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Most Hated Bus

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Master29

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I agree they are ugly, but I would nominate the old London Daimler DMS / DM / D class as being the ugliest ever - they tried to emulate the front end appearance of the Trolleybus, but failed dismally in the attempt...

I think the DM/DMS wasn`t all bad, not from a travellers perspective. They had a poor infrastructure around them. Repairs were a problem as parts were unable to be sourced around LT garages. Whereas with the RT/RM they were designed around Aldenham works and had fewer problems. The routemaster wasn`t particularly successful at first and wasn`t generally liked, but LT had to work with it, where with the DMS was not seen as politically viable and so withered away. It could and indeed should have been so different.
 
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Statto

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After experiencing one the other day on the 82 Solihull-Coventry, the Mercedes Benz Citaros are awful, seating isn't even level on the nearside towards the rear of the vehicle, plus dreadful getting into gear, struggled getting up hills, & we're not talking hills with steep gradients either.
 

Jonny

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-Inspired by 'Most Hated Traction' thread-

Has anyone got a particular bus type that they hate, despise and/or try and avoid?

For me it's Scania Omnidekkas with Fainsa seats.

Is any low floor bus too broad? Because it's made bus travel less comfortable. It's too close to the ground.
 

GatwickDepress

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After experiencing one the other day on the 82 Solihull-Coventry, the Mercedes Benz Citaros are awful, seating isn't even level on the nearside towards the rear of the vehicle, plus dreadful getting into gear, struggled getting up hills, & we're not talking hills with steep gradients either.
I think the Citaros are the same bus used on Arriva MK's "Platinum" 300 service between Coachway and CMK. Absolutely awful seats and the vibration and noise was surprising for such a new bus. I had it on a 14/4 combo yesterday so 45 minutes on that damned bus...
 

Peter Mugridge

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I think the DM/DMS wasn't all bad, not from a travellers perspective. They had a poor infrastructure around them. Repairs were a problem as parts were unable to be sourced around LT garages.

I didn't say they were bad from a passenger's perspective; I only said they were the ugliest bus design ever used in London...
 

J-2739

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Is any low floor bus too broad? Because it's made bus travel less comfortable. It's too close to the ground.

Any bus welcome :), but you know, you could try sitting in the raised rear area to emulate the feeling of a step entrance bus (unless it's a Citaro!)
 
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skyhigh

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For me, it would be a tie between the East Lancs Spryte (due to the fact almost every seat appears to have tiny amounts of leg room) and a Dart with Urban 90 seating. My experience is mainly of ones owned by Centrebus - noisy, bumpy, uncomfortable things. Why anyone thought a blow-moulded plastic seat with a bit of cloth on it was a good idea is a mystery to me.
 

61653 HTAFC

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For me, it would be a tie between the East Lancs Spryte (due to the fact almost every seat appears to have tiny amounts of leg room) and a Dart with Urban 90 seating. My experience is mainly of ones owned by Centrebus - noisy, bumpy, uncomfortable things. Why anyone thought a blow-moulded plastic seat with a bit of cloth on it was a good idea is a mystery to me.

Did you get Waterloo's cast-offs?
 

fgwrich

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For me, it would be a tie between the East Lancs Spryte (due to the fact almost every seat appears to have tiny amounts of leg room) and a Dart with Urban 90 seating. My experience is mainly of ones owned by Centrebus - noisy, bumpy, uncomfortable things. Why anyone thought a blow-moulded plastic seat with a bit of cloth on it was a good idea is a mystery to me.

I think there is a place reserved in hell for the designers of the Urban 90. I Had one of the few surviving Ex Truronian Darts still in service with First Kernow this year and really was disappointed to find those in it. Mind you, sadly I would have added that dart to the list of vehicles for the chop as well, given the loud knocking noise coming from underneath it. The GWR one by the way!
 

beermaddavep

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Yep - the Urban 90 is the pogo stick of luxurious seating- however- it has amazingly been surpassed in it's deep vein thrombosis inducing comfort level by the seats fitted by the Turks into the 'Temsa Avenues' that Arriva bought in small amounts a few years back.

Come to Teesside and try one- god help you if it's on a Middlesbrough Whitby service-a patch of uncushioned moquette on a badly shaped plastic seat that's harder than diamond is no way to spend 2 hours..... I honestly reckon the old slatted wooden seats fitted into vintage trams are more comfy......
 

Tetchytyke

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I think there is a place reserved in hell for the designers of the Urban 90.

I never found it that bad in the Lolynes that Arriva had up here, though it was a new level of misery in the Darts.

It's more about the seat pitch as designed, and some buses are designed with too many seats for the space available

Which nicely leads me back to Northern Counties and the hateful Paladin and its successor, the Prestige, which somehow managed to be even worse.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I never found it that bad in the Lolynes that Arriva had up here, though it was a new level of misery in the Darts.

It's more about the seat pitch as designed, and some buses are designed with too many seats for the space available

Which nicely leads me back to Northern Counties and the hateful Paladin and its successor, the Prestige, which somehow managed to be even worse.

Genuine question - do you mean GNE's Lolynes or the Arriva Lowlanders. I've travelled on the latter numerous times in ANE land (various cross Durham services from the 723 to the 55) and Arriva Yorkshire (Goole to Selby, Selby to Leeds etc) and they are dreadful.

However, the Prestige is (as I've said before) a special type of awful. Those who've never experienced one do not know what they've missed!
 

Tetchytyke

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Genuine question - do you mean GNE's Lolynes or the Arriva Lowlanders

Yes, those (again confused by the fact they're giving different names to the same bus body, depending on what chassis it is on).

I used to quite like the Lowlander, I used to ride the 723 a lot when I was at uni at Durham. But then they were brand new then.

Not been on them in recent years, though the Omnidekkas that GNE now have are pretty woeful.
 

AaronR

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What surprises me is how many buses that I thought were well regarded are on this list! Citaro's, Omnidekka's, Wright Eclipse, Wright Commander/Pulsar on SB200 etc. What buses are good?

I get a lot of people saying Olympians and VR's for instance as being good but I do remember in the late 90's and early 2000's that these too were slated!
 
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GusB

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Casting my mind back to the late 1980s, I reckon my most hated bus would be the Dodge/Renault S56.

My local operator was Northern Scotttish and they decided to convert Elgin town services and the evening rural runs to minibus operation using 6 ex-Central Dodges. They were horrendous.

Second to that would be the original Darts.
 

the101

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There was more than one of the post-deregulation minibus types that was dreadful; the Freight Rover Sherpa would give an S56 a run, although the few East Lancs-bodied Dodges were a special kind of dreadful. Iveco Dailys of that generation were bad too.

Optare has also produced its share of junk in the past, with the Excel and Vecta up there. Regardless of body the Dennis Lance was generally poor, while the asthmatic Volvo B6 was never anywhere near a Dart in terms of... anything.

The original-shape E200 must also count as dreadful, given that most rattled like mad from new.
 

J-2739

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What surprises me is how many buses that I thought were well regarded are on this list! Citaro's, Omnidekka's, Wright Eclipse, Wright Commander/Pulsar on SB200 etc. What buses are good?

All to everyone's opinion. I like all these buses (excluding the Omnidekka), but I've always like Alexander Dennis products better, for being very robust and comfy. Wright products can feel cramped at the top because of their curvy roof, and Citaro's just like fire for some reason...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The original-shape E200 must also count as dreadful, given that most rattled like mad from new.

Kinda depends really. The 60 reg ones are so much better in rattle absorbing than the ex-Tates 56 ones. Our 65 reg MMCs are so much better than both of them though.
 

NorthernSpirit

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Royale's as they're cold in winter, felt old (considering that the ALX series was low floor and were cutting edge at the time), the design was something reminicent of a bus derived class 150/1 and for some strange reason always had that creaking and ball bearings rattling upstairs. The lurching about on these buses also did my head in.

One or two of the then Holmfirth Connection branded vehicles also had some large sections of rubber surround cut out from where the top left window is along with some metal flange plates which suggested that these "plates" were only there to hold the window in.

Got to admit now the new Geminis that are used on the rebranded Holme Valley Connection are a damn sight better than it once were.
 

A0wen

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I think the DM/DMS wasn't all bad, not from a travellers perspective. They had a poor infrastructure around them. Repairs were a problem as parts were unable to be sourced around LT garages. Whereas with the RT/RM they were designed around Aldenham works and had fewer problems. The routemaster wasn't particularly successful at first and wasn't generally liked, but LT had to work with it, where with the DMS was not seen as politically viable and so withered away. It could and indeed should have been so different.

The problem was with LT not the DMS.

Fleetlines were used extensively in and around Birmingham, Manchester and Coventry for example.

In London they were based in the outer area - places such as Edgware, Uxbridge or Croydon - and I don't believe for a minute that traffic conditions and infrastructure in those areas were significantly different than around Birmingham, Manchester or Coventry.

LT's problem was their "not invented here" attitude. They tried the same trick when replacing the DMS by pushing for the Titan - which few other places adopted, eventually prevailing upon the Olympian which was very successful and widely used.
 

jp4712

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I can only talk from my experience...

To drive: Guy Arab. Horrid gearbox. Or anything with a Gardner engine with the governor hitting the wall at just over 30 mph.

To ride: anything by Bedford or Ford. Or perhaps a Bristol LH.

To maintain: Guy Wulfrunian of course! But Bedford VAL would be close behind if the brakes needed adjusting; or perhaps a Daimler Roadliner, never came across one.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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The problem was with LT not the DMS.

Fleetlines were used extensively in and around Birmingham, Manchester and Coventry for example.

In London they were based in the outer area - places such as Edgware, Uxbridge or Croydon - and I don't believe for a minute that traffic conditions and infrastructure in those areas were significantly different than around Birmingham, Manchester or Coventry.

LT's problem was their "not invented here" attitude. They tried the same trick when replacing the DMS by pushing for the Titan - which few other places adopted, eventually prevailing upon the Olympian which was very successful and widely used.

Absolutely spot on. There was an article about 30 years ago (think it was a Buses Annual or something) that related to Derby buying some. They couldn't believe the bargain they got and that there were some fundamental maintenance issues that they just couldn't understand - it was as if LT fitters couldn't cope with something that wasn't an AEC.

Of the van derived minis, whilst there were some iffy ones (and some people will never concede they had their uses anyway and why couldn't everything remain operated by a VR), it was the Dodgey S56 for me as I've said before.

Modern day "classics" are the Plaxton Prestige - shocking build quality and an internal design seemingly done by a committee - and the Temsa Avenue.

Before we all get too rose tinted, there have always been iffy designs and vehicles. The Bristol VR had major issues - the mitre box fault within the drive train and the weakness of the ECW body around the rear wheelarches were well known
 

LordCreed

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Optare Solos.

There was nothing worse than one of these turning up instead of a double decker.
 

sk688

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B7tl plaxton presidents

I HATED these buses when Metroline ran them for so long, rattly, And noiser than the aircraft at Heathrow airport , from which they ran their president equipped 140

Thankfully they are starting to go, replaced by b5tl Gemini 3s which are much quieter

I quite like the Wright streetdecks on 340 too, but arriva really can't look after them. 16 plate and they look shabby
 

Busaholic

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The problem was with LT not the DMS.

Fleetlines were used extensively in and around Birmingham, Manchester and Coventry for example.

In London they were based in the outer area - places such as Edgware, Uxbridge or Croydon - and I don't believe for a minute that traffic conditions and infrastructure in those areas were significantly different than around Birmingham, Manchester or Coventry.

LT's problem was their "not invented here" attitude. They tried the same trick when replacing the DMS by pushing for the Titan - which few other places adopted, eventually prevailing upon the Olympian which was very successful and widely used.

DMS were not used exclusively in outer areas. I travelled on one most days from Charing Cross to Euston on the 170 route in 1973/4, and that was one of the first routes to be converted to the type. Other examples were used for crew operation of the 16 and 24, to name two very prominent central London routes, although of course Routemasters formed the bulk of operations in the centre then. Actually, the thinking behind their use was to see if trunk routes into central London could be converted to their use, preferably with opo, with outer routes left to flat-fare (where possible) single deckers, although by the time they began to be introduced it was clear that the AEC Swift was going to be no more use than the AEC Merlin for the latter. Red Arrow routes were a special case, LT only allowing flat fares in central London for limited distances, and, in any case, the lack of suitable inner garages effectively stifled their expansion.
 

randyrippley

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worst buses I've ever rode on were in India in Ahmedabad
Repurposed old British double deckers. Some were coupled together back-to-back in pairs as a kind of multiple unit, one cab leading, one trailing with only one engine in use at a time. Others, where the engine had failed, had the whole engine, cab and front axle cut away and the remains were then articulated from a knackered old lorry cab. Paintwork was random bright blotches, as many different crude splats as possible, while the interiors were best described as tortured and fouled.
Can't remember the exact details of what the buses were, but I seem to remember Dennis and Daimler badges on some.
 

Alex 2901

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After today, BYD Electrics...
The one I had in Nottingham earlier was awful, made me, gulp, wish for the Solos back! Now there's a statement I never thought I would have to say...
 

Busaholic

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After today, BYD Electrics...
The one I had in Nottingham earlier was awful, made me, gulp, wish for the Solos back! Now there's a statement I never thought I would have to say...

Can you elucidate? I haven't been on one, so would like to know what to expect.
 

GusB

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I think the DM/DMS wasn't all bad, not from a travellers perspective. They had a poor infrastructure around them. Repairs were a problem as parts were unable to be sourced around LT garages. Whereas with the RT/RM they were designed around Aldenham works and had fewer problems. The routemaster wasn't particularly successful at first and wasn't generally liked, but LT had to work with it, where with the DMS was not seen as politically viable and so withered away. It could and indeed should have been so different.

LT's maintenance policy for RTs and RMs had been to remove body from chassis, and refurbish each separately. Eventually a refurbished body would meet a refurbished chassis/running gear set, but it was never the same vehicle. Just like when you have a brush and the handle fails. Then the brush-head gets worn out. You still have a brush, but none of the parts are original.

From Rear-engined Double-deckers by Gavin Booth:
This 'off-the-peg' model based on the Daimler Fleetline did not perform in London, and seemed unsuitable to LT's maintenance system. The size of London's order delayed Fleetline deliveries to other operators. And when LT decided to sell the vehicles prematurely, they were quickly snapped up by a wide variety of operators, who chose these in some cases instead of new buses, further depressing the new bus market. The ghost of the DMS has haunted the British bus scene since 1970...

There was nothing wrong with the Fleetline. The simple fact of the matter was that they weren't suited to an organisation whose maintenance and overhaul methods had hitherto relied on bespoke solutions. We're going to see problems when the NB4L (a bespoke London solution) becomes life-expired in the capital, but has nowhere to go when it reaches the end of its London life.
 

A0wen

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LT's maintenance policy for RTs and RMs had been to remove body from chassis, and refurbish each separately. Eventually a refurbished body would meet a refurbished chassis/running gear set, but it was never the same vehicle. Just like when you have a brush and the handle fails. Then the brush-head gets worn out. You still have a brush, but none of the parts are original.

From Rear-engined Double-deckers by Gavin Booth:


There was nothing wrong with the Fleetline. The simple fact of the matter was that they weren't suited to an organisation whose maintenance and overhaul methods had hitherto relied on bespoke solutions. We're going to see problems when the NB4L (a bespoke London solution) becomes life-expired in the capital, but has nowhere to go when it reaches the end of its London life.

Further questions were asked about the DMS in the mid-80s when a number of LRT contracts were let which were won by independents using DMSs which London Buses had been busy divesting themselves of - notable winners being London Buslines and Ensign. The obvious question was why when LT operated them didn't they work properly on the route yet when an independent took them on they did........

I believe such losses enforced a change of policy by London Buses who then kept the remaining (mainly B20) Fleetlines until the late 80s / early 90s when they'd previously been slated for withdrawl.
 
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