Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[infobleep]

Most of the public do have little union experience. Their experience will often be what the right wing media tells them which will be the rhetoric of militant loony left unions hold the country back and to ransom, damaging those benevolent capitalist wealth creators

Not all media is right wing. I don't call the Guardian right wing.

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[JamesTT]

But at the same time if you asked people who are in a job on circa £30k in another industry that is rapidly expanding and seeing rapid growth whether they would accept being put on a performance based contract with no overtime do you think they would be rushing to sign? We are not talking about jobs in an industry that is struggling here or a company that needs to ask staff to change to enable the survival of the company.

Very valid points I would say how many people in this day and age look into the company they are going to work for in that much detail. (They should but how many do? How many people say I need a job....Look a job I could do....Wow that is good money.....I could hit those targets its only X a day. It's with the railway so must be secure... It would be a foot in the door..... The world will be my ITSO card

 

[HH]

Make the staff "redundant" but not give them any redundancy money (is this even legal?)

It's not illegal (as against the law), but it is cause for constructive (and therefore unfair) dismissal. But as noted earlier, this is not an avenue that works well for conductors. At the end you don't have a job.

 

[Tetchytyke]

He has asked a legitimate question so why can't we just answer it?

It's fascinating how the goalposts keep moving, isn't it.

"Prove there's more accidents under DOO(P)!"

"Yeah, but, prove DOO(P) actually caused the accidents!"

We're already heading towards the next argument, which is that the number of accidents caused by DOO(P) is insufficient to justify keeping the guards. And, in any case, it's probably the passenger's fault anyway for not getting "mummy" to "hold their hand".

 

[JamesTT]

Not all media is right wing. I don't call the Guardian right wing.

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You are quite right the Guardian does add balance to the force so to speak.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's fascinating how the goalposts keep moving, isn't it.

"Prove there's more accidents under DOO(P)!"

"Yeah, but, prove DOO(P) actually caused the accidents!"

We're already heading towards the next argument, which is that the number of accidents caused by DOO(P) is insufficient to justify keeping the guards. And, in any case, it's probably the passenger's fault anyway for not getting "mummy" to "hold their hand".

I don't recall asking for proof of more accidents under DOO. Sorry just playing DA because if the reports from these incidents show that having a guard would not or would have been unlikely to have changed the outcome. GTR DFT etc would be all over it.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Not all media is right wing. I don't call the Guardian right wing.

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Agreed, and neither is the Daily Mirror. Sadly the Murdoch Rag The Sun has more readers than the two combined*.




* Except in Merseyside

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Agreed, and neither is the Daily Mirror. Sadly the Murdoch Rag The Sun has more readers than the two combined*.

* Except in Merseyside

Circulation-wise, how do the latest daily figures compare between the Daily Mirror and the Daily Mail?

 

[LowLevel]

In the latest newspaper piece from the evil witch at GTR, may her allotment never prosper (I was told my true opinion on her and her ilk was unsuitable for a public forum), it clearly says 'no change to terms and conditions' as well as 'pay'. Could it be established perhaps if these changes do go ahead, and there's changes to things like Sunday working, commission, rest period between turns, PNBs etc as to whether this is a direct statement that could be used against her/her organisation?

 

[43074]

I also think the RMT need to totally rethink how they communicate with the public. Their strategy as far as I can remember has always been one of using scary language and talking about privatisation and profits being shipped abroad, without explaining the actual issues which are causing staff to strike. Whatever your views on foreign ownership of TOCs is, it is not directly relevant to the DOO battle and detracts from the message they should be trying to convey.

To the average member of the public it just appears as if they are loonies who are ranting over nothing because they never put any relevant information in their press releases.

Then again, some of Southern's Press Releases haven't been particularly well thought out either - some of their titles:
''Time for the RMT to get on-board and be part of the modern railway''
''SOUTHERN HITS OUT AT RMT FOR REFUSING TO NEGOTIATE PLANS TO KEEP STAFF ON TRAINS...''
''Conductor availability leads to cancellations between Brighton and Southampton''
etc.

And as for the comments from Dyan Crowther in 'The Times'... :roll:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not all media is right wing. I don't call the Guardian right wing.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

If all the right-wing newspaper group owners saw that backing the current Corbyn-led Labour Party left-wing political views would increase the circulation of their papers, as anyone reading many threads upon this website would assume such views would be the norm amongst the vast majority of the website members, does anyone think that they would shirk such a move?

 

[embers25]

Then again, some of Southern's Press Releases haven't been particularly well thought out either - some of their titles:
''Time for the RMT to get on-board and be part of the modern railway''
''SOUTHERN HITS OUT AT RMT FOR REFUSING TO NEGOTIATE PLANS TO KEEP STAFF ON TRAINS...''
''Conductor availability leads to cancellations between Brighton and Southampton''
etc.

And as for the comments from Dyan Crowther in 'The Times'... :roll:

Whilst I don't agree with them as they hide the real reasons, there is no error in any of those titles.

Forget DOO, as sadly the reality is that driverless and guardless is the future and so the RMT are not getting on-board with the future of a modern railway (obviously they have no incentive too and neither do existing staff but it is a true statement!)

RMT are refusing to negotiate GTR plans and their plans do keep staff on some trains albeit with massive changes to contracts so again a true statement.

Lastly, conductor availability is leading to cancellations from Brighton to Soton although obviously this is caused by the actions of GTR but the statement is 100% correct.

 

[bengley]

Whilst I don't agree with them as they hide the real reasons, there is no error in any of those titles.

Forget DOO, as sadly the reality is that driverless and guardless is the future and so the RMT are not getting on-board with the future of a modern railway (obviously they have no incentive too and neither do existing staff but it is a true statement!)

RMT are refusing to negotiate GTR plans and their plans do keep staff on some trains albeit with massive changes to contracts so again a true statement.

Lastly, conductor availability is leading to cancellations from Brighton to Soton although obviously this is caused by the actions of GTR but the statement is 100% correct.

Driverless and guardless doesn't have to be the future.

Why are we so intent on automating everyone's job in this modern day? It's totally counter productive - we need to be creating more jobs, not getting rid of them

 

[embers25]

Driverless and guardless doesn't have to be the future.

Why are we so intent on automating everyone's job in this modern day? It's totally counter productive - we need to be creating more jobs, not getting rid of them

I totally agree with you but that is the reality and automated metros the world over are proving that drivers aren't always needed. Buses become personal pods etc..sad but true and the fact that train drivers are so highly paid backed by militant unions makes them a much bigger target. Think of the savings to be made.

I don't think this should be the future but it will be.

 

[74A]

What rubbish. The fact that 9 out of the 11 PTI incidents the RSSB investigated were DOO hints that perhaps DOO is less safe.
.

Can someone show me where on the RAIB website these incidents are indicated. I can't seem to find it.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Driverless and guardless doesn't have to be the future.

Why are we so intent on automating everyone's job in this modern day? It's totally counter productive - we need to be creating more jobs, not getting rid of them

Sadly companies want to cut costs and increase profits.

In America, McDonalds are looking to replace human staff with robots who just "do what they're told". They don't argue, fall ill, go on strike etc. And they wouldn't require wages, sick pay, overtime pay etc. Who's to say that in the year 2234, passengers will be travelling on a full-size train set driven automatically or via satellite overseen by a "person/robot" in a control centre somewhere on the planet

 

[Agent_c]

I totally agree with you but that is the reality and automated metros the world over are proving that drivers aren't always needed. Buses become personal pods etc..sad but true and the fact that train drivers are so highly paid backed by militant unions makes them a much bigger target. Think of the savings to be made.

I don't think this should be the future but it will be.

Evidence of the self-destructive market at bay.

Karl Polanyi warned us after WW2 the free market freed of the restraints on it made by society would be utterly self destructive and would collapse on itself.

If everything is automated, who will buy the services when we're all unemployed thanks to the machine? We wont have a wage to be able to afford it.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Circulation-wise, how do the latest daily figures compare between the Daily Mirror and the Daily Mail?

The Daily Wail is only a million behind the Sun. The Mirror is about 3 million behind.

 

[JamesTT]

Can someone show me where on the RAIB website these incidents are indicated. I can't seem to find it.

They are cited as being incidents investigated by the RSSB (sorry if they are the same organisation) What is interesting is inspite of reports such as this the ORR and DFT maintain their stance of DOO is safe and should be extended.

Regarding the individual contracts issue to the lay person this could sound like a postive thing, each worker will have their own contract they will be treated like an individual and also just the fact they are getting a contract could be seen positively as well. (Yes I know they already have contracts) But if you say the old contracts rewarded everyone regardless of the effort they put in, these new ones mean that if Steve, Dave and Jenny put in a greater amount of committment than Mary, Stuart and Mike. The former will find that they are rewarded accordingly. Don't you think it is fair that we reward those that put in the effort. The militant unions want to hamper progress demand above inflation pay rises for everyone regardless of the efforts made by individuals, threatening to hold hard working people to ransom with strikes look at our brave soldiers and the nurses etc etc etc.

Please note this comment was to illustrate how the media dft etc could spin this. At present GTR seems to not have much support in the press but if that changed, given the criticism levelled at union PR machine, if the RMT and ASLEF got into a battle on two fronts with the media and GTR/DFT, I think they would struggle to maintain support

 

[Robertj21a]

Evidence of the self-destructive market at bay.

Karl Polanyi warned us after WW2 the free market freed of the restraints on it made by society would be utterly self destructive and would collapse on itself.

If everything is automated, who will buy the services when we're all unemployed thanks to the machine? We wont have a wage to be able to afford it.

I seem to recall being told much the same thing if computers were ever allowed to take on significant amounts of work previously handled by office clerks......

 

[HowardGWR]

Sadly companies want to cut costs and increase profits.

In America, McDonalds are looking to replace human staff with robots who just "do what they're told". They don't argue, fall ill, go on strike etc. And they wouldn't require wages, sick pay, overtime pay etc. Who's to say that in the year 2234, passengers will be travelling on a full-size train set driven automatically or via satellite overseen by a "person/robot" in a control centre somewhere on the planet

Assuming a typo there. Try 2034 perhaps?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Interesting point in that Transpennine Express have just ordered 5 car loco hauled trains for Liv-NCL work, so conductors wise both them depots are safe along with a chunk of York. Clearly TPE see the value in the guards if the new trains require them, otherwise they would have adopted more units.

Also XC and VWC have both stated that they have no intention of dispensing with their Train Managers, and with SWT "employing legends" think the role is relatively safe on most franchises at this time. So therefore collectively we need to prove our worth and show the hard work and versatility we can and do deliver. There are those who don't pull their weight, every depot has them, it's these people who need to pull their fingers out and help protect their own jobs

 

[ajb690]

Back on topic, I note that Southern have today updated their "disruption" notice; instead of just blaming conductor sickness, it now blames "conductor and driver sickness". I'm sure that this can have nothing to do with the ASLEF ballot result..

http://www.southernrailway.com/mobile/service-update/service-alterations/

Ongoing disruption to Southern services due to conductor and driver sickness

A shortage of train conductors and drivers due to sickness is affecting Southern services. Trains across the whole of the Southern network may be cancelled or amended. Please check your journey before travel.

 

[Dave1987]

Assuming a typo there. Try 2034 perhaps?

Let's not start that whole debate again, it's been done to death!

 

[phoenixcronin]

Back on topic, I note that Southern have today updated their "disruption" notice; instead of just blaming conductor sickness, it now blames "conductor and driver sickness". I'm sure that this can have nothing to do with the ASLEF ballot result..

http://www.southernrailway.com/mobile/service-update/service-alterations/

ahaha this dispute is descending into even more of a farce, now resorting to taking shots at drivers to turn the public against them.

That being said, as stated by others, I don't think the RMT is doing itself any favours with its 1970s press releases, banging on about "France", "penny-pinching" and "profits"

 

[ainsworth74]

Also XC and VWC have both stated that they have no intention of dispensing with their Train Managers, and with SWT "employing legends" think the role is relatively safe on most franchises at this time.

I think it would be wise to wait until the various ITTs are published I think before making statements like that. The current operators may be quite happy with the status quo but if the ITT tells them to implement DOO then I find it highly unlikely that any bidder will put in a non-compliant bid and will therefore introduce DOO as required. I think the SWT ITT which is due any day now could be very instructive in that regard.

I also rather suspect that one of the reasons why TPE haven't been mandated to introduce DOO is that the DfT don't want to pick fights on both main northern franchises at the same time.

 

[ajb690]

ahaha this dispute is descending into even more of a farce, now resorting to taking shots at drivers to turn the public against them.

That being said, as stated by others, I don't think the RMT is doing itself any favours with its 1970s press releases, banging on about "France", "penny-pinching" and "profits"

I have to agree. I feel the RMT have not explained any of the issues (in terms us commuters would understand): if I didn't read these forums I'd struggle to work out why the strike was happening.

I also fear that the strikes to date have not been that effective; from talking to my work colleagues, the impact seems mostly limited to the East & West Coastways and Uckfield-Oxted. That may be a London-centric viewpoint, and I hope it is, but it also means I hope ASLEF succeed in court tomorrow as GTR seems prepared and willing to ride out a prolonged conductor's strike.

 

[HowardGWR]

Let's not start that whole debate again, it's been done to death!

What debate? The poster to whom I replied typed 2234. I think 2034 is nearer to the mark and that is nothing worth debating about. Does anyone here really believe that trains will not be fully automatedly controlled within 100 years? OK, perhaps 30 years hence may be ambitious (?) but as some trains are already so controlled, (all right, just shuttles and the like), surely this sees the writing on the wall?

 

[HLE]

Driverless and guardless doesn't have to be the future.

Why are we so intent on automating everyone's job in this modern day? It's totally counter productive - we need to be creating more jobs, not getting rid of them

I'm genuinely relieved that someone else has posted this.

I'll say it again......why do the Tories bang on about job creation.....then do this through the DFT/GTR

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting point in that Transpennine Express have just ordered 5 car loco hauled trains for Liv-NCL work, so conductors wise both them depots are safe along with a chunk of York. Clearly TPE see the value in the guards if the new trains require them, otherwise they would have adopted more units.

So it would seem. Has there been any word as to whether the MUs will also be guarded? I haven't heard anything to say they won't, but you're inside of course.

Notably the Swiss have DOO on LHCS, as do the Germans, but I really can't see that here - the obvious issue being an inability to access the train from the loco, though that said that's also true of the back 8 in a non-corridor 12-car EMU formation...

 

[A-driver]

I'm genuinely relieved that someone else has posted this.



I'll say it again......why do the Tories bang on about job creation.....then do this through the DFT/GTR

Job creation to the Tories certainly didn't mean give people a 4day week 50k job with good pension, T&Cs and protection from being abused by your employer. Job creation to the Tories means to force people into dead end 0hours contracts with minimum wage, no pension and make them a slave to their employers who will be at work when and where they are told to be, no matter how short notice. After all, why should plebs be allowed a life outside work?