Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[HLE]

I believe that SWT is the only TOC that has a guard on every train. The ex-Thames Trains bit of GWR is largely DOO. I also know the stations better than I do GWR, so I can speak authoritatively about what happens there.

TBH from what I do know of GWR, I would have thought that most non-DOO routes would need to retain a second member of staff on board.

London Midland, Virgin, Crosscountry, EMT (i think?), VTEC, don't have any DOO as far as I am aware (barring ECS moves)

 

[Monty]

I believe that SWT is the only TOC that has a guard on every train.

Afaik the following TOCs have Guards/Conductors/Train Managers on all of their passenger services:

South West Trains
East Midlands Trains
London Midland
Arriva Trains Wales
Mersey Rail
Virgin West Coast
Virgin East Coast
Grand Central
Arriva Cross Country

So as you can see still quite a few.

 

[PHILIPE]

Afaik the following TOCs have Guards/Conductors/Train Managers on all of their passenger services:

South West Trains
East Midlands Trains
London Midland
Arriva Trains Wales
Mersey Rail
Virgin West Coast
Virgin East Coast
Grand Central
Arriva Cross Country

So as you can see still quite a few.

What about Arriva Northern and Trans Pennine

 

[HH]

Afaik the following TOCs have Guards/Conductors/Train Managers on all of their passenger services:

South West Trains
East Midlands Trains
London Midland
Arriva Trains Wales
Mersey Rail
Virgin West Coast
Virgin East Coast
Grand Central
Arriva Cross Country

So as you can see still quite a few.

Sorry, I had meant non-InterCity TOC.

Merseyrail and Grand Central are not TOCs. I wasn't aware that ATW and LM had a guard on every train (I use Guard to mean a person in charge of dispatch).

 

[74A]

Like the first injunction, it will be clutching at straws and open to interpretation but down to who's legal team give the best argument in court. It's just their dirty,bullying tactics to deal with this. Why engage with your staff or try to reach an amicable resolution to a dispute you created when you can just air your dirty laundry in public and fight your own workforce in the courts!

The problem is there can be no amicable solution to this dispute. The company want to extend DOO and ASLEF/RMT don't. Someone will win and someone lose.

 

[HLE]

Sorry, I had meant non-InterCity TOC.

Merseyrail and Grand Central are not TOCs. I wasn't aware that ATW and LM had a guard on every train (I use Guard to mean a person in charge of dispatch).

No driver on LM dispatches a train, this is the guards job alone.

 

[BestWestern]

No driver on LM dispatches a train, this is the guards job alone.

Same with ATW, so far as I'm aware.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree. Or better still a guard hanging out of a drop light with his finger on the stop bell!

Indeed, though remember, and I think this needs solving, that a lot of modern stock does not have such a drop light and so the guard will see just as little as the driver once the RA has been given.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What about Arriva Northern and Trans Pennine

TPE correct. Doesn't Northern have a small island of DOO EMUs in Yorkshire, or are they guarded?

 

[A-driver]

The problem is there can be no amicable solution to this dispute. The company want to extend DOO and ASLEF/RMT don't. Someone will win and someone lose.

Agreed. Although the bullying and disgraceful letters from the company to staff taking legal strike action shows the companies approach to all industrial relations really.

 

[Domh245]

TPE correct. Doesn't Northern have a small island of DOO EMUs in Yorkshire, or are they guarded?

Guarded IIRC. Wasn't DOO an option in the franchise agreement, or did it get written off in the end?

 

[ainsworth74]

Guarded IIRC. Wasn't DOO an option in the franchise agreement, or did it get written off in the end?

DCO/DOO is on the cards for at least some of Northern (I have the figure of 50% of trains in my head?).

And yes the Yorkshire Triangle EMUs all have guards. Currently Northern has no implementation of DOO anywhere in its operation.

 

[craigybagel]

DOO:
Southeastern: Most metro services. HS must carry a second member of staff but is DOO for dispatch purposes. Mainline is driver dispatch close to London but carries a guard. DGO away from London.
GTR: Most former Southern metro services, plus London-Brighton. All former FCC services. All former GX services.
FGW: Banbury-paddington, Reading-bedwyn, Henley branch, Bourne End-Maidenhead (not Marlow), Windsor branch, Greenford Branch. No HSTs (obviously!).
Heathrow Express/Connect: All services
Chiltern: All services except north of Banbury and Ruislip-paddington. Not on 68 + DVT or 121.
London overground: All services
Greater Anglia: All West Anglia services. All 321/360 operated services except Southminster and Braintree branches (only certain longer services carry guards), Colchester Town-Clacton/Walton, Manningtree-Harwich, North of Ipswich.
Crossrail: All services
C2c: All services except 12 cars, with those due to go DOO shortly if not already.
Scotrail: All EMU operated services, except Glasgow-edinburgh via Carstairs, Edinburgh - North Berwick/Dunbar.

 

[BestWestern]

DCO/DOO is on the cards for at least some of Northern (I have the figure of 50% of trains in my head?).

And yes the Yorkshire Triangle EMUs all have guards. Currently Northern has no implementation of DOO anywhere in its operation.

Requirement for '50% of passenger mileage to be DOO' was written into the current new Northern franchise. This, I suspect, is the future.

 

[JamesTT]

As a side issue has any Guard worked out how many tickets they would need to sell to get the same commission they get now on the £5 for 10 ticket structure

 

[HH]

Requirement for '50% of passenger mileage to be DOO' was written into the current new Northern franchise. This, I suspect, is the future.

Well, it's the DfT vision of the future, for certain.

 

[A-driver]

Well, it's the DfT vision of the future, for certain.

The dft have to find a way of showing that the mcnulty report was worth more than the paper it's printed on. DOO is an easy way of doing this. And the argument "we already do it so it must be safe" is the easy argument which most from outside the industry will buy.

 

[sarahj]

I posted this on another thread, but thought I'd post here as well. Good for a laugh.

 

[A-driver]

I posted this on another thread, but thought I'd post here as well. Good for a laugh.

Sums it up nicely. Twitter have clearly been told to place as much blame for things on conductors as they can. Tweeting cancelations because of 'high conductor sickness levels' is disgraceful. 'Unavailable train crew' is all that is needed.

 

[Dave1987]

I posted this on another thread, but thought I'd post here as well. Good for a laugh.

Quite clearly making it up as they go along.

 

[BestWestern]

I think the smear campaign has reached and passed terminal velocity; the public aren't buying it and GTR are starting to look silly, as well as like a bunch of rather unpleasant bullies.

 

[HH]

That might simply be a cock-up. They happen quite a lot and probably more on GTR than most.

Nevertheless, there is clearly a concerted attempt to lay the blame for this dispute at staff's door, when the opposite is true. And OFC this is why many think that RMT aren't doing a very good job. The alternative view is that they have simply been out-manoeuvred by the DfT.

 

[BestWestern]

That might simply be a cock-up. They happen quite a lot and probably more on GTR than most.

Nevertheless, there is clearly a concerted attempt to lay the blame for this dispute at staff's door, when the opposite is true. And OFC this is why many think that RMT aren't doing a very good job. The alternative view is that they have simply been out-manoeuvred by the DfT.

I don't think it's so much a case of DfT pulling 'manoeuvres', rather breaking out their biggest lump hammer and attempting to smash the staff & unions into submission with it.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think the smear campaign has reached and passed terminal velocity; the public aren't buying it and GTR are starting to look silly, as well as like a bunch of rather unpleasant bullies.

I actually think it's one of the more fascinating aspects of this dispute. How many times in the past have we seen the public and media solidly opposed to the staff who are taking industrial action? Yet this time as far as I can tell they're either indifferent or supportive of the staff (I'm not saying that there aren't any that are opposed to the staff of course). It's interesting to me, particularly in light of the RMTs pathetic attempts at PR, that this is the case in this dispute.

 

[A-driver]

That might simply be a cock-up. They happen quite a lot and probably more on GTR than most.

Nevertheless, there is clearly a concerted attempt to lay the blame for this dispute at staff's door, when the opposite is true. And OFC this is why many think that RMT aren't doing a very good job. The alternative view is that they have simply been out-manoeuvred by the DfT.

It probably is just a mistake but the entire Twitter account is a joke since GTR took over. The twitterers have no idea of the routes they tweet about or services etc. There have been numerous times passengers have been told to speak to the guard on GN services. It's cost cutting again.

 

[BRblue]

It probably is just a mistake but the entire Twitter account is a joke since GTR took over. The twitterers have no idea of the routes they tweet about or services etc. There have been numerous times passengers have been told to speak to the guard on GN services. It's cost cutting again.

No I don't think it is... I have tweeted them a few times now to correct mis-information and have been totally blanked, I also know of a couple of other occasions when staff sickness has been blamed incorrectly.

 

[Sprinter153]

Sums it up nicely. Twitter have clearly been told to place as much blame for things on conductors as they can. Tweeting cancelations because of 'high conductor sickness levels' is disgraceful. 'Unavailable train crew' is all that is needed.

I tweeted in the other day with praise for an excellent guard on a Redhill route service, going by the begrudging response you'd have thought I'd have suggested clubbing baby seals.

 

[infobleep]

That's exactly it. If the company have evidence someone from Aslef, a rep or someone speaking for Aslef have tried to encourage drivers to stop OT there could be a case to answer.

It seems the ORR are also investigating bullying of staff by GTR regarding the letters sent to guards.

It could be that both sides have broken laws or regulations. What happens then?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Skimble19]

I find it interesting that the Twitter team are directly saying it's due to a lack of conductors etc, but when trains are cancelled due to no driver it's normally a "shortage of train crew"..!

 

[JamesTT]

Is the fight really the Tory DFT versus the rail unions who are the only unions really left with any teeth? It seems like the government are desperate to over turn workers rights to disenfranchise the sick and disabled and line the pockets of the rich

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Is the fight really the Tory DFT versus the rail unions who are the only unions really left with any teeth? It seems like the government are desperate to over turn workers rights to disenfranchise the sick and disabled and line the pockets of the rich

That's exactly what was telegraphed by the infamous Croydon speech by Peter Wilkinson! Perhaps we were a little reluctant to accept that the Conservative government was so willing to fight 30 year old IR wars all over again. For what it's worth, based on past experience with DOO introductions, I think the only way for staff to be able to mount any effective resistance is if ASLEF members are willing to "go nuclear" and stage an indefinite strike. With all the financial repercussions that go with it. Remember that the the change in ASLEF policy was in response to its members views. But that is not the same as following through with action. And ASLEF has yet to even complete its ballot, so we are some way from having a clearer idea how this will all turn out.