First Group: General Discussion

[overthewater]

Unless you happen to be one of those loosing you job!!

How do you come to that?

Plenty of capacity at Bolton, Queens Rd and Oldham to accommodate the fleets.

What about the drivers? Cleaner? mechanical staff which there always needing? I doubt there will be any job losses, if the above is the case. :roll:

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

How do you come to that?



What about the drivers? Cleaner? mechanical staff which there always needing? I doubt there will be any job losses, if the above is the case. :roll:

Bury has been mooted for some time because of the redevelopment of the town centre and that it is (like Rotherham) a large covered ex PTE site that doubtless has a high utilities and rates bill. The ex Pennine depot has been on a limb and is relatively small and has also been rumoured.

However, "no big deal" aspect shows a lack of something? There will be likely job losses both in back office and as some services just won't stand the light mileage. Also, many drivers will also live locally. Some may walk to work or don't fancy driving further afield (esp. if you live on the Rochdale side of Bury)

 

[overthewater]

I can never get it right.

Of course if first pulls out Rosco will be eyeing up Bury.

 

[Blackpudding]

How do you come to that?

By reading this article


http://www.burytimes.co.uk/news/149..._threat_as_bus_depot_closure_plans_announced/

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I can never get it right.

Just think...

...if it were your livelihood
...if it were your business

As for Rosco (?), I don't know who/what you mean. However, I suspect if there's opportunities and covetous eyes, Tameside may be a more interesting watch

 

[radamfi]

As for Rosco (?), I don't know who/what you mean. However, I suspect if there's opportunities and covetous eyes, Tameside may be a more interesting watch

He presumably means "Rosso", what Rossendale Transport call themselves these days.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

He presumably means "Rosso", what Rossendale Transport call themselves these days.

Ah! That makes more sense. I was struggling to find a Dukes of Hazzard connection

Tbf, there might be the odd opportunity for them in the M66 netherworld.

 

[Robertj21a]

If ROSSO could pick up a bit of profitable work it might also keep the wolf from their door for a bit longer.

 

[ivanhoe]

If ROSSO could pick up a bit of profitable work it might also keep the wolf from their door for a bit longer.

Who's rumoured to be the wolf at their door? Or is Rosso short of cash for further development?

 

[Bungle965]

Who's rumoured to be the wolf at their door? Or is Rosso short of cash for further development?

I don't believe that they can be that stretched for cash, they have just forked out for a fleet of new Wright Streetlights branded up for their 467/8 services.
The first new buses I can remember Rosso buying in a long time.
Sam

 

[Robertj21a]

Who's rumoured to be the wolf at their door? Or is Rosso short of cash for further development?

Nobody specifically, as far as I know. It just seems to be a more borderline case than many - so additional, profitable, work would always be a benefit for them.

 

[cactustwirly]

I don't believe that they can be that stretched for cash, they have just forked out for a fleet of new Wright Streetlights branded up for their 467/8 services.
The first new buses I can remember Rosso buying in a long time.
Sam

Are you sure they're not leased?

 

[Bungle965]

Are you sure they're not leased?

I thought that they were bought outright, however I will endeavour to find out.
San

 

[swifty]

First West Yorkshire pledges £71 million for 284 ultra low emission vehicles to be on the road by 2020 in Leeds.

A fleet of 284 low-emission buses is to be introduced by one of Leeds' largest bus operators by the end of 2020.
Operator First West Yorkshire has pledged £71m to provide the low or zero-emissions vehicles, Leeds City Council said.
This is hoped to improve air quality in the city by reducing nitrogen oxides and dioxides emissions by 87%, it said.
It follows an announcement on Monday of three new railway stations in the city.
For more on this and other West Yorkshire stories
About 250,000 daily bus trips are made in the city and the aim is to double passenger numbers within 10 years, said the council.
About one in three of households in the city are without a car, according to council figures.
The council also announced improvements at Leeds Bus Station and a continued expansion of the existing Elland Road park and ride service.
A new park and ride site at Stourton and a further one in north Leeds was also announced.
A planned 1,000-space park and ride at Temple Green in east Leeds near Junction 45 of the M1 is now due to open next year.
The Leeds Transport Strategy is to see a total of £270m of improvements made to public transport, according to Leeds City Council.
These proposals are to be considered by senior councillors on 14 December and if approved will then go to the Department of Transport for its consideration.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-38219347

 

[winston270twm]

First West Yorkshire pledges £71 million for 284 ultra low emission vehicles to be on the road by 2020 in Leeds.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-38219347

That's still only 71 new buses per year over the 4 years. Its just packaged up to look like a more impressive order. If all the new stuff is going to Leeds, the rest of FWY will get Leeds cast offs during the same period

 

[Robertj21a]

That's still only 71 new buses per year over the 4 years. Its just packaged up to look like a more impressive order. If all the new stuff is going to Leeds, the rest of FWY will get Leeds cast offs during the same period

I think that may be a little unfair. It does say *by* 2020 so it's possibly more like, say, 90 each year. To my mind, that's pretty good for just one part of First.

 

[winston270twm]

I think that may be a little unfair. It does say *by* 2020 so it's possibly more like, say, 90 each year. To my mind, that's pretty good for just one part of First.

The article says 'by the end of 2020' ie 4 years from now. No doubt the zero emission buses of the 284 will also be dependant on FWY winning funding.

The problem is, I doubt the group orders for those years will be increased significantly enough to compensate for that many buses all going to one city, therefore, other subusidiares will no doubt receive fewer new buses as a result, this was a problem in the blockhead era with large quantities of new buses going in to a handful of cities.

 

[Robertj21a]

The article says 'by the end of 2020' ie 4 years from now. No doubt the zero emission buses of the 284 will also be dependant on FWY winning funding.

The problem is, I doubt the group orders for those years will be increased significantly enought to compensate for that many buses all going to one city, therefore, other subusidiares will no doubt receive fewer new buses as a result, this was a problem in the blockhead era with large quantities of new buses going in to a handful of cities.

Fair enough. I'm sure nobody wants a return to anything like the Blockhead era but it's also becoming quite evident that First is only making significant profits in a few areas - West Yorkshire is certainly one. There's little point in putting this much new kit into places that are barely profitable unless there is some clear evidence that matters are improving [e.g First Kernow], so other parts of the empire will, inevitably, get the hand-me-downs.

It's interesting that they've announced this new bus order just hours after announcing the closure of 2 garages at a nearby operation that's barely profitable. There will be some keen eyes now watching out for places like South Yorkshire, Eastern Counties, Potteries ec.

 

[winston270twm]

Fair enough. I'm sure nobody wants a return to anything like the Blockhead era but it's also becoming quite evident that First is only making significant profits in a few areas - West Yorkshire is certainly one. There's little point in putting this much new kit into places that are barely profitable unless there is some clear evidence that matters are improving [e.g First Kernow], so other parts of the empire will, inevitably, get the hand-me-downs.

It's interesting that they've announced this new bus order just hours after announcing the closure of 2 garages at a nearby operation that's barely profitable. There will be some keen eyes now watching out for places like South Yorkshire, Eastern Counties, Potteries ec.

But are you realisitcally going to extract that much extra profit from your most profitable operations by putting 71 new buses a year over 4 years? Wouldn't you better spreading the new investment around all parts of the group & target it at growing revenue & increasing financial performance at the poorer performing subsidiaries?

You only have to look at how much better Plymouth, Chester & Wirral & Wigan appear to be doing under Stagecoach, all with having received new fleet investment.

If anything, putting that klind of new investment in to Manchester along with cutting garage overheads may have made the biggest impact of group profits. An operation the size of Manchester should really be contributing a profit margin of 10%+ i.e. £9-10 million to group

 

[smtglasgow]

Surely a big part of the equation would be moving nearly new stock to lesser performing opcos (I’m thinking 12 plate gemini and 14 plate enviros)? Other parts of Yorkshire might have first call, but this could be a way to get better quality vehicles to the Midlands or Eastern Counties. Something similar happened in 2015 when Glasgow got 70ish new vehicles. Seems quite sensible to me.

 

[Robertj21a]

But are you realisitcally going to extract that much extra profit from your most profitable operations by putting 71 new buses a year over 4 years? Wouldn't you better spreading the new investment around all parts of the group & target it at growing revenue & increasing financial performance at the poorer performing subsidiaries?

You only have to look at how much better Plymouth, Chester & Wirral & Wigan appear to be doing under Stagecoach, all with having received new fleet investment.

If anything, putting that klind of new investment in to Manchester along with cutting garage overheads may have made the biggest impact of group profits. An operation the size of Manchester should really be contributing a profit margin of 10%+ i.e. £9-10 million to group

I wouldn't look upon it as obtaining extra profit, I'd be trying hard to ensure that I maintain the profits in the few areas that are already achieving it. It's probably a very interesting discussion to have as to whether Plymouth, Chester, Wigan etc are doing so much better now they have new vehicles or whether they are doing so much better now that they have new management......

 

[winston270twm]

I wouldn't look upon it as obtaining extra profit, I'd be trying hard to ensure that I maintain the profits in the few areas that are already achieving it. It's probably a very interesting discussion to have as to whether Plymouth, Chester, Wigan etc are doing so much better now they have new vehicles or whether they are doing so much better now that they have new management......

But FWY is already working well & generating good profits, if UK bus is ever to get back on track at the majority of subsidiaries, it's the likes of Manchester, South Yorskhire & Glasgow that need the attention. Closing depots at Manchester will obviosuly strip out costs eventually, but at the same time, the fleet would benefit from sustained new fleet investment to drive growth & help turn their performance around quicker.

Fair point on the change of management at the former First subsidiaries, but the new management has also brought in new fleet investmest & developed new routes (Plymouth - Falcon)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I wouldn't look upon it as obtaining extra profit, I'd be trying hard to ensure that I maintain the profits in the few areas that are already achieving it. It's probably a very interesting discussion to have as to whether Plymouth, Chester, Wigan etc are doing so much better now they have new vehicles or whether they are doing so much better now that they have new management......

There are a few things to consider

We don't actually know how well these places are trading. Clearly, places like Wigan were massively overdue fleet replacement with R reg Excels and P reg Darts pootling around the place.

Also, in the case of Plymouth, there was the ridiculous Ugobus incursion and the subsequent sell up to Go Ahead of PCB. The fall out was bad enough but then Go Ahead turned the tables and began all out war with a mortally weakened First. With Stagecoach going in there, and peace immediately being declared, it was going to allow fleet replacement.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surely a big part of the equation would be moving nearly new stock to lesser performing opcos (I’m thinking 12 plate gemini and 14 plate enviros)? Other parts of Yorkshire might have first call, but this could be a way to get better quality vehicles to the Midlands or Eastern Counties. Something similar happened in 2015 when Glasgow got 70ish new vehicles. Seems quite sensible to me.

That's already happened with First Eastern Counties getting a number of ex Leeds 12 plate Geminis. To a lesser extent, Essex did get a number of e400s from Leicester as Trident replacements, displaced by new Streetdecks.

I think in terms of Potteries, they're trying to strike the balance between putting in new fleet (but being crippled by the depreciation cost) and not trying to gently upgrade the rest of the fleet (ALX B7TLs being replaced by newer B7 Geminis).

 

[noddingdonkey]

This sounds like it's the council pulling the strings rather than a First initiative - they have £173m from DfT burning a hole in their pocket after the trolleybus scheme was canned.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-36275817

I guess we might see some slightly less geriatric vehicles replacing the previous crap Leeds kindly donated to Huddersfield and Halifax (W and X reg ALX400s, filthy, leaky and falling to bits)

 

[winston270twm]

This sounds like it's the council pulling the strings rather than a First initiative - they have £173m from DfT burning a hole in their pocket after the trolleybus scheme was canned.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-36275817

I guess we might see some slightly less geriatric vehicles replacing the previous crap Leeds kindly donated to Huddersfield and Halifax (W and X reg ALX400s, filthy, leaky and falling to bits)

It depends, the aim of the scheme is to double passenger numbers with 10 years & have all core corridors / routes on 10 min frequencies. Therefore increasing the Leeds Pvr over current requirements. If the above is achieved, there may not be as many newer buses to cascade out as people are expecting.

http://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2016/06-12-16b.aspx

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Not First Group but Go Ahead who have made their half year results available. Interestingly, GAG recorded increased revenue and traffic (1% and 0.5%) but that it would have been twice that had it not been for the North East.

Those former powerhouses of the North are no longer as strong - again, I suspect it's the local economy tanking that has done it and explains (though only in part) some of the challenges First are having with their Scottish and Northern England ops

 

[NorthernSpirit]

That's still only 71 new buses per year over the 4 years. Its just packaged up to look like a more impressive order. If all the new stuff is going to Leeds, the rest of FWY will get Leeds cast offs during the same period

Well the X63 branded fleet feels as if the Geminis were originally used on the 72's during the "blue circle Connecting the region" era before being transfered to Huddersfield. Meanwhile Halifax has its knackered ALX 400's and other crap that are being used on the 571, 560, 548 and 549, although I do have to say that the upgrade for the residents of the Holme Valley looks promising with its Holme Valley Connection branding, the routes to Holmfirth normally had whatever rejects they had spare it seems normally (as mentioned) ALX 400's and Royales.

 

[overthewater]

Has anyone seen the accounts for certain companies in UKBus? Of course the most interesting would be GMN, BoS and of course potties.

 

[Volvodart]

It takes several days for accounts to appear online after they have been lodged with Companies House for a normal month where there have been NO bank holidays, so nothing will appear until probably well into next week. Most of the companies registered in England are now showing the accounts will be available online 5 days from today, although most are now live already. Of those lodged, the surprise is the ones doing worse in the 2015/6 financial year that are not the usual suspects.

 

[overthewater]

At least the accounts for First Manchester have appeared

FIRST POTTERIES

Im sure this is Buses of Somerset: