Class 387 to GN

[crazystripe]

There's some good early info dotted around on other threads about the forthcoming use of class 387s on the Great Northern routes, but its interspersed with details around the 387s for GWR and GatEx.

With that in mind, I thought it might be helpful to start a thread focused on the transition of the move of units from the 387/1 fleet onto GN.

As of this morning, I can see that there are 2x8 car units sitting at Hornsey, and I understand the ultimate aim is to transition 29x4 car units over to GN this year, from Thameslink. Is that still correct?

It would also be good to keep tabs on:
- status of testing and/or driver training, and any potential issues
- date of likely introduction into service
- which units/diagrams are likely to be replaced first (assuming it would be 317/321 units that will be first to be replaced)
- whether the 387s are intended for P'Boro as well as Cambridge/Kings Lynn
- whether there's an intention to make any significant timetable changes on the GN routes from the Dec 2018 timetable, to account for the elimination of the (slower) 317/321 fleet

Thanks in advance for any information that might be available.

 

[D365]

Just to add to that, it appears that 19x Class 365 will be kept, as was originally planned. This means that Great Northern will be seeing an increase of ten units from when the 19 377/5s were originally mooted.

As far as introduction to service is concerned, I heard Autumn 2016. The 317/321 fleet is supposed to be going off-lease by December 2016, so I'm hoping to soon see a few 387s down Peterborough way.

 

[jon0844]

GN has put up posters talking about new air conditioned trains from the autumn. Perhaps wisely there are no specific dates on it, as that would be a marketing nightmare when some people will kick off if it happened a day late.

 

[petersi]

Wonder if they put any of those posters south of Stevenage as I willing to bet in normal running the outer stoppers will not be 387.

They are only occasionally 365's currently

 

[class387]

Wonder if they put any of those posters south of Stevenage as I willing to bet in normal running the outer stoppers will not be 387.

They are only occasionally 365's currently

At least 25% of the Cambridge and Peterborough stoppers I use are 365s, and my afternoon train, which is a King's Cross - Welwyn Garden City stopper is almost always a 4 car 365.

 

[jopsuk]

Off peak the Peterborough GN and Cambridge stoppers/Semi fasts will all be Thameslink 700s, the Moorgate services (curtailed to Stevenage) will be 6-car Desiro City with just the fast services to Cambridge using 387s (fast services to Peterborough will be Class 800/801, of course- lets not forget that Peterborough's express service is provided by the ECML long distance franchise, lets not pretend that the Thameslink services will be all it gets)

 

[crazystripe]

Off peak the Peterborough GN and Cambridge stoppers/Semi fasts will all be Thameslink 700s, the Moorgate services (curtailed to Stevenage) will be 6-car Desiro City with just the fast services to Cambridge using 387s (fast services to Peterborough will be Class 800/801, of course- lets not forget that Peterborough's express service is provided by the ECML long distance franchise, lets not pretend that the Thameslink services will be all it gets)

Any ideas about the peak Peterborough limited stop services (e.g. first stop Hitchin/Biggleswade/St Neots)? I was thinking they would also be Class 387...

 

[jopsuk]

Most likely the peak Peterborough's will 365s- the 19 being retained are essentially for the peak extra services.

 

[D365]

Most likely the peak Peterborough's will 365s- the 19 being retained are essentially for the peak extra services.

I'm not complaining, but there are now going to be ten more 387s than the originally planned 377s. How will the additional units be made use of?

 

[class387]

Off peak the Peterborough GN and Cambridge stoppers/Semi fasts will all be Thameslink 700s, the Moorgate services (curtailed to Stevenage) will be 6-car Desiro City with just the fast services to Cambridge using 387s (fast services to Peterborough will be Class 800/801, of course- lets not forget that Peterborough's express service is provided by the ECML long distance franchise, lets not pretend that the Thameslink services will be all it gets)

What is this plan about curtailing to Stevenage? I've never heard anything about it, so please could someone explain?

 

[swt_passenger]

What is this plan about curtailing to Stevenage? I've never heard anything about it, so please could someone explain?

Page 45 of the TSGN consultation report and stakeholder briefing of 2013:

2018 onwards
[...]
4.90 Bidders will no longer be required to operate Hertford Loop services north of Stevenage, taking advantage of a new terminating platform to be provided by Network Rail at Stevenage station for these services. This is designed to improve service performance on the Hertford Loop and for mainline services, and to enable an increase in fast off-peak services from Letchworth, Stevenage and Hitchin to London and more trains from stations on the Hertford Loop to Moorgate.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...a/file/245205/consultation-responses-tsgn.pdf

However the new Stevenage turn back is currently deferred into CP6, so how that impacts on the above I have no idea.

 

[class387]

Page 45 of the TSGN consultation report and stakeholder briefing of 2013:



However the new Stevenage turn back is currently deferred into CP6, so how that impacts on the above I have no idea.

So nothing to do with Welwyn services then. I always thought it would make sense for Welwyn stoppers to be extended to Stevenage/Letchworth calling all stations so the Cambridge and Peterborough trains can omit Welwyn North and maybe Knebworth (the 2tph Hatfield/WGC-Stevenage isn't adequate in my view, especially since the 797 bus no longer runs).

 

[Deepgreen]

Will the 387s on the GN be passed to 110mph on the slow lines on any sections?

 

[AndyNLondon]

So nothing to do with Welwyn services then. I always thought it would make sense for Welwyn stoppers to be extended to Stevenage/Letchworth calling all stations so the Cambridge and Peterborough trains can omit Welwyn North and maybe Knebworth (the 2tph Hatfield/WGC-Stevenage isn't adequate in my view, especially since the 797 bus no longer runs).

Presumably any attempt to extend the stoppers north of Welwyn Garden City would run into the problem of trying to fit anything else through the bottleneck that is the viaduct & tunnels only being 2 tracks rather than 4 and so not providing anywhere for fast trains to overtake slower ones between WGC & Knebworth.

 

[westcoaster]

Will the 387s on the GN be passed to 110mph on the slow lines on any sections?

I don't think this will happen, I'm told that the 387's already at Hornsey, have had there new style pans removed and had 377 style pans fitted. This is due to the ohle.

 

[Julia]

I've never thought to ask before, but can 8x365 or 8x387 work all the way to Kings Lynn?

If so, what is now the 1635 CBG-KLN desperately needs to be an 8 - it currently drops its rear 4 at CBG which then attach to a southbound service to form the 1647 CBG-KGX. Every time I see it it's full to the point of people being squashed against the doors. Can only get worse when the north station opens and commuters from the science park have an alternative to driving the congested A10...

 

[SPADTrap]

I've never thought to ask before, but can 8x365 or 8x387 work all the way to Kings Lynn?

If so, what is now the 1635 CBG-KLN desperately needs to be an 8 - it currently drops its rear 4 at CBG which then attach to a southbound service to form the 1647 CBG-KGX. Every time I see it it's full to the point of people being squashed against the doors. Can only get worse when the north station opens and commuters from the science park have an alternative to driving the congested A10...

Because Waterbeach and Littleport and Watlington are 4 car platforms.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think this will happen, I'm told that the 387's already at Hornsey, have had there new style pans removed and had 377 style pans fitted. This is due to the ohle.

That's correct, NR Anglia were concerned about the OLE getting damaged!

 

[D365]

I understand that some of the reasoning for the Electrostars being bought in is that they are fitted with SDO and cab-end gangways, therefore they should be able to run north of Cambridge in multiple.

 

[SPADTrap]

I understand that some of the reasoning for the Electrostars being bought in is that they are fitted with SDO and cab-end gangways, therefore they should be able to run north of Cambridge in multiple.

You say that but can you imagine the delay at Waterbeach for example as you wait for everyone to walk and egress from the front 4!? It would be impossible to tell if everyone's off the rear 4 and you'd have PassComs every journey.

 

[bengley]

You say that but can you imagine the delay at Waterbeach for example as you wait for everyone to walk and egress from the front 4!? It would be impossible to tell if everyone's off the rear 4 and you'd have PassComs every journey.

Other way around... Front will be platformed and rear off the platform.

 

[swt_passenger]

You say that but can you imagine the delay at Waterbeach for example as you wait for everyone to walk and egress from the front 4!? It would be impossible to tell if everyone's off the rear 4 and you'd have PassComs every journey.

People in SWT's area managed with 4 cars of 8 (or even 12), or 5 cars of 10, over about a ten year period between the stock being introduced until the full carriage level ASDO was fitted last year.

I don't recall passcomms every journey, or any journey come to that. Perhaps most real passengers can actually cope with the situation, as long as there are suitable announcements onboard and information displays at stations?

 

[Ianno87]

I've never thought to ask before, but can 8x365 or 8x387 work all the way to Kings Lynn?

If so, what is now the 1635 CBG-KLN desperately needs to be an 8 - it currently drops its rear 4 at CBG which then attach to a southbound service to form the 1647 CBG-KGX. Every time I see it it's full to the point of people being squashed against the doors. Can only get worse when the north station opens and commuters from the science park have an alternative to driving the congested A10...

8-cars can work through, provided that:
-They do not call at Waterbeach, Littleport or Watlington
-No more than 5 units total are drawing power between Milton Fen and Littleport, nor more than 5 units drawing power between Littleport and King's Lynn

Currently (SX) the 0621ish King's Lynn-King's Cross and 1814 return convey 8 cars to King's Lynn, as do some of the shoulder peak Ely terminators and Saturday peak 'extras'.

Additionally, the AGA units that work through 4 cars of the 1707 & 1807 Liverpool St-King's Lynn trains combine at Lynn and return to Cambridge as an 8-car ECS.

8 car infrastructure is planned to be provided by 2019.

 

[edwin_m]

Presumably any attempt to extend the stoppers north of Welwyn Garden City would run into the problem of trying to fit anything else through the bottleneck that is the viaduct & tunnels only being 2 tracks rather than 4 and so not providing anywhere for fast trains to overtake slower ones between WGC & Knebworth.

Also trains from the main line turning back at Stevenage would have to cross the fasts on the flat. I assume the new turnback will make use of the bi-directional running via the flying junction (which exists today I think) so that Hertford Loop terminators don't conflict with the fast lines.

 

[Class377/5]

I don't think this will happen, I'm told that the 387's already at Hornsey, have had there new style pans removed and had 377 style pans fitted. This is due to the ohle.

True.

Yet the 700s with the new pan haven't been changed and are running around (limited sections) of the GN.

Why the 125mph ECML can't cope with this type of pans yet the lower spec 100mph MML can is ridiculous.

 

[SPADTrap]

Other way around... Front will be platformed and rear off the platform.

That's what I was saying.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

People in SWT's area managed with 4 cars of 8 (or even 12), or 5 cars of 10, over about a ten year period between the stock being introduced until the full carriage level ASDO was fitted last year.

I don't recall passcomms every journey, or any journey come to that. Perhaps most real passengers can actually cope with the situation, as long as there are suitable announcements onboard and information displays at stations?

When it is the norm perhaps.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

True.

Yet the 700s with the new pan haven't been changed and are running around (limited sections) of the GN.

Why the 125mph ECML can't cope with this type of pans yet the lower spec 100mph MML can is ridiculous.

It's a complex combination of line speed, OLE tension, pantograph uplift, pantograph spacing and pantograph number.

It's very basically the reason why the ECML can support 2 x 5 car IEP sets at 125mph but not 3 x Class 387 at 110mph.

 

[Class377/5]

It's a complex combination of line speed, OLE tension, pantograph uplift, pantograph spacing and pantograph number.

It's very basically the reason why the ECML can support 2 x 5 car IEP sets at 125mph but not 3 x Class 387 at 110mph.

It can't supports any 387 with the new pans so 4 car 387s are barred from running with them expect from NLL to Hornsey depot so spacing is irreverent.

 

[D365]

Do the Class 387 and Class 700 have different 'new' pantographs?

 

[Class 170101]

It's a complex combination of line speed, OLE tension, pantograph uplift, pantograph spacing and pantograph number.

It's very basically the reason why the ECML can support 2 x 5 car IEP sets at 125mph but not 3 x Class 387 at 110mph.

How about 2x Class 387s at 110mph?

 

[RobShipway]

Do the Class 387 and Class 700 have different 'new' pantographs?

Yes, the class 700 looks to be using a Strassenbahn Pantograph or something similar. Whereas the class 387 seems to be using a new developed version of the Bombardier Pantograph.