Arriva Rail North DOO

[Andrew32]

Sorry for starting another thread, my phone won't let me highlight the search option, please direct to any existing thread if required.

RMT Members today received confirmation that Arriva Rail North intended to implement DOO when new rolling stock is delivered.

A proposal to run services like Scotrail has been rejected by the transport secretary who is in control, what now for the future of guards bearing in mind what's happening down south?

 

[Domh245]

What a surprise...

Best of luck to all of the Northern Guards. Hopefully you'll have a better time of it than Southern

 

[plymothian]

I doubt they will.

The guard grade is history.

 

[ainsworth74]

This is going to be the messy one. Northern drivers will not have DOO(P) anywhere in their contracts so ASLEF will be a lot harder to block out using the courts.

 

[WatcherZero]

The Northern authorities need it implemented too. They have been granted the ability to reinvest savings in the franchises and you cant invest those savings if you don't make any.

 

[J-2739]

SHOCK

Could this be even more difficult than the situation at Southern?

 

[Carlisle]

Sorry for starting another thread, my phone won't let me highlight the search option, please direct to any existing thread if required.

RMT Members today received confirmation that Arriva Rail North intended to implement DOO when new rolling stock is delivered.

A proposal to run services like Scotrail has been rejected by the transport secretary who is in control, what now for the future of guards bearing in mind what's happening down south?

Couldn't t they do it on a voluntary basis like Southeastern did when launching the Javelins a few years ago i.e. Those drivers that wish to can earn more money doing the doors whilst those that don't can opt to stay on the guarded routes

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given that there isn't going to be a wholesale fleet replacement any time soon, I'd imagine that there will be roles for guards "up north" for years to come. There will also be lesser roles for travelling ticket sales people - can you, for example, imagine there being TVMs and PFs at Cark and Cartmel, for example? I can't.

I'd imagine any redundancies may be able to be handled by way of natural wastage.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Forgive me for being wrong, but was there not a commitment at the new franchise start that the guard role would remain on Northern?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Forgive me for being wrong, but was there not a commitment at the new franchise start that the guard role would remain on Northern?

I think the commitment was for 2 members of staff on each service- whether the second staff member is a guard or simply an RPI is the issue. I feel that decision is as likely to come down to what the stock is, as it is to any breakthrough between DfT and the unions...

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I think the commitment was for 2 members of staff on each service- whether the second staff member is a guard or simply an RPI is the issue. I feel that decision is as likely to come down to what the stock is, as it is to any breakthrough between DfT and the unions...

No, fairly certain it mentioned guards remaining - I'll see if I can look it up using the google history section

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Will TfGM have any input into matters?

 

[WatcherZero]

Only so far as they are one of the members of Transport for the North who will have co-leadership with the Dft over the franchises from around the end of next year.

 

[grumblingalong]

I think we'all all find the "Scotrail agreement" will find another home here and in many places around the country. Satisfies both sides.

 

[Carlisle]

I think we'all all find the "Scotrail agreement" will find another home here and in many places around the country. Satisfies both sides.

Not really, it offers the operator almost no additional flexibility over the current system, I think the Javelin mode of operation is much more likely to become widespread in the longer term

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Northern commitment to the DfT/Rail North was to implement DOO on x% of services by y date, at 2 points during the franchise.
The details of the x and y were redacted in the public franchise agreement.

You'd expect it to apply to new stock on selected routes, which is only a small (but increasing) percentage of Northern's operation.
The impact will therefore be gradual over time, unlike on Southern.
The routes will also have to be suitably equipped, which won't be easy in many cases.

Merseyrail has also said it will go DOO with its new stock, which is much more likely to be a fast changeover, given its limited routes and (probably, when it comes) fast rollout of new stock.
But it's all several years away, and Merseyrail hasn't even ordered its new stock yet.

 

[Domh245]

The routes will also have to be suitably equipped, which won't be easy in many cases.

Am I right in thinking that all that would require is upgraded lighting and fitment of GSM-R where not already fitted? If so, I can't imagine that there'd be much of an issue there

 

[Chester1]

Forgive me for being wrong, but was there not a commitment at the new franchise start that the guard role would remain on Northern?

I thought they promised to keep guards at their existing pay grades. Half the rolling stock will be DOO/DCO capable at the end of the franchise in 7 years time, which would enable much of it to be phased in through staff turnover. Southern is a concession similiar to Merseyrail and therefore doesn't keep ticket revanue. Northern is a franchise and Arriva will not want to lose income, I suspect the outcome will be a Scotrail compromise not a Southern fiasco.

 

[scrapy]

Given that there isn't going to be a wholesale fleet replacement any time soon, I'd imagine that there will be roles for guards "up north" for years to come. There will also be lesser roles for travelling ticket sales people - can you, for example, imagine there being TVMs and PFs at Cark and Cartmel, for example? I can't.

I'd imagine any redundancies may be able to be handled by way of natural wastage.

There is a requirement for 60% of network to have a penalty fares scheme by 2019 and 100% by 2022 excluding stations with less than 3000 passengers per year. All stations with more than 3000 passengers per year will get a TVM. Cark has over 70,000 passengers per year.

 

[8J]

This is going to be the messy one. Northern drivers will not have DOO(P) anywhere in their contracts so ASLEF will be a lot harder to block out using the courts.

Not entirely true. The ex FNW drivers don't have any mention of DOO in their contracts however the ex ATN drivers have a DOO implementation structure agreement. Although this is not them fully agreeing to it's implementation, it binds ASLEF into talks with the company over it.

 

[scrapy]

I thought they promised to keep guards at their existing pay grades. Half the rolling stock will be DOO/DCO capable at the end of the franchise in 7 years time, which would enable much of it to be phased in through staff turnover. Southern is a concession similiar to Merseyrail and therefore doesn't keep ticket revanue. Northern is a franchise and Arriva will not want to lose income, I suspect the outcome will be a Scotrail compromise not a Southern fiasco.

Don't think there has been any commitment at all other than the TUPE transfer from Serco Abellio. From what I've heard communication from Arriva to staff about their plans has been non existent other than what is publicly available.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

What myself and most of my colleagues feel is that Arriva will want the Northern Connect services to be DOO as they will mainly have brand new stock BUT like has been said there is no agreement whatsoever for DOO on the West side and very limited on the east. Also our BR era diesels will be around for a long time yet so I am not worried for the foreseeable future at least. The thing that is getting all Northern staff annoyed though is the lack of information from up above. Alex Hynes is normally very proactive on most things but not a word about DOO from him or anyone else for that matter.

 

[Robertj21a]

What myself and most of my colleagues feel is that Arriva will want the Northern Connect services to be DOO as they will mainly have brand new stock BUT like has been said there is no agreement whatsoever for DOO on the West side and very limited on the east. Also our BR era diesels will be around for a long time yet so I am not worried for the foreseeable future at least. The thing that is getting all Northern staff annoyed though is the lack of information from up above. Alex Hynes is normally very proactive on most things but not a word about DOO from him or anyone else for that matter.

On such an emotive subject, he may, of course, recognise that every word said, let alone any written down, could end up being contested in a court in future years.

 

[pemma]

RMT Members today received confirmation that Arriva Rail North intended to implement DOO when new rolling stock is delivered.

Where do I start with that statement?

Firstly, DOO was included in the Northern franchise consultation but after objections (including from shortlisted franchise bidders) DfT compromised and said DCO and all trains must have an additional member of franchise staff on board for revenue and safety purposes. The ITT made it clear DCO had to be implemented but it was up to the bidders to determine which routes to implement DCO on and what times of day DCO would be implemented. Unless the RMT have obtained the information about the proposed routes and times they've just had confirmation of something they've known about for ages.

 

[pemma]

What myself and most of my colleagues feel is that Arriva will want the Northern Connect services to be DOO as they will mainly have brand new stock BUT like has been said there is no agreement whatsoever for DOO on the West side and very limited on the east. Also our BR era diesels will be around for a long time yet so I am not worried for the foreseeable future at least. The thing that is getting all Northern staff annoyed though is the lack of information from up above. Alex Hynes is normally very proactive on most things but not a word about DOO from him or anyone else for that matter.

It's worth remembering that many extra services are being introduced. If DCO wasn't being introduced then Northern would need to employ many more guards. Before the RMT can make too much of a fuss they really need to find out what training the newly recruited staff will receive - will it everything the guard can do minus the doors duties?

 

[BestWestern]

The RMT seem to refuse to accept DOO and DCO are different. So they presumably think that asking guards to not do door duties is the same as making them redundant!

The removal of essential safety critical responsibilities is entirely for the eventual purpose of getting rid of them. This is really very, very obvious. The RSSB have issued (and then quickly hidden) documents setting out, in plain black and white, the plan for this. It's becoming tedious repeating this to the willfully naive.

 

[Don King]

And here we go again...

DOO is as popular as a Gary Glitter tour, with Rolf Harris as the support act, sponsored by Windows 8 and G4S. There is zero support for it amongst drivers, guards, ticket inspectors, catering, platform staff, local managers, passenger user groups, disability support groups and the BTP. The vast bulk of commuters are utterly opposed.

Unlike in the Southern area, there are considerable amounts of Labour MPs, and Labour, Green and UKIP councillors, not to mention Labour Mayor Andy Burnham, many of these politicians are utterly opposed to DOO, and councils including Liverpool and Sheffield have already stated opposition to DOO and ticket office cuts.

Given that the drivers do not have DOO in their contracts either, the DFT / Wilkinson and friends may find that they have bitten off far more than they can chew. No driver is going to accept responsiblity for the Platform Train Interface given the risks involved - and Chris McGhee and Martin Zee are far closer to home up here.

Indeed a quote from Northern Managing Director Alex Hynes in 2014 states ""We've got no plans to do DOO [Driver Only Operation]", Northern Rail Managing Director Alex Hynes told the influential Rail Business Intelligence magazine , pointing out that the Class 319s transferring to the route from Thameslink in the south and which are set up for DOO "will be modified for conductors to open and close doors"."

 

[pemma]

Actually I regard the safety aspect even more pertinent. Some parts of their network are very very remote.

Like I said a couple of posts back all Northern services will have a non-driving member of staff on board whether they are DCO or not. There are also plans to staff more stations and to have longer staffing hours at stations already staffed.

 

[BestWestern]

and here we go again...

Doo is as popular as a gary glitter tour, with rolf harris as the support act, sponsored by windows 8 and g4s. There is zero support for it amongst drivers, guards, ticket inspectors, catering, platform staff, local managers, passenger user groups, disability support groups and the btp. The vast bulk of commuters are utterly opposed.

Unlike in the southern area, there are considerable amounts of labour mps, and labour, green and ukip councillors, not to mention labour mayor andy burnham, many of these politicians are utterly opposed to doo, and councils including liverpool and sheffield have already stated opposition to doo and ticket office cuts.

Given that the drivers do not have doo in their contracts either, the dft / wilkinson and friends may find that they have bitten off far more than they can chew. No driver is going to accept responsiblity for the platform train interface given the risks involved - and chris mcghee and martin zee are far closer to home up here.

Indeed a quote from northern managing director alex hynes in 2014 states ""we've got no plans to do doo [driver only operation]", northern rail managing director alex hynes told the influential rail business intelligence magazine , pointing out that the class 319s transferring to the route from thameslink in the south and which are set up for doo "will be modified for conductors to open and close doors"."

The end!

 

[Dave1987]

The RMT seem to refuse to accept DOO and DCO are different. So they presumably think that asking guards to not do door duties is the same as making them redundant!

I believe the RMT are under the belief that unless their members are operationally necessary they are prime for the axe in future which we know has happened previously. That's why they accepted the ScotRail deal. The reason they weren't prepared to accept the "DOO in certain exceptional circumstances" is they have seen loopholes exploited to the max so have no trust in making any agreements that aren't water tight. It's very understandable.