Class 88 UKDual & EuroDual

[furnessvale]

Here is a quote from the Rail Engineer: They will have a 4MW rating using ABB AC traction equipment plus a 950hp Caterpillar C27 diesel engine for use where there is no overhead line equipment. This provides more than so-called ‘last mile’ (i.e. shunting) capability. The Class 88 is a true ‘dual mode’ locomotive that has been designed to haul a train using diesel power alone. Indeed, the starting tractive effort is similar in electrical and diesel propulsion modes.
970 bhp in todays terms is a lot more than it used to be with older technology. It is quite likely to be as good as any type 2 diesel was in the old days, let alone the type 1s. The proof will come with the testing in service, but it already proved to be "beyond expectations" in the Velim trials by performing better than expected. Certainly the acceleration from a standing start with 1500 tons in diesel only mode was quite remarkable according to those who watched it. What matters most is the power at rail, not the output of the prime mover. The latest diesel engines are stated to be almost double the efficiency of the earlier ones and this trend in improvement is likely to continue over the next 10-15 years.

Looking forward to seeing them on DIRFT to Scotland workings.

To be fair to them, I expect they will be double headed seeing as the 86s are.

 

[apk55]

A class 88 has higher starting tractive effort than a class 86/87 and more power over the entire speed range. This means that either more load can be hauled (perhaps 20%) or higher acceleration up to speed, which also might be useful in congested areas.
I would the diesel engine mainly used for shunting or working short branches where speed does not matter. In event of a power failure apart from self rescuing they could also act as rescue locomotives.
They may also prove popular for working engineering trains as the very clean diesel might prove popular in areas of poor ventilation such as tunnels instead of the dirty class 66

 

[CosherB]

A class 88 has higher starting tractive effort than a class 86/87 and more power over the entire speed range. This means that either more load can be hauled (perhaps 20%) or higher acceleration up to speed, which also might be useful in congested areas.
I would the diesel engine mainly used for shunting or working short branches where speed does not matter. In event of a power failure apart from self rescuing they could also act as rescue locomotives.
They may also prove popular for working engineering trains as the very clean diesel might prove popular in areas of poor ventilation such as tunnels instead of the dirty class 66

'Dirty' Class 66? You mean the ones with the EU Stage IIIA-compliant engines?

 

[Sunbird24]

Looking forward to seeing them on DIRFT to Scotland workings.

To be fair to them, I expect they will be double headed seeing as the 86s are.

My understanding is that double-heading is a requirement over the west coast hill sections where a heavy freight train is expected to maintain tight timings. Those trains with slower schedules are not affected so can use a single loco.

There is not going to be a shortage of spares for 66s for many, many years. They are basically made up of EMD standard parts, of which there is no shortage, even if EMD stops supporting. Taking just one component, the 710 engine, there are literally thousands of them in use around the world - no shortage there.

The EMD 710 production has ceased already and US lines are already repowering their locomotives with Tier 4 compliant engines such as the 1010 as well as Cat engines, and it is well to remember that Cat owns EMD. Both are now pushing their new products onto the market. Even if the spare parts do not run out the cost savings achieved by users of the modern replacements will help to turn the tide against the use of older models as the rules become ever more stringent. By 2033 there may well be a requirement to modify all engines to meet new emission requirements and the cost could well be prohibitive. So perhaps the best members of the fleet will be repowered and rest will be phased out. With roads and motorways such as the A4, M4 and M6 now getting like the M25 car park there could well be a resurgence of rail freight on the horizon and the companies able to offer the best rates with their latest technology cost savings will be snapping up the contracts.

 

[hwl]

'Dirty' Class 66? You mean the ones with the EU Stage IIIA-complaint engines?

The Crossrail tunnels look quite clean despite 66 usage in them

 

[furnessvale]

My understanding is that double-heading is a requirement over the west coast hill sections where a heavy freight train is expected to maintain tight timings. Those trains with slower schedules are not affected so can use a single loco.

I have never heard of a single loco being a Bo-Bo (except possibly on an underweight train).

The main problem is the requirement for a train to be restarted from a stand on the hills in the worst adhesion conditions. With the best will in the world, a single Bo-Bo can struggle on greasy rails compared to the 2 extra axles of a Co-Co.

The double heading for tight timings is a different requirement and only applies to a handful of trains.

 

[rebmcr]

The Crossrail tunnels look quite clean despite 66 usage in them

If I recall correctly, the Crossrail 66s were fitted with scrubbers.

 

[Mollman]

It's a number allocated for a projected future electro diesel, should anyone ever get round to designing one.

Sorry, I meant 73

 

[CosherB]

You're forgetting that the IEP is unproved yet people seem to keep ordering more of them!

True, but the procurement of the Class 800s is wrapped up in politics, the discussion of which has been done to death elsewhere on here.

 

[Photohunter71]

My understanding is that double-heading is a requirement over the west coast hill sections where a heavy freight train is expected to maintain tight timings. Those trains with slower schedules are not affected so can use a single loco.



The EMD 710 production has ceased already and US lines are already repowering their locomotives with Tier 4 compliant engines such as the 1010 as well as Cat engines, and it is well to remember that Cat owns EMD. Both are now pushing their new products onto the market. Even if the spare parts do not run out the cost savings achieved by users of the modern replacements will help to turn the tide against the use of older models as the rules become ever more stringent. By 2033 there may well be a requirement to modify all engines to meet new emission requirements and the cost could well be prohibitive. So perhaps the best members of the fleet will be repowered and rest will be phased out. With roads and motorways such as the A4, M4 and M6 now getting like the M25 car park there could well be a resurgence of rail freight on the horizon and the companies able to offer the best rates with their latest technology cost savings will be snapping up the contracts.

I truly hope you're right with the rail freight piece in your reply! I'd love to see an increase in rail freight, especially since coal has gone.

 

[Mollman]

The chance for wider introduction of bi-modal locos has perhaps been missed due to Freightliner purchasing Class 70s. Although a bi-modal loco would have not been as powerful in diesel mode, it would have been perfectly adequate for Intermodal flows such as Southampton to WCML and Felixstowe - Lowley St via NLL. This would have freed up Cl66s for heavy haul work.

 

[43096]

The chance for wider introduction of bi-modal locos has perhaps been missed due to Freightliner purchasing Class 70s. Although a bi-modal loco would have not been as powerful in diesel mode, it would have been perfectly adequate for Intermodal flows such as Southampton to WCML and Felixstowe - Lowley St via NLL. This would have freed up Cl66s for heavy haul work.

So what is this mythical "bi-mode" (horrible phrase - they're electro-diesels!) of which you speak that could do what you suggest?

 

[furnessvale]

So what is this mythical "bi-mode" (horrible phrase - they're electro-diesels!) of which you speak that could do what you suggest?

It's not been designed yet, but if we can get sufficient diesel power into a Bo-Bo class 68, I see no reason why it couldn't be stretched into a Co-Co (or even a Co-Bo or Bo-Bo-Bo) to accommodate the electrical gubbins needed.

As always, I am talking freight, not fantasy ideas for high speed loco hauled passenger work. As I have posted before, I am fully aware that the market for such a loco has now evaporated with the surplus of 66s.

 

[CosherB]

It's not been designed yet, but if we can get sufficient diesel power into a Bo-Bo class 68, I see no reason why it couldn't be stretched into a Co-Co (or even a Co-Bo or Bo-Bo-Bo) to accommodate the electrical gubbins needed.

I suggest that you immediately send in your CV to Siemens, Bomdardier, Alstom, CAF, Stadler et al, you'd be amazing!

 

[43096]

It's not been designed yet, but if we can get sufficient diesel power into a Bo-Bo class 68, I see no reason why it couldn't be stretched into a Co-Co (or even a Co-Bo or Bo-Bo-Bo) to accommodate the electrical gubbins needed.



As always, I am talking freight, not fantasy ideas for high speed loco hauled passenger work. As I have posted before, I am fully aware that the market for such a loco has now evaporated with the surplus of 66s.

Why do think such a loco doesn't exist?

Perhaps you should bid for those DB 60s, or see if GBRf will let you have a 92, so you can get a prototype built. Then see how many operators are interested.

 

[furnessvale]

I suggest that you immediately send in your CV to Siemens, Bomdardier, Alstom, CAF, Stadler et al, you'd be amazing!

No need for sarcasm. All those companies have engineers perfectly capable of producing such a design which is perfectly possible.

If you bothered reading the bit you snipped you will see that IMO the reason it is not done is that the potential market has evaporated.

 

[furnessvale]

Why do think such a loco doesn't exist?

Perhaps you should bid for those DB 60s, or see if GBRf will let you have a 92, so you can get a prototype built. Then see how many operators are interested.

Again more sarcasm. This forum is full of wiseguys.

My last sentence tells you why such a loco does not exist but I will repeat, the market has evaporated.

 

[Sunbird24]

Just to correct or clarify a few points in the previous few posts:
First, the correct term is bi-mode, not bi-modal.
Second, a bi-mode (US terminology adopted by several European manufacturers) is a dual powered locomotive operating off up to four different overhead electrical systems, both AC and DC, and from a high power diesel engine.
Thirdly, an electro-diesel in UK terminology was for locomotives which had a medium power diesel engine and could also operate of the low power/restricted current DC third rail.
Finally, "not been designed yet" - Vossloh (now Stadler in Spain) has designed and built several, as have other European manufacturers, but has not come up with an acceptable design for the UK loading gauge, except for the class 88 in which the largest engine which can currently be fitted and comply with the latest emission standards gives it a lot more than last-mile capability but still a long way short of class 68 performance. The class 88 was not designed for heavy freight use but for mixed traffic, starting probably with the Daventry-Mossend service, with two locos presumably, or maybe a 68/88 combo, and charter and other work. Unlike the last-mile locos they are designed to be used in diesel only mode over long distances.

 

[43096]

Again more sarcasm. This forum is full of wiseguys.

The other way if looking at it is that this forum has some idiots on it....

 

[59CosG95]

The class 88 was not designed for heavy freight use but for mixed traffic, starting probably with the Daventry-Mossend service, with two locos presumably, or maybe a 68/88 combo, and charter and other work. Unlike the last-mile locos they are designed to be used in diesel only mode over long distances.

Judging by this, they could probably be used for CS work; assuming of course that DRS had the contract instead of GBRf.

 

[captainbigun]

Aside from the lack of suitable train heat.

88 is late, getting later, and 68s are still causing problems. I predict the 88s will be quite a headache to get running in the UK furthermore running reliably. Realistically the diesel is last mile, there's no way you'd path it over any major route with any load.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I think that the 88 is good for journeys where only the bits at one/both the ends are not electrified. robably even a short non electrified link between two electrified lines. I assume no container yards have overhead electrification !.

To give an idea of possibilities. Originally the class 71s had a flytwheel to store and release energy in yards that generally did not have third rail. I watched them pull short freight trains up a very steep bank at Rochester. The yard was at ground level and the line was on an embankment high enough to allow lorries to pass underneath. Some (ten iirc) of the 71s were adapted with a replacement diesel engine (600hp iirc)and the 73s (500hp iirc) were very similar. I think the few earlier Southern locos had a pantograph and that freight yards had OHLE (DC 750V I imagine). But before my time.

But I also think the 88 will be powerful enough on diesel to get out of trouble when a straight electric would otherwise be trapped by a failure of the power supply. I am talking about good enough to get through in an emergency. I think perhaps the biggest limit to that capability is if the 88 can move its own train on diesel but is trapped amongst stranded Pendolinos/350s !.

The 88 has enough diesel power to make a reasonable job of moving a freight train. Just because the WCML freights are long, heavy and need to accelerate well does not mean that other freights are so demanding. There is no one single definition of a freight train. So I expect the 88 can do a Bi-Mode job on some freights but not the extreme examples - except they may be double headed there.

 

[Sunbird24]

Indeed the 88 has plenty of diesel power to apply to its AC traction system, giving it a performance on a par with 1500hp machine of yesteryear. This was proved at Velim where it hauled a 1500 ton test train plus a dead ER20 loco under all kinds of conditions and performed better that expected.
The "delays" which people insist on resurfacing periodically were intentional. Long ago the build of the first 10 was put back to produce a further 10 class 68s ahead of them. Lots of people speculated with all kind of dates and even spoke of them being on ships and on the way when I could still see them in the factory! A new date of early 2017 has been talked about within the industry for some time. Apart from outward appearances this is virtually a new design with new technology and requires a lot of testing. The results of this testing have to be analysed and changes incorporated into the rest of the fleet. Also the test loco is examined back at the factory to look for any unforeseen problems which may have arisen and fixes may have to be applied to the rest of the fleet. The people who need to know, know a lot more than the speculators on this forum. Suffice it to say that they will be shipped when they are ready. The first ones will then undergo of further set of tests in real life before they are released into normal service. one of the main necessities will be to take over some of the intermodal services on the WCML to release 68s for TPE duties in 2018.

 

[43096]

Indeed the 88 has plenty of diesel power to apply to its AC traction system, giving it a performance on a par with 1500hp machine of yesteryear.

You are Stuart Baker and I claim my tenner.

How the hell does a loco with 1000hp-ish of power match the performance of a loco with 1500hp? It may well start as heavy a load but it isn't long before the lack of horsepower makes acceleration more sluggish. That is just basic physics.

 

[Peter Sarf]

You are Stuart Baker and I claim my tenner.

How the hell does a loco with 1000hp-ish of power match the performance of a loco with 1500hp? It may well start as heavy a load but it isn't long before the lack of horsepower makes acceleration more sluggish. That is just basic physics.

One 88 is obviously going to perform better than a pair of ordinary 73s and we see them running around on diesel. So what would a pair of 88s achieve - even more. The 88s are going to provide a good level of insurance, on electric lines, in case of power failure. A Bi-Mode is NEVER going to lug a big enough engine around so that it can perform like a 59 or 70 - its not supposed to.

 

[dubscottie]

You are Stuart Baker and I claim my tenner.

How the hell does a loco with 1000hp-ish of power match the performance of a loco with 1500hp? It may well start as heavy a load but it isn't long before the lack of horsepower makes acceleration more sluggish. That is just basic physics.

I am sure the electronics will look after that. Hp is not everything.

As fishermen say, it not how deep you go, its how you wiggle your worm!

 

[captainbigun]

I am sure the electronics will look after that. Hp is not everything.

As fishermen say, it not how deep you go, its how you wiggle your worm!

Que?

The inverter drive will give you more TE through the speed range compared to a DC machine however you need the HP to maintain the acceleration, at some point it'll run out of amps. And then there's the fuel, it can only carry so much.

As for the earlier comments on the delays....that's a very rose tinted view. Absolutely the people who need to know, know, but to say all is rosey and it was planned would be very generous.

 

[43096]

I am sure the electronics will look after that. Hp is not everything.

You can throw as much electronics at it as you like, Isaac Newton always wins.

 

[Sunbird24]

You can throw as much electronics at it as you like, Isaac Newton always wins.

It is all about efficiency, DC efficiency is about 45% while AC efficiency is around 90%. Nuff said!

 

[Mag_seven]

Well is the 1st 88 coming tomorrow (16th Dec) or not?