

[Class 170101]

Interestingly there are current campaigns to extend the eastern side of Crossrail 2 down to the LTS (all day), it's surprising what goes around come around!

Not going to happen

Have to agree with this and add that I cannot see any value because it would be a very indirect route for LTS passengers to reach London.

 

[Chris125]

Not going to happen

IIRC it was revealed somewhere that sending this Eastern branch via Barking is the current thinking at TfL, so it's not entirely out of the question.

 

[ComUtoR]

Considering 25+ year-old 319s with 25% axles driven manage the 1:29 between City Thameslink from a standing start

They struggle and there are specific instructions for making it up there too. About a week ago I almost didn't make it up and came to a grinding halt just after the signal.

Heading down from City Thameslink is probably the worst part of my day. Sitting at City, waiting for the RA, staring at that climb, in a 319... not fun.

The best thing they ever did was increase the linespeed up it.

 

[Bald Rick]

IIRC it was revealed somewhere that sending this Eastern branch via Barking is the current thinking at TfL, so it's not entirely out of the question.

It's in the current thinking of various local authorities, which is a rather different thing. You might notice how no-one has explained how you could get a Crossrail frequency, all stations service on the Thameside line without removing services to Fenchurch street...

 

[rebmcr]

It's in the current thinking of various local authorities, which is a rather different thing. You might notice how no-one has explained how you could get a Crossrail frequency, all stations service on the Thameside line without removing services to Fenchurch street...

Grade separation east of Barking, and entirely replace the Purfleet line services?

 

[Taunton]

All easy for EMUs. Most of the ramps in UK urban areas were built with the maximum gradients that victorian steam hauled trains could reliably (or not sometimes) climb.

I believe the steepest gradient on the passenger network is 1 in 27 on the climb from under the Mersey to Liverpool James Street (1 in 30 up the other side to Birkenhead). This was easily achieved, including restarting from signal stops, by 40-year old EMUs in the late 1970s. It had also been achieved by an intensive steam service prior to electrification, with locos sapped for power by condensing gear.

 

[edwin_m]

Grade separation east of Barking, and entirely replace the Purfleet line services?

Get rid of the District Line?