Croydon Tram Crash

[43096]

Wow. That is incredible.

You do have to wonder about the stupidity of the public sometimes. I mean:
- they are more interested in taking a video than banging on the window to wake him up.
- did the person who took the video send it to TfL to investigate before the crash?
- or are they just after their 15mins of fame by sending the video to The Sun?

I think we know the answer: "The passenger who shot the video never made a formal complaint but decided to make his video public to prevent further tragedy." Hope the person videoing is happy with themselves. By not reporting it to TfL (or First/Tramlink), there was perhaps an opportunity missed to prevent last week's accident happening in the first place.

 

[Antman]

You do have to wonder about the stupidity of the public sometimes. I mean:
- they are more interested in taking a video than banging on the window to wake him up.
- did the person who took the video send it to TfL to investigate before the crash?
- or are they just after their 15mins of fame by sending the video to The Sun?

I think we know the answer: "The passenger who shot the video never made a formal complaint but decided to make his video public to prevent further tragedy." Hope the person videoing is happy with themselves. By not reporting it to TfL (or First/Tramlink), there was perhaps an opportunity missed to prevent last week's accident happening in the first place.

I must say that was my initial thought that I'd be banging on the window, not standing there filming him.
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Now the junction in Croydon could be fitted with a straight through set of tracks between the two branches, because an overspeed coming from Beckenham could also happen, and such a traditional device could be fitted. If too fast, the tram would just be sent straight ahead. I'm sure the electrics can be greatly improved 100 years later. It also means that the tram can maintain full speed up to the normal braking position for the junction.

I can see your thinking, I don't know if it would be possible as the points would have to change quickly in the event of an overspeed and trams towards Addiscombe wouldn't be allowed to proceed if a tram from Addington was approaching just in case.

 

[johntea]

The video is being reported as another driver on the same line rather than the driver of the actual incident from what I've been reading

 

[Antman]

The video is being reported as another driver on the same line rather than the driver of the actual incident from what I've been reading

Yes I don't think there is any suggestion that it is the driver involved in the accident.

 

[Robertj21a]

The video is being reported as another driver on the same line rather than the driver of the actual incident from what I've been reading

Now on BBC News website. Nothing to suggest it was the same driver - which, in some way, just makes it even worse (if it was the same driver there would have been a debate about him/health etc - now it suggests a wider problem.)

 

[the sniper]

One day this industry might accept the inconvenient truth that the extreme and variable changes in shifts they use will inevitable lead to serious and dangerous fatigue being suffered. A week of 0300 to 0500 starts one week, onto 0000 to 0200 finishes the next with one day off in-between, or 0130 finish on a Saturday into a 0330 start on Monday... Most people can't adjust to that change comfortably without being knackered, even without taking into account the intensity of diagrams in many places nowadays and factors involved in people having to accommodate a life outside of work...

For all the industry's talk about fatigue, little is done realistically to mitigate it. That'd be too inconvenient/costly.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Would there be anything like passcomm installed on a tram?

 

[455refurb]

That is quite astonishing.

The person who shot that video should be ashamed of themselves for not taking immediate action to wake the driver up, and also for sitting on the video until now.

I have some questions others more knowledgeable about the industry than I may be able to answer:
- Can a driver on heavy rail decide that they are too tired or otherwise unfit to drive at the start of a shift? If they did this would it result in disciplinary action?
- Is there a chance that the ORR might serve a prohibition notice on FirstGroup for the Tramlink as a result of this video?
Goodness knows what has been going on management wise there. What a state of affairs.
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Would there be anything like passcomm installed on a tram?

There is, certainly on the Bombardier units, but obviously I don't know if it would operate in the same way as on a train.

 

[krus_aragon]

Saw my sister today. She said she was listening to the radio this morning -BBC or London, not sure which - and they had someone discussing the interim report on the Croydon tram accident. She thinks they were official - part of the RAIB but I am not swearing to that. Anyway she says this person said the tram is actually classified as a bus as far as specifying safety precautions needed.

I listened to that interview, it was on Radio 4. The interviewee was explaining (in layman terms) that the safety equipment and stopping distances, etc. for trams are more like buses than trains, which I think is a fair summary.

 

[RobShipway]

Being someone that many years ago was a Computer Operator who did three days of 12 hours shifts, then had a day off and then did three 12 hour night shifts, I know how knackering doing those sort of hours can be on the body of anyone.

I have to say that if it was me that was the passenger taking the video, I would have been banging on the glass if the driver was asleep well before the tram went into the tunnel, so that it had slowed down before the New Aldington curve enough that the 12mph can be done.

Apologies, to those that think that I am banging on about this again but this is where speed signage well before where it is needs to be in place and a system like TPWS also needs to be place within that area so that the trams can be slowed down enough if the driver does fall asleep so that the tram can still make the corner.

The comments below from the person that took the video, I think also bear out my opinion:

“If you are in charge of 50 plus lives and you’re that exhausted it’s a dangerous thing.

“He would nod off and then jolt back up near the stops.

“It’s a downhill stretch and it felt to me like the train was going too fast.”

For those that say that the better speed signage would not help if the driver is a sleep, all I can say to that is that it would help because if any passenger's also saw the speed signage on any tram where the driver is falling a sleep, it is more likely I would suspect that a passenger would be banging on the window so that an accident does not occur.

 

[AlterEgo]

For those that say that the better speed signage would not help if the driver is a sleep, all I can say to that is that it would help because if any passenger's also saw the speed signage on any tram where the driver is falling a sleep, it is more likely I would suspect that a passenger would be banging on the window so that an accident does not occur.

You really are clutching at straws now.

 

[matt_world2004]

That is quite astonishing.

The person who shot that video should be ashamed of themselves for not taking immediate action to wake the driver up, and also for sitting on the video until now.

I have some questions others more knowledgeable about the industry than I may be able to answer:
- Can a driver on heavy rail decide that they are too tired or otherwise unfit to drive at the start of a shift? If they did this would it result in disciplinary action?
- Is there a chance that the ORR might serve a prohibition notice on FirstGroup for the Tramlink as a result of this video?
Goodness knows what has been going on management wise there. What a state of affairs.
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There is, certainly on the Bombardier units, but obviously I don't know if it would operate in the same way as on a train.

Wasnt the derailment at paddington caused by driver fatigue?

 

[Bromley boy]

That is quite astonishing.

The person who shot that video should be ashamed of themselves for not taking immediate action to wake the driver up, and also for sitting on the video until now.

I have some questions others more knowledgeable about the industry than I may be able to answer:
- Can a driver on heavy rail decide that they are too tired or otherwise unfit to drive at the start of a shift? If they did this would it result in disciplinary action?
- Is there a chance that the ORR might serve a prohibition notice on FirstGroup for the Tramlink as a result of this video?
Goodness knows what has been going on management wise there. What a state of affairs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


There is, certainly on the Bombardier units, but obviously I don't know if it would operate in the same way as on a train.

In the heavy retail context, by booking on for their shift, the driver is stating that they are free of drugs/alcohol, well rested and "otherwise fit" to perform their duty. Therefore the onus is placed on the individual driver to declare themselves fit/unfit at the start of each and every shift.

The reality of the situation is that fatigue is an inevitable part of the shift patterns, particularly with early shifts which, at my depot, can book on as early as 0415. In truth a driver who did not book on due to being tired would never book on to any early shift!

In practice drivers telling managers they are too tired to do their shift is unheard of, and doing this a regular basis would would undoubtedly result in disciplinary action and ultimately termination for lack of capability.

 

[amcluesent]

This video certainly makes you wonder how many of the trams have the CCTV mysteriously 'not working', as on the one that was crashed

 

[507 001]

One day this industry might accept the inconvenient truth that the extreme and variable changes in shifts they use will inevitable lead to serious and dangerous fatigue being suffered. A week of 0300 to 0500 starts one week, onto 0000 to 0200 finishes the next with one day off in-between, or 0130 finish on a Saturday into a 0330 start on Monday... Most people can't adjust to that change comfortably without being knackered, even without taking into account the intensity of diagrams in many places nowadays and factors involved in people having to accommodate a life outside of work...

For all the industry's talk about fatigue, little is done realistically to mitigate it. That'd be too inconvenient/costly.

If only there was a like button on this forum! I cannot possibly agree more.

Being someone that many years ago was a Computer Operator who did three days of 12 hours shifts, then had a day off and then did three 12 hour night shifts, I know how knackering doing those sort of hours can be on the body of anyone.

I have to say that if it was me that was the passenger taking the video, I would have been banging on the glass if the driver was asleep well before the tram went into the tunnel, so that it had slowed down before the New Aldington curve enough that the 12mph can be done.

Apologies, to those that think that I am banging on about this again but this is where speed signage well before where it is needs to be in place and a system like TPWS also needs to be place within that area so that the trams can be slowed down enough if the driver does fall asleep so that the tram can still make the corner.

The comments below from the person that took the video, I think also bear out my opinion:

“If you are in charge of 50 plus lives and you’re that exhausted it’s a dangerous thing.

“He would nod off and then jolt back up near the stops.

“It’s a downhill stretch and it felt to me like the train was going too fast.”

For those that say that the better speed signage would not help if the driver is a sleep, all I can say to that is that it would help because if any passenger's also saw the speed signage on any tram where the driver is falling a sleep, it is more likely I would suspect that a passenger would be banging on the window so that an accident does not occur.

You cannot be serious.

How many times do we need to say this?

IT IS NOT ABOUT SIGNAGE

WHAT GOOD IS SIGNAGE IF THE DRIVER IS ASLEEP?

What if it's dark and the passengers can't see into the cab?

A sign isn't going to suddenly make a driver who is so fatigued he can't keep his eyes open suddenly become alert and responsive.

Please just stop!

 

[RobShipway]

If only there was a like button on this forum! I cannot possibly agree more.



You cannot be serious.

How many times do we need to say this?

IT IS NOT ABOUT SIGNAGE

WHAT GOOD IS SIGNAGE IF THE DRIVER IS ASLEEP?

What if it's dark and the passengers can't see into the cab?

A sign isn't going to suddenly make a driver who is so fatigued he can't keep his eyes open suddenly become alert and responsive.

Please just stop!

I will not stop until I get a full apology from those being critical about my comments, which if you read the RAIB initial report is exactly what they have said as well.

 

[Dieseldriver]

The point at which the team should have commenced braking is in tunnel and therefore free of leaf fall.

Not necessarily. As a Train Driver, I find that most of the time there isn't a lot of difference in railhead adhesion when you enter a tunnel. In fact in some cases I have found that the train slips more upon entering one.

 

[neilb62]

Agreed, tunnels can be wet greasy and horrid and can take you by surprise especially on a dry summers day...

 

[amcluesent]

If pax hammered on the glass to wake up the driver, what are the chances they'd be met by BTP at the next stop and arrested for 'interfering' with operation of the tram?

 

[AlterEgo]

I will not stop until I get a full apology from those being critical about my comments, which if you read the RAIB initial report is exactly what they have said as well.

All the RAIB have done is say they'll look into the factors behind the crash - including signage. That's pretty standard stuff. They do that with any derailment or overspeed. It doesn't mean they believe at this stage extra signage will help.

It looks strongly like not only was the driver of the tram asleep/inattentive/unconscious, but that at least one other driver has been caught being similarly inattentive, plus at least two or three separate reports from the public of other occasions where the tram was grossly overspeed.

Please discuss the topic according to the evidence which emerges. There is no evidence or suggestion that signage would have prevented this crash, or other overspeeds in the area.
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Not necessarily. As a Train Driver, I find that most of the time there isn't a lot of difference in railhead adhesion when you enter a tunnel. In fact in some cases I have found that the train slips more upon entering one.

Tunnels are leaky things and usually lie below thirty foot or more of earth above. Thus, rain a few hours ago might mean the rails are drying off, but the same rain has taken a few hours to percolate that earth and drip from the tunnel roof.

 

[Antman]

I will not stop until I get a full apology from those being critical about my comments, which if you read the RAIB initial report is exactly what they have said as well.

I wouldn't hold your breath if I were you!

 

[507 001]

I will not stop until I get a full apology from those being critical about my comments, which if you read the RAIB initial report is exactly what they have said as well.

You really are unbelievable. If you think that an extra speedboard would have prevented this incident then you are deranged!

It is not what the RAIB have said, as has been pointed out to you many times. Yes they have mentioned it, yes they said they would look into whether it would help. However I think it's 99.999999% likely that when the full report comes out in 12 months time they say that it would not have made any difference whatsoever.

There are many, many people on this forum who know a damn site more about this subject than you do. There is a huge amount to learn about this subject than an experience day driving a heritage tram can teach you (by the way, heritage tram operations bear no resemblance to modern 'supertram' ops). You would do well to listen to them, instead of bleating on about a theory that has been considered and then debunked by all of us.

And as for demanding an apology, don't be so damned childish. There is nothing to apologise for. You are wrong. We are right. It is as simple as that.

 

[Antman]

One day this industry might accept the inconvenient truth that the extreme and variable changes in shifts they use will inevitable lead to serious and dangerous fatigue being suffered. A week of 0300 to 0500 starts one week, onto 0000 to 0200 finishes the next with one day off in-between, or 0130 finish on a Saturday into a 0330 start on Monday... Most people can't adjust to that change comfortably without being knackered, even without taking into account the intensity of diagrams in many places nowadays and factors involved in people having to accommodate a life outside of work...

For all the industry's talk about fatigue, little is done realistically to mitigate it. That'd be too inconvenient/costly.

Absolutely spot on!

As far as reasonably possible drivers should be kept on permanent early, middle of late shifts.

 

[daikilo]

If pax hammered on the glass to wake up the driver, what are the chances they'd be met by BTP at the next stop and arrested for 'interfering' with operation of the tram?

Zero, especially after showing the video to the police. Then the driver would have an issue.

That video is a perfect example of how tiredness can be dangerous when in control of a moving vehicle, including one's own car, and a shock awakening (such as banging on a window) may not be enough. I would certainly consider pressing the emergency communication button as I assume it would be overheard by the control centre.

 

[507 001]

All the RAIB have done is say they'll look into the factors behind the crash - including signage. That's pretty standard stuff. They do that with any derailment or overspeed. It doesn't mean they believe at this stage extra signage will help.

It looks strongly like not only was the driver of the tram asleep/inattentive/unconscious, but that at least one other driver has been caught being similarly inattentive, plus at least two or three separate reports from the public of other occasions where the tram was grossly overspeed.

Please discuss the topic according to the evidence which emerges. There is no evidence or suggestion that signage would have prevented this crash, or other overspeeds in the area.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Tunnels are leaky things and usually lie below thirty foot or more of earth above. Thus, rain a few hours ago might mean the rails are drying off, but the same rain has taken a few hours to percolate that earth and drip from the tunnel roof.

Indeed, the old Oldham Mumps tunnel was famous at Metrolink for being the only place you needed windscreen wipers in a heatwave!

 

[Antman]

Zero, especially after showing the video to the police. Then the driver would have an issue.

That video is a perfect example of how tiredness can be dangerous when in control of a moving vehicle, including one's own car, and a shock awakening (such as banging on a window) may not be enough. I would certainly consider pressing the emergency communication button as I assume it would be overheard by the control centre.

Easy to pull over and have a nap in a car, not quite so easy when driving a tram.

 

[jon0844]

I wonder if the person filming was told not to send the video to TfL because they'd perhaps be responsible for the driver losing his job - and people saying he should mind his own business. I seem to recall the abuse (and PMs) I got from a small number of people here when I reported a train driver using his phone when stopping at Hatfield.

I was made to feel that it was MY fault that he could get in trouble, not the action of using a mobile phone on a moving train.

Maybe now, after the tragedy, the person who filmed feels extremely guilty, almost feeling partly responsible. I am not sure why sending it to The Sun helps (as it just opens him up to more abuse from people asking why something wasn't done at the time) but I do understand the dilemma people have when having to decide what to do with the photos/video they get.

I bet people delete damning evidence all the time because they don't want the grief, even though increasingly the police ask for photos and video to help them investigate crimes and bring about prosecutions.

I'd say that the only logical move is to have CCTV in cabs, which can be randomly monitored, but there's no way on earth anyone would accept that.

 

[yorkie]

For those that say that the better speed signage would not help if the driver is a sleep, all I can say to that is that it would help because if any passenger's also saw the speed signage on any tram where the driver is falling a sleep, it is more likely I would suspect that a passenger would be banging on the window so that an accident does not occur.

This is bonkers! I refer you to AlterEgo's post #710 above.http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2781511&postcount=710

 

[rebmcr]

If the description of the driver featured in the video is accurate, specifically that he was 'coming around' when approaching stops, could it have been simply that he was fully aware and in control (thanks to his route knowledge) and simply resting his eyes?

I have often seen posts describing the nature of route knowledge that means it is safe to drive in total darkness and/or fog — if the driver was feeling slightly fatigued and took it upon himself to manage his condition on the off-street section so that he can be more attentive in central Croydon, then perhaps the video is not as damning as it first appears.

For those that say that the better speed signage would not help if the driver is a sleep, all I can say to that is that it would help because if any passenger's also saw the speed signage on any tram where the driver is falling a sleep, it is more likely I would suspect that a passenger would be banging on the window so that an accident does not occur.

"The random chance that a passenger ends up doing this" is not a reliable safety mechanism, and suggesting otherwise is quite misguided.

 

[AlterEgo]

If the description of the driver featured in the video is accurate, specifically that he was 'coming around' when approaching stops, could it have been simply that he was fully aware and in control (thanks to his route knowledge) and simply resting his eyes?

I have often seen posts describing the nature of route knowledge that means it is safe to drive in total darkness and/or fog — if the driver was feeling slightly fatigued and took it upon himself to manage his condition on the off-street section so that he can be more attentive in central Croydon, then perhaps the video is not as damning as it first appears.

Trams aren't driven on route knowledge alone, even on segregated rights of way. Even so, "resting your eyes" is a definite no-no when driving any sort of vehicle!