Brussels Midi/Zuid

[tivoli]

I realise the language divide in Belgium is a difficult subject but has there ever been any move to simplify the name after all neither is a translation of the other.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You could change the French to "Bruxelles Sud" (translating it the other way to Brussel Middagsstation would be a bit silly and not quite convey the same meaning), but I don't see what the benefit of doing so would be. In Germany it'd be Brussel Hbf, but SNCB/NMBS don't use the Hauptbahnhof-Konzept the same way.

 

[tivoli]

I feel Bruxelles Sud would make sense, I do know that some people have confused Midi with Central/Centraal as in Midi being in the middle of North and South.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I remember the press coverage of the start of Eurostar services, about a year in advance of services starting when all these places were largely unexplored territory for Fleet Street hacks.
Several accounts said firmly that "all the trains will arrive in Brussels at mid-day".
Somebody had mis-translated a French phrase about all the London-Brussels trains arriving at Bruxelles Midi, picked the wrong English version, and then it got passed round the agencies.
Worth a laugh at the time.
For reasons I don't understand, Brits seem to prefer to use the French terms for Belgian place names, even when they are in Flanders (eg Bruges rather than Brugge).

Actually, with my O-level French it took me a while to comprehend that Canal du Midi described a place rather than a time.
http://dictionary.reverso.net/french-english/Midi

 

[W-on-Sea]

In some contexts "midi" in French does mean "south" (not least "the south of France"), so the two names are essentially identical.

 

[Groningen]

I do not see the problem. It is a french area where Brussel Noord is considered Dutch. Just look at the streetsigns; straat, laan and weg is Dutch where rue, avenue and chaussee is French. Look at Ronse which is in Vlaanderen. Directly south of it is the language- and political border.

 

[rf_ioliver]

I realise the language divide in Belgium is a difficult subject but has there ever been any move to simplify the name after all neither is a translation of the other.

But the translation might not make sense to the opposite linguistic group. There are many examples like this, though admittedly the Bussels example is quite subtle.

In all of these cases, the names refer to the concept (a concrete (literally) concept in this case) rather then the names being translations of each other: In Flemish, the "thing" is Zuid, in French, the "thing" is Midi.

Same applies in less subtle examples, eg: Swansea/Abertawe - one name is a contraction of Swayns Sea, the other is Mouth/Estuary of the Tawe [River]. Both refer to the same thing in different ways, yet the translations are not eqivalent.

Another example is Pasila station in Helsinki, which is the Finnish name for that area of Helsinki. The Swedish name (not translation) was Frederiksberg for many years until the station was rebuilt (1980s) and the Swedish name changed to Böle: In this case Frederiksberg and Böle are two areas of Helsinki on which the station effectively sits on the border. IIRC Böle is the eastern part of the area that Finns call Pasila, and Frederiksberg the western part.

The point is that names are given by a people/society/linguistic group and idenify a concept (abstract or concrete thing) - in multilingual societies the "translations" are rarely translations but rather use of the two different terms for the same concept.

Sometimes they are translations, often they are renderings the the sounds/alphabet of one of the languages, eg: Cardiff and Caerdydd - in this latter case the differences can become quite pronouned, eg: Llundain, London vs Londinium.

t.

Ian

 

[coppercapped]

I realise the language divide in Belgium is a difficult subject but has there ever been any move to simplify the name after all neither is a translation of the other.

Oh dear - get a good Larousse!

The words are direct translations, Midi = South, Zuid = South.

(In French 'Midi' also means 'midday' - but ask yourself, in the Northern hemisphere, which direction is the sun to be seen at midday. The answer is 'in the south' hence its use in French also to mean 'south'. The 'Canal du Midi' does not mean the 'Midday Canal'.

 

[duesselmartin]

Belgium ist a bit complicated as the railways seldomly uses both languages. You wont find Liegè ob a Brugge timetable bitte Luik instead.

 

[radamfi]

Belgium ist a bit complicated as the railways seldomly uses both languages. You wont find Liegè ob a Brugge timetable bitte Luik instead.

In most of the country there is only one official language so only that language is used on trains and stations. Brussels is officially bilingual so both languages are used there. There are also a few areas near the language border which are officially bilingual.

 

[tivoli]

I am well aware of the meanings of the station name, and that these are names appropriate to the linguistic divide, but my point I suppose is that this particular station's names are no longer just relevant to the Belgians. With the arrival of Eurostar I was simply wondering if any consideration had been made to internationalise the station name. Not saying that would be right or wrong just curious.

There is a point though about dual use of names for places, in Wales as mentioned and in Ireland for example, both names are likely to be displayed on board trains. If travelling from Oostende or Brugge towards Brussels you are only going to see Brusssel Zuid displayed on board which could be confusing to the English speaker looking out for Brussels Midi.

 

[Groningen]

Dutch names of cities in the french (and sometimes German) language in Belgium:
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_Belgische_plaatsen_in_twee_talen

 

[radamfi]

I am well aware of the meanings of the station name, and that these are names appropriate to the linguistic divide, but my point I suppose is that this particular station's names are no longer just relevant to the Belgians. With the arrival of Eurostar I was simply wondering if any consideration had been made to internationalise the station name.

Internationalising the name could be done by renaming it in English. Schiphol was renamed to Schiphol Airport last year to help foreigners.

 

[tivoli]

Internationalising the name could be done by renaming it in English. Schiphol was renamed to Schiphol Airport last year to help foreigners.

Actually timetables on both NMBS and SNCB pages on Belgian Rail website both refer to Brussels Airport-Zaventem, no attempt by either to use local names for Brussels or airport.

 

[coppercapped]

I am well aware of the meanings of the station name, and that these are names appropriate to the linguistic divide, but my point I suppose is that this particular station's names are no longer just relevant to the Belgians. With the arrival of Eurostar I was simply wondering if any consideration had been made to internationalise the station name. Not saying that would be right or wrong just curious.

There is a point though about dual use of names for places, in Wales as mentioned and in Ireland for example, both names are likely to be displayed on board trains. If travelling from Oostende or Brugge towards Brussels you are only going to see Brusssel Zuid displayed on board which could be confusing to the English speaker looking out for Brussels Midi.

Could have fooled me! You wrote

after all neither is a translation of the other.

As trains from Germany also call at Brussel - Zuid, maybe it should have a German name as well, how about Brüssel - Sud?

Not only English speakers may be confused in Belgium. The Flemish word for 'Lille' is 'Rijsel' - which appears on older road signs in Wallonia by itself. In the older Michelin maps you couldn't find a 'Rijsel' anywhere. Aachen can also be called Aken or Aix-la-Chapelle. Liège can also be Luik.

Signs use the language of the area where they are put up. It's not difficult to understand. That's why all the name boards between Oostende and Brussel are in Dutch as all of the route is in Vlaanderen. It happens in other countries: Germans call the city we know as Milan as Mailand and the Italians call it Milano. People with many different first languages cope.

These days, French published maps now have 'Rijsel' in small print against 'Lille' and Belgium is a bit more international with newer road signs now saying Rijsel/Lille in Vlaanderen or Lille/Rijsel in Wallonie.

Be flexible - enjoy the variety!

 

[Bookd]

And one when I was staying in Luik / Liege I drive into the German speaking part of Belgium and found to get back I had to follow the signs to, I believe, Luttich. Very confusing but an interesting country!

 

[coppercapped]

And one when I was staying in Luik / Liege I drive into the German speaking part of Belgium and found to get back I had to follow the signs to, I believe, Luttich. Very confusing but an interesting country!

Yup! The German name for Liège / Luik is Lüttich - it's signed as that on the German Autobahnen from east of Aachen (or Aken / Aix-la-Chapelle).

 

[Groningen]

Nederlands = Dutch
Frans = French
Duits = German
Tweetalig = Dual language

In area 16 there have been fights 30 to 40 years ago that can be compared with the IRA fighting the Brits. No killings! Here more on that. > https://discoveringbelgium.com/2016/05/14/voeren-peaceful-area-stormy-history/

 

[Quakkerillo]

Belgians never really used "Midi" for South, so that's not the reason why the station is called Bruxelles-Midi in French.

However, the station was the starting point of many trains going to Southern France, an area which is known as "Le Midi", which is what the station is named after. And because in Dutch it is "Zuid-Frankrijk", the Dutch name became Brussel-Zuid.

Same way as Bruxelles-Luxembourg/Brussel-Luxemburg is where trains to/from Luxembourg left from.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah, so it's in a way a bit more like Wigan North Western, which lies to the south-east of the town centre - it's not named for its location in the town but for what or where it serves. Thanks.

 

[317666]

One I find interesting is that Mons in Wallonia is called Bergen in Flemish - in English it would be called Mountains!

 

[paddington]

Belgians never really used "Midi" for South, so that's not the reason why the station is called Bruxelles-Midi in French.

However, the station was the starting point of many trains going to Southern France, an area which is known as "Le Midi", which is what the station is named after. And because in Dutch it is "Zuid-Frankrijk", the Dutch name became Brussel-Zuid.

Ah, so it's in a way a bit more like Wigan North Western, which lies to the south-east of the town centre - it's not named for its location in the town but for what or where it serves. Thanks.

According to the French wikipedia, the above explanation is wrong. It was the terminus for the "South Railway" which initially went to Mons/Bergen and then later to the French border and beyond; the platforms extended into the "avenue du Midi" and the station became known as "Midi station".

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gare_de_Bruxelles-Midi

La ligne de chemin de fer du Midi, destinée tout d’abord à relier Bruxelles à Mons puis, par la suite, à la frontière française et au-delà, a été créée en 1839. ..... Les voies pénétraient en ville par la large avenue du Midi, devenue aujourd’hui l’avenue de Stalingrad. La gare des Bogards prendra très vite le nom de « gare du Midi ».

The proper English translation of "Bruxelles-Midi" would be "Brussels-Meridional".

One may be more familiar with "oriental" and "occidental", the equivalents for east and west, and to save people from having to look it up, the word for north is septentrional.


If I were in charge of Eurostar I would just have called it "Brussels South station" in all English announcements and printed matters. I would also put up English signs on the Eurostar platforms.


The first time I went to Belgium, I was also very confused by the name since I thought Midi was just an affected way of saying central, as I couldn't understand why anyone would call a station "noon". Furthermore, the spelling "Zuid" does not look like "South", and only later when I went to the Netherlands did I realise that zuid in Dutch actually sounds like the English pronunciation of south which led me to understand the French name of Midi.

 

[W-on-Sea]

No map of Belgium is complete that doesn't stretch to Baarle-Hertog (granted, and being located about 12 km north of the main Belgian-Dutch border, Dutch is the sole language), but it is chopped up into lots of little parcels, some of which are Belgium, some of which are the Netherlands. Possibly the greatest geographic peculiarity of the country!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baarle-Hertog

I don't understand why more of the signs are not bilingual across the entire country, though. Dutch and French are sufficiently different from one another for the corresponding forms of town names, etc, not to be obvious. It's odd, for example, to be travelling on a train that will be announced as going to either Courtrai or Kortrijk depending on where you get on it.

 

[duesselmartin]

announcements in trains also often just use the "local" language, so when a train travels from Liegè to Leuven, announcements change from French to Flemish and in Brussels both are used. Once the trains leaves Brussels for Gent, its Flemish only again.

 

[Groningen]

The border between Baarle Nassau and Baarle Hertog finally came to rest in 1995.

In France there are towns with Dutch names. Most famous is of course Lille with is Rijssel and Dunkerque which is Duinkerken/Duinkerke and apparently Dunkirk in English.

 

[gysev]

Same way as Bruxelles-Luxembourg/Brussel-Luxemburg is where trains to/from Luxembourg left from.

That is not correct. The station was called 'Bruxelles-Luxembourg' because this line was build by a private company, La Grande Compagnie du Luxembourg (GCL). After nationalisation of this company, the name changed to Bruxelles-Quartier-Leopold (Leopoldswijk) but in 2000, the station got it's original name back.

As for 'Brussels-South', Midi is indeed another French word for 'south'. However, the name has nothing to do with the line towards the south (and France) because the original station for this line was situated somewhere else and had another name: 'Gare de Bogaerden' near the present Place Rouppe.

 

[EAD]

While I understand people may find the use of the relevant local language name confusing, that is a fact of the multilateral form of federalism Belgium has. Unlike other multilingual countries where it is a federal matter with the other main language(s) appearing out of region, this is not how Belgium functions. Indeed each region issues its information in its language and there have been battles over that where there are those trying to get information in another language. Of course the German speaking territory around Eupen is a quirk of history and technically I believe part of Wallonia for regional government purposes.

As others have noted that means you get signs and announcements in the language of the region in question. Brussels is essentially the exception as the capital region meaning it is bilingual (although in reality on the ground most of the region is Francophone). I always felt sorry for foreigners when a train pulled away from Brussels given that the train reflects the linguistic boundaries as well.

Looking at the original question, I really don't see how it is confusing or that Midi needs renamed. As others have pointed out there are many shared names across languages e.g. Monaco/München/Munich or Valence/Valencia and we do the same with our anglicised versions of place names.

I always remember the name changes from my young childhood crossing Belgium on the way to/from Germany and beyond - it was and is a characteristic of the Kingdom .

 

[Senex]

Ah, so it's in a way a bit more like Wigan North Western, which lies to the south-east of the town centre - it's not named for its location in the town but for what or where it serves. Thanks.

Or after its origin al owners, the London & North Western Railway?

 

[Groningen]

About Brussel-Luxemburg (Wikipedia):
The station was built between 1854 and 1855 by the Grande Compagnie de Luxembourg as part of the Brussels-Luxembourg railway line it was constructing. The station was built to service the new Leopold Quarter, hence its original name of Leopold Quarter station. The lead architect was Gustave Saintenoy. He designed it in a neo-classical style in keeping with the other buildings around Place de Luxembourg which were designed around the same time. The station was Brussels' third, after those built in the Allée Verte and Rue des Bogards (which would eventually become Gare du Nord and Gare du Midi). Unlike those two however, Quartier Leopold station was designed as an intermediate stop rather than a terminal.

 

[Quakkerillo]

According to the French wikipedia, the above explanation is wrong. It was the terminus for the "South Railway" which initially went to Mons/Bergen and then later to the French border and beyond; the platforms extended into the "avenue du Midi" and the station became known as "Midi station".




The proper English translation of "Bruxelles-Midi" would be "Brussels-Meridional".

One may be more familiar with "oriental" and "occidental", the equivalents for east and west, and to save people from having to look it up, the word for north is septentrional.


If I were in charge of Eurostar I would just have called it "Brussels South station" in all English announcements and printed matters. I would also put up English signs on the Eurostar platforms.


The first time I went to Belgium, I was also very confused by the name since I thought Midi was just an affected way of saying central, as I couldn't understand why anyone would call a station "noon". Furthermore, the spelling "Zuid" does not look like "South", and only later when I went to the Netherlands did I realise that zuid in Dutch actually sounds like the English pronunciation of south which led me to understand the French name of Midi.

The name which is used on international trains is "Brussels South-Midi". And I can see what wikipedia says for the history, but the Dutch-language Brussels Newspaper Bruzz (or Brussel Deze week as it was called before) did a whole article about it earlier this year, where they said it was named after Le Midi, after talking with (railway) historians.