Stranded At Berney Arms

[cornishjohn]

They went for a short walk in easy country from a railway station with a reasonable expectation that the advertised train would arrive to take them home as I assume it deposited them earlier in the day.

Actually, I would question the "easy" bit. Last time I walked that way it was all pretty marshy.

Regarding the expectation that a train should arrive, we all know that occasionally it may not: bridge strikes, tractors on level crossings, broken rails, fallen trees, on-board fires etc. So it does no harm for a passenger to have a "Plan B" for any trip. Of course, close to civilisation on a more frequent service, that plan-b is less intensive (perhaps just catch a bus instead) than at Berney Arms. When commuting by rail in my last job I experienced a 2 hour delay approximately once per year.

No they doubt prepared accordingly for those circumstances. It shouldn't take a volunteer life boat to provide that service!

The TOC clearly failed to provide the right information, or implement it's own Plan-B in time. With the amount of electronic connectivity available this is quite unforgiveable. Whether the lifeboat was appropriate, if the local police involved perhaps they know the actual answer to the private road access questions?? [Yes, I know the road is there, I walked along it - see above - I mean taxi permission; locked gates and so on] Had the TOC help line explained the correct situation in the first instance, the party could have walked a couple of miles to civilisation nearer than G. Yarmouth well before it got dark, and the TOC could have arranged a taxi to meet them there - the family were after all planning a day "exploring" anyhow.

Having looked at a few realtimetrains reports, it seems more often than not Berney Arms is a "No report". How is it possible to distinguish this from "Did not call".

In the good old days, before mobile phones and electronic help points, what would we have expected such a family to do? (Let's assume it was the pub's day off)

 

[Bletchleyite]

They would have had to walk to the nearest telephone box at best, or all the way to Great Yarmouth at worst, having made their own judgement that it wasn't worth waiting any longer to see if the train would turn up. I reckon I'd call that somewhere around the half hour to an hour late mark, or sooner if we looked to be running short of water etc.

As someone at the very youngest end[1] of "not having grown up with a mobile", having got my first one aged 18 just before there was PAYG (I instead had a "12 months line rental up front" one) that seems obvious to me - but it seems surprising to anyone younger.

[1] Born in 1979 and for various reasons having many friends quite a bit younger than me (late 20s/early 30s) I do seem to be an odd gen-X/Millennial hybrid.

 

[cornishjohn]

Of course the real issue is that the help point went to someone in India rather than someone in Norfolk who might actually know where the hell Berney Arms actually is.

This is a new angle. I thought the issue was the fact the call centre isn't in Great Britain. I hadn't realised the problem was that the call centre isn't in Norfolk.

This is not a facetious point. Do we truly expect a call centre in each county? Would a call centre in (say) Durham realise Berney Arms is a little isolated? The real issue is the lack of sensible information available. The help point operative should have a page of information come up on their screen when a call comes through - in this instance saying, amongst other things, that alternative help is difficult to arrange, it is two miles to the nearest road access, a situation should be treated as "severe" and so on.

Perhaps off on a tangent, perhaps not: I don't have a mobile; If I am waiting at a station such as Berney Arms, the train appears, derails 200 yards from the station and catches fire(!), is the Help Point (or should it be) a sensible way for me to make the emergency call?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Help points tend to have two buttons, the Emergency one connects you to 999 I think. That may well be how they called the Police.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

If they were even remotely competent they'd be aware of a *potential* problem as soon as the trains were diverted away. They would have made sure *their* helpline was aware (the fact that it's outsourced is irrelevant) and would have had a contingency plan to deal with anyone waiting at the station.

I agree, but with a rider that 'the industry' cannot, at the point of disruption, realistically consider every potential passenger journey option and put measures in place. That is why an effective help point / contact centre response is critical.

I would have thought that Abellio (and any other operator, anywhere in the UK) would already have in place a procedure to deal with passengers stranded at each and every one of their stations, including associated data such as nearest public road, shops / pubs for refreshments and details of the relevant contacts for emergency services. In the special case of Berney Arms that might also include the names and telephone numbers of the nearby farms, the controllers of access to the private road and local boat hire companies.

Responding pro-actively to an incident, or to a member of the public requesting help by phone / help point, you pull the folder of the shelf and follow the procedure. No need to check first with the boss whether the cost of boat hire (or calling RNLI) is acceptable or not!

In a location such as Berney Arms (little used) I wouldn't expect them to send automatically a taxi - on the off-chance that someone happens to be at the station waiting. But, once a stranded passenger has made contact, I would expect them to be 'rescued' by whatever appropriate means.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree fully. Though equally as even the best-laid plans fail sometimes, I would still expect users of such a remote station to be prepared for the eventuality of it failing badly as it did.

It's not dissimilar to the idea that you should be able to leave your house unlocked, but realistically there are thieves.

 

[Greenback]

This is a new angle. I thought the issue was the fact the call centre isn't in Great Britain. I hadn't realised the problem was that the call centre isn't in Norfolk.

The problem is that the Help Point went to NRES, who couldn't be much help in the circumstances. The actual location of the service isn't that relevant, though someone with local knowledge of the area would probably be at an advantage.

This is not a facetious point. Do we truly expect a call centre in each county? Would a call centre in (say) Durham realise Berney Arms is a little isolated? The real issue is the lack of sensible information available. The help point operative should have a page of information come up on their screen when a call comes through - in this instance saying, amongst other things, that alternative help is difficult to arrange, it is two miles to the nearest road access, a situation should be treated as "severe" and so on.

What is relevant is the fact that the Help Point connected to a train enquiries service which apparently does not have access to real time running information, or if it does, they either don't understand what they are seeing or it's not giving useful information.

A Help Point connected to NRES, wherever the call centre is based, may be acceptable in some stations. At Berney Arms, and similar kinds of stations I dare say, I humbly submit that it is not.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The really shoddy bit of this is probably this quote:
“Thirty minutes later we were told the train had already served Berney Arms and was arriving into Norwich which clearly was not the case as we were standing on a single platform.”

Clearly someone had access to the relevant data but didn't/couldn't interpret that there is more than one route it can take

This appears to be the service in question - I wonder if the Reedham entry is an oddity in the system - I don't think it could have gone Reedham to Great Yarmouth in 6 mins generally
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L81416/2016/05/08/advanced

Or departed back to Norwich from Great Yarmouth 13 minutes before it arrived in platform 3! Abellio Great Anglia in association with H.G. Wells (who wrote The Time Machine for the uninitiated).

 

[duncanp]

I saw an episode of "Secret Stations" with Paul Merton last night.

In it, he arrived at Beasdale Station (between Fort William and Mallaig) and wanted directions to Arisaig House.

He pressed the button on the Help Point and asked for directions. The helpful person at Scotrail was able to Google "Arisaig House" and relay the directions back.

So Help Points can be useful, but as has been said earlier, they have to be connected to someone who knows what they are doing, and can take appropriate action.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

NRES should not be closed, it should just be run properly.

Agreed.

As with so many facets of modern life, it is all to do with costs and little to do with quality of service. If you outsource on the basis of cost, you get what you pay for (probably a little less depending upon your negotiation skills / contract writing skills).

If a call centre is paid £x per call handled it will want to handle as many calls as possible in as short a time as possible. That means one thing. Get the caller off the line as quickly as possible. No follow ups. No messy repeat interactions which do not earn the call centre provider further money.

You can get just as poor a service handling things internally. Equally you can get a world class service through out-sourcing, but it has to be in the contract and you need to select your out-sourced partner on the basis that they can deliver what you specify.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I saw an episode of "Secret Stations" with Paul Merton last night.

In it, he arrived at Beasdale Station (between Fort William and Mallaig) and wanted directions to Arisaig House.

He pressed the button on the Help Point and asked for directions. The helpful person at Scotrail was able to Google "Arisaig House" and relay the directions back.

So Help Points can be useful, but as has been said earlier, they have to be connected to someone who knows what they are doing, and can take appropriate action.

Do ScotRail get *anything* wrong?

I did think of this thread when I watched it.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

What do you expect, a rail replacement helicopter service?

Why not?

We all pay for a 24/7/365 helicopter search and rescue service (recently privatised / outsourced). Might as well get our money's worth, good training for the new crews and the kids get the excitement of a helicopter ride to make for their otherwise spoiled day.

 

[Deepgreen]

Do ScotRail get *anything* wrong?

I did think of this thread when I watched it.

The several times I have tried to use the help point at my local station (Betchworth), when the train indicator has been broken, I have received messages to the effect that "we cannot connect you at this time"! "Help" being re-defined.

 

[Crossover]

I saw an episode of "Secret Stations" with Paul Merton last night.

In it, he arrived at Beasdale Station (between Fort William and Mallaig) and wanted directions to Arisaig House.

He pressed the button on the Help Point and asked for directions. The helpful person at Scotrail was able to Google "Arisaig House" and relay the directions back.

So Help Points can be useful, but as has been said earlier, they have to be connected to someone who knows what they are doing, and can take appropriate action.

I used the one at Greenfaulds a few months ago to check the running of a train as there is no PIS at the station - was surprised when I got someone who sounded local!

 

[hounddog]

I saw an episode of "Secret Stations" with Paul Merton last night.

In it, he arrived at Beasdale Station (between Fort William and Mallaig) and wanted directions to Arisaig House.

He pressed the button on the Help Point and asked for directions. The helpful person at Scotrail was able to Google "Arisaig House" and relay the directions back.

So Help Points can be useful, but as has been said earlier, they have to be connected to someone who knows what they are doing, and can take appropriate action.

Of course they can be useful when they've been briefed in advance by the production company that the question is going to be asked.

 

[Llanigraham]

Could Abellio Greater Anglia make a donation to the RNLI? Is that permissible?

As was pointed out earlier the boat that "rescued" them was not from the RNLI but from another group that covers the Broads.

 

[al78]

Having checked where that station is, it does look awkward to provide assistance if someone gets stuck because of a cancelled train. The nearest village as the crow flies is Belton but there doesn't appear to be crossings over two rivers. The only options I can see for getting a taxi are to walk to Halvergate or walk along Breydon water to the A47 and Great Yarmouth. The latter is a longer route but does look to involve walking on a good surface, the former looks to be across fields so could be unpleasant underfoot. That must be one of the least accessible stations outside Scotland, does it exist purely for walkers to access the broads?

 

[Llanigraham]

In the good old days, before mobile phones and electronic help points, what would we have expected such a family to do? (Let's assume it was the pub's day off)

They would have walked to the (then) open pub and called a taxi (pubs don't very often have a day off)

 

[CharlieSpotted]

Of course they can be useful when they've been briefed in advance by the production company that the question is going to be asked.

Oh, to be young and cynical

On the discussion around help points, I remember trying to use one at Lichfield Trent Valley before they had better facilities installed. At that time I was used to pressing the information button which would read out the details of the next couple of trains - I think the information came from that "TrainTracker" service of yore. I pressed the information button and was greeted with "What is the nature of your emergency?". It turned out that, during a bodged repair, the two buttons had been wired up in reverse.

 

[Tio Terry]

When I first joined BR in July 1964 I spent around 6 months with the Telegraph Gang renewing telegraph poles and providing another pair of wires between Reedham and Breydon Junction so I got to know the area quite well. Of course, that's a long time ago now and I have to be honest and say I've not been back there for around 10 years so things may have changed since then.

The station is provided by Act Of Parliament. Lord Berney, who owned the land, insisted on it in return for allowing the railway company to construct the line. It saved his Lordship having to travel by boat to his Mill by the river. In 1964 there was just one telephone in the area, in a Post Office red box by the station, the wires for it were carried on the BR pole route as there was no other way to get a service there.

The "Private Road" was nothing more than a farm track, usable by tractors and Landrovers but, if there was a bit or rain, unpassable by ordinary road vehicle. Our Supervisor attempted to get to Berney Arms in a Bedford Dormobile to visit us on site and ended up having to be rescued by the farmer's tractor. In the winter, when the mist falls, it's quite possible to get totally disorientated and lost on the marshes, it's so flat and all the ditches and gates look the same when you can only see 20 yards or so. It's similar at night but you can see and hear the traffic on the A47.

During the winter, cattle would be trained down from Scotland and let out on the marshes to feed from the grass over winter. I've helped drive them from the cattle pens at Reedham and Acle out on to the marsh and back in early spring. They were another reason why people didn't try to get to the pub by the Farm Track! Most of what the pub sold arrived by river.

As I said, I was back there about 10 years ago, the pole route had gone as had the Telephone Box but then I guess everybody used mobile phones by then - and I guess any help point also uses GSM. The Farm Track still looked very much like the old farm track although I only walked to the river and back so not sure about the rest of it. It wouldn't be easy for an ordinary car anyway.

I'm sure there is somebody who has more recent experience of trying to get there by the Farm Track, has it been improved recently?

 

[D1009]

I saw an episode of "Secret Stations" with Paul Merton last night.

In it, he arrived at Beasdale Station (between Fort William and Mallaig) and wanted directions to Arisaig House.

He pressed the button on the Help Point and asked for directions. The helpful person at Scotrail was able to Google "Arisaig House" and relay the directions back.

So Help Points can be useful, but as has been said earlier, they have to be connected to someone who knows what they are doing, and can take appropriate action.

Do you think Scotrail were totally unaware of the filming when he made the call?

 

[lejog]

As I said, I was back there about 10 years ago, the pole route had gone as had the Telephone Box but then I guess everybody used mobile phones by then - and I guess any help point also uses GSM. The Farm Track still looked very much like the old farm track although I only walked to the river and back so not sure about the rest of it. It wouldn't be easy for an ordinary car anyway.

I'm sure there is somebody who has more recent experience of trying to get there by the Farm Track, has it been improved recently?

You only walked from the station to the river and back, isn't that just a path across a marshy field, rather than the track from the A47 to the settlement?

Here is a photo of the track halfway to the A47, north of the level crossing taken in 2008 (courtesy of Julie Williams@Geograph). When I last visited the pub 15 years ago, there was a brewer's van delivering beer. If you watch the video posted earlier you will see a full size caravan parked behind the pub, it could have arrived by boat, but I bet it didn't.

 

[Tio Terry]

You only walked from the station to the river and back, isn't that just a path across a marshy field, rather than the track from the A47 to the settlement?

Here is a photo of the track halfway to the A47, north of the level crossing taken in 2008 (courtesy of Geograph). When I last visited the pub 15 years ago, there was a brewer's van delivering beer.

That's very, very different to what I remember, it was never a metalled road, best bit was spent ballast!

 

[urbophile]

If the pub is only accessible across the fields or by train, where did its customers come from? No wonder its future is in doubt: how did it survive so long? And is there still a Lord Berney?

It's almost worth keeping the pub and station going as a museum to English eccentricity. I'm surprised John Betjeman didn't write about it (or perhaps he did).

 

[LAX54]

Most trade comes from river traffic during the holiday season, and then secondry those that come by train or walk.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the pub is only accessible across the fields or by train, where did its customers come from? No wonder its future is in doubt: how did it survive so long? And is there still a Lord Berney?



It's almost worth keeping the pub and station going as a museum to English eccentricity. I'm surprised John Betjeman didn't write about it (or perhaps he did).

There are a few videos about of the pub, and it doesn't look the nicest in the world, bit like a fairly scummy estate pub.

 

[pitdiver]

There are a few videos about of the pub, and it doesn't look the nicest in the world, bit like a fairly scummy estate pub.

Not quite a pub from a scummy estate but more like a typical seaside pub at a second rate seaside town. There were a couple of pubs similar to this on the Broads one that comes to mind is or was the Broadshaven at Potter Heigham.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having looked at a map, it appears to be on a line all of its own - so closure potentially would give significant savings. Does freight use it or just this service? Or is maintenance so cheap of such an infrequently-served single line with tourist interest that it actually makes a profit?

 

[306024]

Closure? Wash your mouth out

The alternative route to Yarmouth is single track from Brundall with a loop at Acle. Pathing everything that way on a Summer Saturday would be a challenge. Norwich to Yarmouth is effectively double track, just that one of the tracks happens to go via Berney Arms.

Freight? Wonder when the last freight that run that way was. Any guesses?

 

[Greenback]

Looking at a map one might conclude that closing the line between Reedham and Great Yarmouth makes sense, but the line does serve a useful purpose, both for adding additional capacity, as a diversionary route, and making journeys into GY possible from Reedham and other stations on the line.