Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Dave1987]

What debate? The poster to whom I replied typed 2234. I think 2034 is nearer to the mark and that is nothing worth debating about. Does anyone here really believe that trains will not be fully automatedly controlled within 100 years? OK, perhaps 30 years hence may be ambitious (?) but as some trains are already so controlled, (all right, just shuttles and the like), surely this sees the writing on the wall?

In 100 yrs time, who knows what will be the case, I almost certainly won't be alive. In my career I will probably see ETCS Level 2 spread across the network and maybe even a bit of Level 3 although I doubt that.

 

[Carlisle]

I'll say it again......why do the Tories bang on about job creation.....then do this through the DFT/GTR

To which their response would be the DFT aren't specifying any staff cuts in these DOO proposals in the various franchise awards

 

[Robertj21a]

Job creation to the Tories certainly didn't mean give people a 4day week 50k job with good pension, T&Cs and protection from being abused by your employer. Job creation to the Tories means to force people into dead end 0hours contracts with minimum wage, no pension and make them a slave to their employers who will be at work when and where they are told to be, no matter how short notice. After all, why should plebs be allowed a life outside work?

I somehow doubt that the many thousands/millions now off the dole queues would necessarily agree with that view.

 

[tony6499]

Job creation to the Tories certainly didn't mean give people a 4day week 50k job with good pension, T&Cs and protection from being abused by your employer. Job creation to the Tories means to force people into dead end 0hours contracts with minimum wage, no pension and make them a slave to their employers who will be at work when and where they are told to be, no matter how short notice. After all, why should plebs be allowed a life outside work?

Which is what Wilkinson said in his speech, how right was he ? Well paid jobs with good pensions are only for MP's

 

[speedy_sticks]

Is there any league table which says which TOC is making money or not oit of their franchise?

Also how subsidised their franchise is in relation to the above?

 

[D1009]

Anyone still believe this OBS role will be around for years to come?

Yes, I think the DfT's current vision for the future is that there should be at least a second staff member on any medium to long distance train under normal circumstances, but they don't see the guard's current role as value for money for the taxpayer.

 

[JamesTT]

Which is what Wilkinson said in his speech, how right was he ? Well paid jobs with good pensions are only for MP's

So we have unions going back to the 1970s Tories back to the 1870s though.
Now where did I put my stove pipe hat

 

[speedy_sticks]

Glad your enjoying your legal high this evening!

I bet anybody here £200 that by 2021 there will be less than 20% of current guard (soon to be OBS) left on the trains of Southern.

Yes, I think the DfT's current vision for the future is that there should be at least a second staff member on any medium to long distance train under normal circumstances, but they don't see the guard's current role as value for money for the taxpayer.

 

[JamesTT]

Yes, I think the DfT's current vision for the future is that there should be at least a second staff member on any medium to long distance train under normal circumstances, but they don't see the guard's current role as value for money for the taxpayer.

Is there anyway the RMT could find out how much revenue the conductor teams take overall and then compare it to the salary bill. It could be a factor which could help sway those of a more commercial view point to side with the Guards. Something along the lines of not only do they provide the safety element but they also took £X in revenue compared to £Y cost in wages.
If they cost more then break it down to cost per passenger journey and put something along the lines of they only cost pence per journey, to provide that extra level of safety and support for our passengers. No mention of greedy capitalist fat cats needed.

 

[Domh245]

Is there any league table which says which TOC is making money or not oit of their franchise?

Also how subsidised their franchise is in relation to the above?

There is such a table, but I can't remember where it is - probably buried somewhere on the DfT website. As for how subsidised it is compared to others, GTR has only been operating for a year and a half, but under a year at Southern (they started late July 2015). The data (probably?) won't be available yet

I bet anybody here £200 that by 2021 there will be less than 20% of current guard (soon to be OBS) left on the trains of Southern.

An optimist I see!

 

[Bookd]

The issue that has never been resolved in terms of automation of jobs is distributing income. In the seventies, when advocating the 'white heat of the technological revolution' Tony Benn forecast that in future the only problem that people would have would be how to fill their leisure time. This was seen as a good thing, but it depended on income being maintained in proportion; in practice those in well paid jobs work harder than ever, whilst income inequality continues to rise.

 

[A-driver]

I somehow doubt that the many thousands/millions now off the dole queues would necessarily agree with that view.

So in other words a race to the bottom? How dare these people have good jobs when I don't have a job at all. I'd do their job for less without any of the perks because it's better than I currently have.

Rather than look at what you could have you should only look at those worse off than you and be greatful you are better off than them. Of course of those at the top and business thought that way we really would be in trouble.

 

[JamesTT]

Glad your enjoying your legal high this evening!

I bet anybody here £200 that by 2021 there will be less than 20% of current guard (soon to be OBS) left on the trains of Southern.

My sources tell me that the target number of OBS is 255 compared to 313 at the outset. So based on 20% of 255 being 51 I will take your bet and if there are less than 51 people left in the OBS or similar role prior to the new franchise holder being announced. I will give £200 to a railway based charity.

 

[phoenixcronin]

So in other words a race to the bottom? How dare these people have good jobs when I don't have a job at all. I'd do their job for less without any of the perks because it's better than I currently have.

Rather than look at what you could have you should only look at those worse off than you and be greatful you are better off than them. Of course of those at the top and business thought that way we really would be in trouble.

How is moving people off the dole a "race to the bottom"? surely the dole is the bottomest of bottoms, so moving off the dole can only be a race towards the top.

 

[A-driver]

How is moving people off the dole a "race to the bottom"? surely the dole is the bottomest of bottoms, so moving off the dole can only be a race towards the top.

My point is that a zero hours minimum wage 'walked all over by your employer with no life out of work' style job may be better than unemployment but it dosnt mean it's justifiable to make it the norm for employment. Tory jobless figures are very misleading as the jobs they are creating force people into a poor quality of life with little future prospects and almost no chance of a mortgage etc. They are not interested in creating well paid jobs with good employment conditions.

 

[JamesTT]

My point is that a zero hours minimum wage 'walked all over by your employer with no life out of work' style job may be better than unemployment but it dosnt mean it's justifiable to make it the norm for employment. Tory jobless figures are very misleading as the jobs they are creating force people into a poor quality of life with little future prospects and almost no chance of a mortgage etc. They are not interested in creating well paid jobs with good employment conditions.

But these jobs apparently reward hard workers working hard for their families. :roll:

 

[D1009]

Glad your enjoying your legal high this evening!

Thank you, I can admit to have consumed a few pints of excellent English real ale this evening, but I remain of that view.

 

[speedy_sticks]

Don't forget that these OBS roles will be dual use, they will be asked/required to work at any train station on the network, so if true, that number will be going down.

My sources tell me that the target number of OBS is 255 compared to 313 at the outset. So based on 20% of 255 being 51 I will take your bet and if there are less than 51 people left in the OBS or similar role prior to the new franchise holder being announced. I will give £200 to a railway based charity.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thank you, I can admit to have consumed a few pints of excellent English real ale this evening, but I remain of that view.

Sorry about the legal rights bit; thought you were talking purely about Southern.

 

[ungreat]

Im a railwayman of nearly 30 years service.Ive seen BR,three men on a train,reduced to two and now one
Ive never seen such staff intimidation as now with GTR are inflicting on their workforce
There are people on this forum who obviously have never had union backing and dont expect anyone else to have either and expect the rail workers to submit to what they have to suffer...sorry,we dont work that way
We have hard fought conditions of service and wish to keep them
The Southern Guards are fighting for their jobs...I support them wholeheartedly
GTR are Connex with a different name...nothing more
A GTR Driver,ready to stand with my Conductor Brothers

 

[Solent&Wessex]

So it would seem. Has there been any word as to whether the MUs will also be guarded? I haven't heard anything to say they won't, but you're inside of course.

Notably the Swiss have DOO on LHCS, as do the Germans, but I really can't see that here - the obvious issue being an inability to access the train from the loco, though that said that's also true of the back 8 in a non-corridor 12-car EMU formation...

TPE have said internally that all TPE services are guaranteed to have a safety critical conductor on board for the life of the franchise.

Although that doesn't state exactly what duties they will perform on the various batches of new rolling stock. Nor does it mean that they won't change their mind in a few years should the sums not add up and savings are required.

Having said that, I was informed that First did seriously look at DOO / DCO (no doubt in a bid to make friends with the DfT) but concluded that as they were wanting to be an Intercity operator which would guarantee on board staff, and bearing in mind the rolling stock to be operated and the routes they operate on, they concluded there was no business case for altering the current method of working.

 

[HLE]

My point is that a zero hours minimum wage 'walked all over by your employer with no life out of work' style job may be better than unemployment but it dosnt mean it's justifiable to make it the norm for employment. Tory jobless figures are very misleading as the jobs they are creating force people into a poor quality of life with little future prospects and almost no chance of a mortgage etc. They are not interested in creating well paid jobs with good employment conditions.

How dare anyone have such a thing!

Do as you are told at all times or the door is there!!!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Im a railwayman of nearly 30 years service.Ive seen BR,three men on a train,reduced to two and now one
Ive never seen such staff intimidation as now with GTR are inflicting on their workforce
There are people on this forum who obviously have never had union backing and dont expect anyone else to have either and expect the rail workers to submit to what they have to suffer...sorry,we dont work that way
We have hard fought conditions of service and wish to keep them
The Southern Guards are fighting for their jobs...I support them wholeheartedly
GTR are Connex with a different name...nothing more
A GTR Driver,ready to stand with my Conductor Brothers

Now where did I see that like button!

 

[Robertj21a]

My point is that a zero hours minimum wage 'walked all over by your employer with no life out of work' style job may be better than unemployment but it dosnt mean it's justifiable to make it the norm for employment. Tory jobless figures are very misleading as the jobs they are creating force people into a poor quality of life with little future prospects and almost no chance of a mortgage etc. They are not interested in creating well paid jobs with good employment conditions.

Needless to say, it's only your personal, highly biased, view that so many of these jobs are zero hours etc. Perhaps they are in your area, but that's certainly not the case over the country as a whole. People who had to rely on benefits alone before can now genuinely feel that they are earning money in their own right - to me that's very good progress and I can't see how anyone can feel otherwise.

 

[A-driver]

Needless to say, it's only your personal, highly biased, view that so many of these jobs are zero hours etc. Perhaps they are in your area, but that's certainly not the case over the country as a whole. People who had to rely on benefits alone before can now genuinely feel that they are earning money in their own right - to me that's very good progress and I can't see how anyone can feel otherwise.

How patronising towards those in such jobs. You believe that as you clearly support such Tory policies and are anti Union-your post history proves that. So suggesting I'm biased (rather than realistic) is rather pot, kettle, black!

 

[Robertj21a]

How patronising towards those in such jobs. You believe that as you clearly support such Tory policies and are anti Union-your post history proves that. So suggesting I'm biased (rather than realistic) is rather pot, kettle, black!

Ok, so you're realistic.......[Ha ha ha]

Not patronising at all. If I was on the dole and could get a job that gave me an income apart from relying on benefits then I would jump at the chance. I don't recall the Labour party doing much for those people so I'll support any party that does - a bit ironic if you feel that those improvements in my life can only be achieved by supporting the Tories.

I don't want to derail this useful thread, so suggest that you start a fresh one if you want to discuss dole queues or Trade Unions.

 

[ComUtoR]

Do as you are told at all times or the door is there!!!

We have a Manager who regularly uses that line.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

We have a Manager who regularly uses that line.

Never been the same since they closed the workhouses in Britain....:roll:

 

[Skimble19]

We have a Manager who regularly uses that line.

Bit like how Dyan the Wicked Witch of the South is happy to tell a room full of staff that, or in the case of managers where the nearest job centre is!! (Or was that who you were referring to? )

 

[jimbo99]

I know a number of people on zero-hours contracts. They don't feel exploited - they just recognise they are in a business subject to peaks and troughs in demands. They generally get the hours they want and enjoy the flexibility which to some extent works both ways. Not saying all zero-hours jobs work that way.

One of them now works for Southern and still has the same mentality about working hours though he is no longer on such a contract himself. He is waiting to train as a driver and is currently an RMT "convenor" (or whatever). Of course he sticks to the "union line", for the benefit of members.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I know a number of people on zero-hours contracts. They don't feel exploited - they just recognise they are in a business subject to peaks and troughs in demands

The students I know on zero hours contracts enjoy the flexibility.

Everyone else? They don't say they feel exploited because they know that if they upset their boss they won't be getting any hours at all. Restaurant staff, in particular, know this only too well. If bookings are a bit quiet they get sent home, no pay, even though they've just paid to get there.

Zero hours contracts are nothing more than passing the financial risk of a quiet night in the restaurant from the wealthy hedge-fund restaurant owners to the poorest people in the business.

Of course many people who claim to be on "zero hours contracts" are actually contractors in IT or management, which really isn't the same thing at all.