Lost IAS appeal - is it worth pursuing further?

[moldfield]

Hi,

Am wondering if I should just give up and pay or can I appeal again?

I am aware I need to pay something though was hoping for a compromise on the fine.

Circumstances:

I bought return ticket to Cambridge from machine in Liverpool St.

Just below open standard class fare at £34 was a what I thought an open 1st class at £37 - for 3 extra pounds I thought I would upgrade.

It turned out the fare was not an open first class but a day return first class (I did not check printed tickets). On return journey next day ticket collector advised ticket was not valid. I apologized said genuine mistake and offered to pay difference. It seems ticket inspectors are not programmed to compromise and issue my penalty fare of twice single first class fare £64.

I have appealed and sent a copy of my hotel booking and receipt hoping to show I had every attention of not returning same day, alas the appeal has been declined since it is my responsibility to have checked my ticket.

I know I need to pay something and I would have thought paying the difference would be a reasonable settlement. I do get annoyed at being treated the same as someone hiding in the toilet.

Is it worth another appeal? and if so, is this possible? or, should I just take my medicine and cough up?

Thanks you for reading

Matt

 

[221129]

To be blunt, you were in the wrong. If I was you I would pay up and soon, as you will likely get a summons in due course if you do not.

 

[AlterEgo]

You haven't been treated the same way as someone hiding in the toilet might. Someone intentionally avoiding the fate might get done under the Regulation of Railways Act, a much more serious matter. A penalty fare, which is what you have, is for people who make innocent mistakes. The offence is strict liability and you won't get it waived no matter what you do.

Pay the penalty fare and move on.

 

[Chew Chew]

How much was the cost of the ticket you thought you'd bought?

I'd say pay up, put it down to experience and, without meaning to be rude, take more care in the future.

 

[najaB]

...the appeal has been declined since it is my responsibility to have checked my ticket.

Indeed it is. If you had then you would have know that you didn't have a valid ticket.

Pay the Penalty Fare, complain to customer services if you feel the need to and then move on with life.

 

[gray1404]

I would complain to Customer Service of the company whose TVM to got the ticket from. Explain how it was not clear and misleading. You could also do the same via Customer Service of the train company that issued the PF. Of course anything they give you will be a good will gesture.

 

[Clip]

I would complain to Customer Service of the company whose TVM to got the ticket from. Explain how it was not clear and misleading. You could also do the same via Customer Service of the train company that issued the PF. Of course anything they give you will be a good will gesture.

these would both be the same company. How do you know it wasnt clear or was misleading? Im pretty sure the TVMS at Liv St are pretty clear on stating day rather than anything else and they also have a little info button to click on for full details so how its missleading ill never know.

And of course I must stress that its on the onus of the passenger to ensure they have the correct tickets for travel.

 

[Clip]

Also worth noting that an open return is nearly double the price.

 

[furlong]

Under the applicable National Rail Conditions of Carriage:

21. Buying tickets
As soon as you can, you should check that the details shown on the ticket are consistent with the journey you intend to make

Am wondering if I should just give up and pay or can I appeal again?

Firstly, while you can appeal again, unless you have some new and valid reason for that (which seems unlikely unless you find some technicality), why would you expect the result not to be the same?

The contract places an obligation upon you to check your ticket "as soon as you can" and the printing on the face of the ticket will have made its validity unambiguous so you don't have any realistic alternative but to pay up and put it down to experience.

A ticket has no validity after its expiry date so there was no scope for charging any difference in fares. Ticketing mistakes are dealt with by customer services departments on a case-by-case basis. While there's nothing to lose in writing to them about what happened after you've paid up, I wouldn't hold out much hope of success.

 

[319321]

NOTE: The moderators of this forum sometimes consider my opinions controversial. I have provided full references for the opinion given in this post. You should follow up these references before making your own mind up on what action to take.

If I was minded to appeal this, this is the letter I would send:

Dear Sir / Madam,

I would like to appeal a penalty fare ID_HERE I was given on DAY_HERE. I purchased the ticket on PREVIOUS_DAY_HERE from a Ticket Vending Machine at Liverpool Street Station as the return part of a return journey, whereby I intended to take the outward journey on the day of purchase and the return journey the day following purchase. On looking at the options available to me, I noticed that there was a first class option available which was only about £3 more than the option I had chosen so I selected that in order get a more comfortable journey.

I thought that I was purchasing a open return rather than the day return which was issued, and it was not until I was confronted at the barriers of Liverpool Street that this error had occurred. I already had a hotel booked and have previously submitted evidence of my need for a ticket that allowed me to return the following day.

The machine could have been cleared that it was changing the type of ticket it was selling me to a day ticket, rather an an open return in accordance with condition 12. It was not obvious to me (and was not noticed by me (nor anyone else) until I was challenged after making the return journey) that the return portion of the journey must be made the same day as the outward journey, as this was only displayed on the final ticket after I had made my purchase.

I am appealing on the ground that the penalty fare should not have been issued under Penalty Fares Rule 7.6 and National Rail Condition of Carriage 12.

An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare to a person whose ticket is not valid only because of a published restriction, as described in condition 12 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) in addition to/other than those in Condition 10 above such as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can be used. These restrictions will be made clear to you by the seller when you buy your ticket. If a restriction applies and the ticket you are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then:

(a) you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train for the journey shown on the ticket)

This is because my ticket was valid for the train that I was using but for the fact that I was using it on a different date to that I was allowed to. I had not fully checked the date and was allowed through the barriers at Cambridge without the date of my ticket being challenged, so I had no reason to believe that the ticket was not valid. I believe that the ticket machine should have made it clear that I was changing the dates that I could use my return ticket on was changing from a month to the same day, and that had this been pointed out to me at Cambridge I could have excessed the ticket from a day ticket to a saver without a problem.

If the time you purchased your ticket (e.g. evening) would indicate you had need for an overnight ticket, add that here as well.

When I was challenged I realised the mistake that had been made and offered to pay the difference. This was not acceptable to the member of staff. I have since been charged a penalty fare of £(insert amount here).

I am not happy with this. I feel that the appropriate amount due for an excess is
LIVERPOOL ST - CAMBRIDGE ANY PERMITTED 1ST OFF-PEAK RETURN = £51.00
minus
LIVERPOOL ST - CAMBRIDGE AGA ONLY 1ST OFF-PEAK DAY RETURN = £31.20
equals
£20.80

I do not dispute the liability for the excess to the price of a period return ticket. Please consider this appeal in a fair and reasonable way.

Yours Faithfully,

Matt.



=======================
Assumptions made:
- You were caught at the Liverpool Street gates on your return journey because you say you are being charged twice the full cost of a first class single from Cambridge to Liverpool Street (if not, then you should only be charged the penalty rate between Cambridge and the next train stop, then the full single to Liverpool Street as well)

- The only tickets or default tickets offered at Liverpool Street are the AGA only ones

- The AGA only (Greater Anglia only) ones are the ones you used and the ones that you are comparing (there is no AGA ONLY route for the 1st Class Period Return, only the day return)

- You weren't on a FCC train or travelling at a peak time on an off peak ticket.

- Italiced / underlined stuff is for you to say if it is true, or modify if it isn't.

 

[najaB]

If I was minded to appeal this...

To the OP: Nothing in 319321's post is valid grounds for appeal.

 

[AlterEgo]

I strongly advise the OP not to follow the advice in 319321's post. The OP's ticket had expired and that is not the thrust of Condition 12 of the NRCoC. Condition 12 is referring to Advances and other tickets which are day-specific. The argument that as long as you're carrying an expired ticket then you're immune from being PF'd holds no water and I would implore the OP to not choose to contest the PF further.

It's frankly irresponsible advice given by a poster who is a speculative complainer, to a newbie poster unfamiliar with the minefield in which he is walking.

 

[319321]

I strongly advise the OP not to follow the advice in 319321's post. The OP's ticket had expired and that is not the thrust of Condition 12 of the NRCoC. Condition 12 is referring to Advances and other tickets which are day-specific. The argument that as long as you're carrying an expired ticket then you're immune from being PF'd holds no water and I would implore the OP to not choose to contest the PF further.

It's frankly irresponsible advice given by a poster who is a speculative complainer, to a newbie poster unfamiliar with the minefield in which he is walking.

He had no reason to believe his ticket had expired. Condition 12 states that the onus is on the ticket seller to ensure that the ticket purchaser is away of the date restrictions on the ticket.

I am not saying that holding an expired ticket makes one immune to a penalty fare, only that in this case (and maybe specific others) does having purchased a ticket innocently and travelled on it innocently mean that he should be except from one.

My advice was posted with a warning about the fact that some here consider my views controversial, but also with references and quotes from the National Rail Condition of Carriage and the Penalty Fares Rules.

To the OP: Nothing in 319321's post is valid grounds for appeal.

That's najab's opinion. Not mine. Make your own mind up OP. Read the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and the Penalty Fares Rules for yourself, and then decided if you think you have grounds for appeal.

 

[AlterEgo]

He had no reason to believe his ticket had expired.

Except for the date written on it.

He has no grounds for appeal.

I am a very consumer oriented poster, but the advice you are giving to a new poster is very irresponsible.

 

[319321]

Except for the date written on it.

The date written on it would only be viewable after the ticket had been printed, which is after it had been selected and paid for.

Lets say you had walked up to a machine. There was a sign on the machine, in a size 8 font, saying that all return tickets must be used today, regardless of whether or not they were issued as period returns or not. You didn't see that notice.

You go to the machine, click through the options, print the tickets, stuff them in your wallet without checking them because you know you paid the price you always pay and pressed the buttons you always pushed, and go on your journey.

The next day, you pull the ticket out of your wallet, and the ticket inspector says "this ticket expired yesterday". You say, oh, but I bought it from a machine and selected SAVER RETURN. He says, no you should have known it was only valid yesterday. "Look, boy, it says it right here on the ticket. Expired yesterday. Tut tut tut".

How do you feel?

This analogy is simular to the OP's post because he selected a period return, but then the machine changed it to a 1st class off peak day return without checking that a day return would still meet the requirements of the OP.

 

[AlterEgo]

That's all well and good, and I agree with the thrust of your points, but none of what you say constitutes valid grounds for appeal. That is the long and short of the matter.

 

[319321]

That's all well and good, and I agree with the thrust of your points, but none of what you say constitutes valid grounds for appeal. That is the long and short of the matter.

Perhaps if you explained how your reached your conclusion that there are no valid grounds for appeal, given that the Penalty Fares Rules say what I quoted, and National Rail Condition of Carriage 12 does state what I quoted in abridged form?

 

[najaB]

...the machine changed it to...

The machine didn't change anything. The OP did.

 

[319321]

The machine didn't change anything. The OP did.

Read the OP. He believed he was changing from Standard Class to First Class. That's all he changed.

 

[najaB]

Read the OP. He believed he was changing from Standard Class to First Class. That's all he changed.

Regardless of what the OP believed, the machine didn't change anything, they did. Every ticket machine I've ever used gives the passenger the option to confirm what ticket they are purchasing before payment is taken. Given that they stated they specifically noticed that the ticket was only £3 more, they should have checked either the machine or the ticket to be sure of what they were buying.

 

[AlterEgo]

Perhaps if you explained how your reached your conclusion that there are no valid grounds for appeal, given that the Penalty Fares Rules say what I quoted, and National Rail Condition of Carriage 12 does state what I quoted in abridged form?

As I stated earlier, the wording of Condition 12 does not indemnify a passenger from being Penalty Fared if he has an expired ticket. You may think it says that, and I can see where you are coming from, but I have experience of assisting passengers to right wrongs and how TOCs and prosecutions teams behave, gained both inside and outside the industry.

The notion that you are immune from penalty fares as long as you have an expired ticket for your route on your person is ridiculous. (Would an expired ticket from 2008 be okay?)

The OP would leave himself open to a protracted and irritating dispute which he would have very little chance of winning.

Pay the penalty fare, OP, and chalk it down to experience.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Read the OP. He believed he was changing from Standard Class to First Class. That's all he changed.

These are not relevant grounds to appeal a penalty fare - "I didn't know what I was buying, I didn't know what ticket I had". Not valid grounds. End.

 

[jon0844]

I have seen how bad some TVM software can be, with truncated text and tickets in no particular order based on restrictions or price.

There can be no doubt there's no way to appeal, so I'd say pay and then write in to make a complaint about the software and see if they'll at the very least look to make a change, like making things clearer.

Only last week a TVM offered me a London Terminals ticket for Welwyn Garden City to Blackfriars. It isn't valid, and I can imagine the fun convincing revenue staff that it was offered by the machine.



Suffice to say, I think it's very easy to make a mistake. Just the fact I have to sometimes select a ticket, then a price, then a railcard and it then resets my ticket choice and makes me have to find the ticket again (now at a lower price) is proof of why the software needs improving and being standardised to an agreed railway standard, not what each manufacturer offers.

But that's for another topic.

 

[185]

Glad I've seen that. Up til that^ post above, that was the only 'what if' doing the rounds in my head.

I'd pay it, asap - they have you bang to rights with an invalid ticket

 

[All Line Rover]

Read the OP. He believed he was changing from Standard Class to First Class. That's all he changed.

Unless the TVM (Ticket Vending Machine) said "First Off-Peak Return" instead of "First Off-Peak Day Return" (which I highly doubt), the OP has no grounds for complaint. What the OP thought the machine was offering is irrelevant. As long as the TVM made clear that the ticket was a day return, the requirement for a ticket seller to make clear a ticket's restrictions is satisfied.

The example provided by jonmorris0844 would be a legitimate ground for complaint, but it is not relevant to the OP.

You appear to be under the impression that the TVM the OP dealt with had a pop-up saying "Would you like to upgrade to first class for £3?", which the OP tapped and the machine then substituted the standard class Off-Peak Return originally selected with a First Class Off-Peak Day Return. I'm not aware of any TVM which does that, and don't read the OP's account in this way.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I thought that I was purchasing a open return rather than the day return which was issued, and it was not until I was confronted at the barriers of Liverpool Street that this error had occurred. I already had a hotel booked and have previously submitted evidence of my need for a ticket that allowed me to return the following day.

I realise you are only repeating what the OP said here, but I have no idea how this is supposed to help the OP. If anything, it is a hindrance. Most people who attempt to use a day return as a period return have a need to return on a date later than the outward journey, otherwise they would have purchased the day return!

 

[319321]

To The OP.

If what All Line Rover says to you applies, then continue with the appeal. If not, you could still try but I think the opinion of most on here is its not worth the time or trouble.

For what it's worth, I think you have been treated harshly.

Update 0004

SOrry ,but the meds are kicking in. Some will be happy.

The essential point is that the options for the return were either 'day return' or 'return', or first class versions of the same. There was no first class off-peak return though, which might be confusing. I'll update this post and hopefully get the video uploaded tomorrow morning.

 

[All Line Rover]

The notion that you are immune from penalty fares as long as you have an expired ticket for your route on your person is ridiculous. (Would an expired ticket from 2008 be okay?)

I think 319321's argument rests on the assumption that the TVM changed the ticket from a standard class period return to a first class day return without mentioning, at that or any subsequent stage during the transaction, that it had changed the ticket from a period return to a day return. If that was true, I'd agree with 319321. Reading a ticket to check if it is a period return or a day return doesn't constitute a ticket seller making clear the applicable restrictions. But, much as I am critical of the rail industry for their frequent misleading programming of TVMs (principally, hiding cheaper tickets), I find it hard to believe that they would ever go this far.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

For what it's worth, I think you have been treated harshly.

In this particular case I find it hard to agree. The OP appears to expect to pay only what he should have paid, and only because he was (eventually) noticed to have an invalid ticket. This is hardly an effective way to deter fare evasion. Some sort of penalty is necessary, and the Penalty Fare charged to the OP seems reasonable. That said, at least the OP held a first class ticket!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think 319321's argument rests on the assumption that the TVM changed the ticket from a standard class period return to a first class day return without mentioning, at that or any subsequent stage during the transaction, that it had changed the ticket from a period return to a day return

Even given the appalling UI on near enough all TVMs, I have never seen one do that. My conclusion would be that the OP selected the ticket.

 

[All Line Rover]

While this is not relevant to the OP because the OP would not have purchased a first class period return ticket due to the cost, I am interested to know whether the TVMs at Liverpool Street only display "AGA Only" tickets to Cambridge (for which no FOR ticket is available), or also display the "Any Permitted" FOR ticket to Cambridge. I expect the latter, but if the former, it needs looking into for the benefit of other passengers. It's cheeky of AGA to offer "AGA Only" tickets to Cambridge because they are hardly any cheaper than the "Any Permitted" tickets but create needless confusion, particularly as the available ticket types don't overlap perfectly. It's rather like Nuneaton to Milton Keynes - a simple journey with incredibly confusing ticket options (where some "LM Only" tickets cost more than "Any Permitted" tickets - even the standard class season ticket!).

 

[AlterEgo]

Even given the appalling UI on near enough all TVMs, I have never seen one do that. My conclusion would be that the OP selected the ticket.

Even if he didn't, and the machine was at fault, he has still - by the rules - been correctly PF'd.

NRCoC 12 only comes into it if you agree that the PF rules say that you can't be PF'd if you have a completely expired ticket. I do not agree that is the intention of the wording - a ticket restricted by date or time is clearly meant to apply to Advances (and some older ticket types no doubt). A completely expired ticket is not covered by the wording; we can split hairs about that, but my point stands. Does anyone really think the PF rules give you immunity from PFs as long as you have a ticket for the route you're travelling on - even a really old, totally expired one - on your person?

If you agree with my school of thought - that the PF rules do not indemnify the OP for having a completely expired ticket - then you don't need to refer to Condition 12. It doesn't come into the equation.

I would finally point out that the period within which you can use a ticket is covered wholly within Condition ELEVEN of the NRCoC. Condition 12 clearly does not deal with wholly expired tickets and I'm now satisfied I have closed this ridiculous argument down.

11. The period during which you can use a ticket

The period during which a ticket is valid is printed on the ticket or will be made clear to you when you buy your ticket. If you use a ticket after the expiry of the ticket’s validity, you may be treated as having joined a train without a ticket and Condition 2 or 4 will apply.
If, as a result of a delay to your train, the validity of the ticket you are using expires
during your journey, you will still be allowed to complete that journey. However, in these circumstances, you may not break your journey unless your train is so delayed that a break is reasonably required

While the OP may (or may not) have grounds to complain about the TVM, we should be in no doubt that "I didn't know I had an expired ticket, wasn't clear" isn't a valid appeal route for a PF.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree, a PF is appropriate if an expired ticket is held.