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NRCoC replaced by NRCoT from 1/10/2016

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jon0844

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Must be the same people who design accessible ticket machines, thinking accessible = wheelchairs and that you just make everything low down.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Must be the same people who design accessible ticket machines, thinking accessible = wheelchairs and that you just make everything low down.

Which of course will present a problem when the very tall younger generation can no longer bend over to use them. You really need both heights, or a very large touch screen (32"+, like McD are using for their ordering system) and the ability to easily move the display up and down.

There are already trains with the door open button so low down I have to either hunch over or bend my knees slightly to reach it, which when I'm in my 70s or 80s I may not be able to do. Those really need two, one low down for wheelchair users and children, and one about 4' 6" off the ground for others.
 

ainsworth74

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The only scenario I recall where it was enforced was in those Stagecoach megatrain fares. Does this even exist anymore?

East Coast had a go at charging someone who stopped short. Though I think I've since heard that staff gave them the 'I'll let you off this time' treatment at the gateline and it was the passenger that insisted that they do what they were threatening (require purchase of a new ticket) which he then used to complain.

There's a BBC article on it here that gives the basics.

I believe it was that incident that led to the unwritten 'passengers can stop short on all ticket types' rule.

Given that TOC pricing managers read these forums and make changes, could ATOC do the same?

People who work for ATOC do read the forum (one of them even posts from time to time). Of course if ATOC wanted to take advantage of the forum and run things like this past us to gather our thoughts (with of course no requirement to then listen to them) they'd be welcome to do so! Might save them some bother :lol:
 

hairyhandedfool

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I'm very surprised that nobody has yet spotted this one.

National Rail Conditions of Travel page 15 said:
16.4 Generally, you may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction
in the case of a return Ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the
Ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. However, this may not
be the case with some through services that take an indirect route. You may
also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) before
the destination shown on the Ticket

The lack of "Generally" on this second clause, and its separation from "start, or break and resume" (also note the word "and" there --- again implying that breaking alone doesn't count) implies to me that you can end your journey early without any restriction, in all cases. This would solidify the recent encouragement for TOCs to be lax on people finishing early on Advances. This also to me (combined with the removal of the definition of "break of journey") implies that it is now classed as a separate concept to BoJ. I'm not going to try to use this, but I'm curious: is my interpretation correct here?

I did make note of this in another point, but it may have been in one of the 'splinter' threads that have popped up. But you may wish to take note of Condition 16.1 on page 14.

National Rail Conditions of Travel said:
16.1 The Conditions in this section apply to ordinary train Tickets, but may vary
for individual products, especially discount and promotional Tickets. The
conditions and any exclusions applying to these will be explained when you
buy those Tickets.

Again this is something which appears to not have been thought through very well.
 

TUC

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You get dogs that sense blood sugar levels for diabetics (hoping to train our puppy in this for our son). Diabetes is obviously an invisible disability. I'm sure there are plenty of other disabled assistance dog roles.
I agree that assistance dogs are wider than guide dogs or hearing dogs, but I do think that accrss should be limited to assistance dogs from recognised organisations. Otherwise you get people claiming that the dog they happen to have with them is an assistance doh. This matters because it is partly the fact that assistance dogs are trained to be well behaved that gets them access.
 

infobleep

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I agree that assistance dogs are wider than guide dogs or hearing dogs, but I do think that accrss should be limited to assistance dogs from recognised organisations. Otherwise you get people claiming that the dog they happen to have with them is an assistance doh. This matters because it is partly the fact that assistance dogs are trained to be well behaved that gets them access.
OS there currently away of telling which dogs are from recognised organisations? Not sure if that would be workable.

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So if one is a season ticket holder, which terms and conditions are most favorable overall, the current ones or the new ones?

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TUC

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OS there currently away of telling which dogs are from recognised organisations? Not sure if that would be workable.


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Assistance Dogs UK is the representative body of orgamisations providing assistance dogs http://www.assistancedogs.org.uk , so accepting any dogs trained by one of their member bodies could be the way to do it.
 

Solent&Wessex

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I am sure some members will not be surprised to learn that with the new NRCOT now in force, my colleagues and I have not received any official briefing or information about the changes. Officially as far as we are concerned nothing has changed.
 

infobleep

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I am sure some members will not be surprised to learn that with the new NRCOT now in force, my colleagues and I have not received any official briefing or information about the changes. Officially as far as we are concerned nothing has changed.
Perhaps they are implementing a soft lunch!

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infobleep

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I wish! We only got a memo on paper [emoji38]
I didn't even spot my spelling error when I first read this. Dam it. Now it makes sense. Lol.
Like a banana sandwich?
I of course mention launch, which I do know how to spell even but that doesn't mean I'll spot the mistake.

So now the new conditions are in force, which do people prefer, the previous ones or the new ones?

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Merseysider

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infobleep said:
So now the new conditions are in force, which do people prefer, the previous ones or the new ones?
With the exception of the Condition covering the use of more than one ticket, I prefer the old Conditions. Not much has changed but at least then there was very little ambiguity.
 

hairyhandedfool

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I am sure some members will not be surprised to learn that with the new NRCOT now in force, my colleagues and I have not received any official briefing or information about the changes. Officially as far as we are concerned nothing has changed.

I only got the ATOC brief by email and it read like they believe the only difference is for compensation for various things, a new order for the conditions and some new wording that doesn't change anything.

It is fair to say that I believe many guards at Northern do not know it has changed, and that, whilst most managers are aware it has changed, few realise the full scope of the change because they haven't really looked at it.

I wish! We only got a memo on paper :lol:

Paper? Luxury.....
 

Sprinter153

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Attached is a handy NRCoC-NRCoT conversion guide.
 

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  • Conditions of Travel Ref.pdf
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Paul Duck

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That is really good. I hope that it is printed out and made available on all ticket offices. I'm sure it won't be.

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I'm sure every Northern ticket office and independent ticket offices have a copy of this an can quickly be printed out if needs be. We all got the E mail with that attachment. :)
Northern have to replace, as I'm sure all other TOC's have to, all literature with makes reference to the National Conditions Of Carriage. In terms of ourselves that a few hundred forms that now have to be thrown out this week! :roll:
 

185

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Conditionous, Chapter 14 v 2. Thou shalt not need to stop at yonder boundary with thine combination of tickets.

Today. And so it begins....

A: Right. They aren't valid together. You can't do that on this train as it doesn't stop at X.

B: You know the conditions of carriage changed yesterday?

A: Yeah but that hasn't changed, I don't think.... errr

B: Think it has. Condition 14.2 removed the need to stop for all 'area' type tickets.

A: But it's only on rangers, not PTE tickets....?

At that point the argument swiftly ended for other reasons, however I was able to ascertain after that retail bulletins had gone out - to some staff, at some depots. Nor were there proper retail briefs issued giving guards a summary of the main, relevant changes. When Newsrail Express (the ATOC printed bulletin) stopped being sent out, it seems important things become buried electronically by email.
 

infobleep

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Conditionous, Chapter 14 v 2. Thou shalt not need to stop at yonder boundary with thine combination of tickets.

Today. And so it begins....

A: Right. They aren't valid together. You can't do that on this train as it doesn't stop at X.

B: You know the conditions of carriage changed yesterday?

A: Yeah but that hasn't changed, I don't think.... errr

B: Think it has. Condition 14.2 removed the need to stop for all 'area' type tickets.

A: But it's only on rangers, not PTE tickets....?

At that point the argument swiftly ended for other reasons, however I was able to ascertain after that retail bulletins had gone out - to some staff, at some depots. Nor were there proper retail briefs issued giving guards a summary of the main, relevant changes. When Newsrail Express (the ATOC printed bulletin) stopped being sent out, it seems important things become buried electronically by email.
Do they not email out weekly news bulletin or do they do that buytstaff don't bother to read them? I read all internal communication at work. That's how one knows what's going on.

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I'm sure every Northern ticket office and independent ticket offices have a copy of this an can quickly be printed out if needs be. We all got the E mail with that attachment. :)
Northern have to replace, as I'm sure all other TOC's have to, all literature with makes reference to the National Conditions Of Carriage. In terms of ourselves that a few hundred forms that now have to be thrown out this week! :roll:
That is good to hear. What forms need to be thrown away though and are their replacement forms?

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Paul Duck

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Do they not email out weekly news bulletin or do they do that buytstaff don't bother to read them? I read all internal communication at work. That's how one knows what's going on.

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That is good to hear. What forms need to be thrown away though and are their replacement forms?

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We got told all the Northern customer promise booklets and how to make a complaint leaflets. Also Delay Repay Forms need throwing out we got told. The new leaflets should land today. Although we were told Saturday because Eaglescliffe is open on a Saturday but alas no delivery. :roll:
 

infobleep

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We got told all the Northern customer promise booklets and how to make a complaint leaflets. Also Delay Repay Forms need throwing out we got told. The new leaflets should land today. Although we were told Saturday because Eaglescliffe is open on a Saturday but alas no delivery. :roll:
Do they send them by train?

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Wolfie

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I'm sure every Northern ticket office and independent ticket offices have a copy of this an can quickly be printed out if needs be. We all got the E mail with that attachment. :)
Northern have to replace, as I'm sure all other TOC's have to, all literature with makes reference to the National Conditions Of Carriage. In terms of ourselves that a few hundred forms that now have to be thrown out this week! :roll:

So what about ticket stock given that every single ticket back refers (or perhaps referred) to NRCOC???<D

The Conditions of Carriage for National Rail notes that it only applies to services on National Rail services, and that on LUL services, or any other services for that matter, their own Conditions of Carriage apply. The TfL Conditions of Carriage notes that the Conditions of Carriage applies to it's own services and that the NRCoC (soon NRCoT) apply to National Rail services. It doesn't matter if there is or is not a difference between the two, the expectation can only be that the Conditions of Carriage apply to each service type as appropriate.

Given the briefing says there is little change, I don't think it is intentional, but I can't deny what is in the NRCoT, the particulars of the Travelcard agreement do not seem to be in the contract between traveller and TOC, but rather between ATOC and TfL.

You are reading 14.2 in isolation, read 14.1 first, it starts with "Unless shown below". If 14.2 does not apply, and we safely assume 14.3 and 14.4 do not also, 14.1 does. Both 14.1 and 14.2 require the tickets to meet at a station.


A boundary zone ticket with a Travelcard is not using two tickets, it is one ticket and an extension of it, it does not need to conform to NRCoC Condition 19 or NRCoT Condition 14.

I don't think it is the intention, but it is what it says.

Apparently ATOC doesn't believe there to be much difference between old and new, so maybe there wasn't intended to be, but then those making the rules don't see things from the frontline very often.

Your analysis may be right. Of course TfL has direct control over several TOCs and, given the pressure Sadiq came under over the less than complete fares freeze in London due to the National Rail element, you better believe that he will give the incumbents hell if there is ANY detriment to fares entitlements in London and hence come back on him.....
 
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Deerfold

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Do they not email out weekly news bulletin or do they do that buytstaff don't bother to read them? I read all internal communication at work. That's how one knows what's going on.

In some companies if you read all the internal communication, trying to find the bits that are important, you're not left with much time to do your job.

That is good to hear. What forms need to be thrown away though and are their replacement forms?

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I'm not sure what's good about a massive waste of paper.
 

infobleep

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In some companies if you read all the internal communication, trying to find the bits that are important, you're not left with much time to do your job.



I'm not sure what's good about a massive waste of paper.
I wasn't referring to the waste of paper. More the that you'd been informed.

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Quite possible on some networks. Not sure if Northern allow it.
I like the idea of it going by train as years ago, the train companies often sent stuff internally by train. I read about it in my Great Western Railway general appendix.

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