Preston/Lancaster pricing shenanigans

[najaB]

If that was true, this thread would never have happened. For a number of reasons, most people will buy a ticket between their origin and destination, however much the alternatives cost.

Okay, not literally everyone but you can imagine what would happen when it gets out - via social media more than likely - that you can save *LOADS* of money without having to faff about with split tickets or restricting yourself to specified trains.

 

[island]

You can BOJ on the return leg, of course.

 

[najaB]

You can BOJ on the return leg, of course.

There is, of course, a scam* which has to do with how the tickets are printed.

*Edit: Or loophole, depending on how you choose to view it.

 

[janb]

Okay, not literally everyone but you can imagine what would happen when it gets out - via social media more than likely - that you can save *LOADS* of money without having to faff about with split tickets or restricting yourself to specified trains.

Indeed there was a period of a few months several years ago (post fares simplification?) where there was no BoJ restriction on the Lancaster SVR and they were quick to put it back in and on the Lancaster - Birmingham ticket where the same situation arises such were the number of people that had clocked it. And there is a reason why revenue have been known to take an interest in the 0758/0858 departures from Preston.

 

[Elecman]

The Preston pricing is a throw back to the Intercity days when the then Director Intercity ( who hailed from the Northwest ) knew from passenger/ticketing data that Preston was far busier than North there of so had the premium pricing point set as Preston. So it certainly predates Virgin by a good 10+ years.
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Indeed there was a period of a few months several years ago (post fares simplification?) where there was no BoJ restriction on the Lancaster SVR and they were quick to put it back in and on the Lancaster - Birmingham ticket where the same situation arises such were the number of people that had clocked it. And there is a reason why revenue have been known to take an interest in the 0758/0858 departures from Preston.

Virgin staff man the Platform 3/4 and 5/6 enterance from the footbridge and subways specifically for these train times every day now for the prevention of this very wheeze of Preston passengers trying to get these trains holding Tickets from Lancaster

 

[miami]

The Preston pricing is a throw back to the Intercity days when the then Director Intercity ( who hailed from the Northwest ) knew from passenger/ticketing data that Preston was far busier than North there of so had the premium pricing point set as Preston. So it certainly predates Virgin by a good 10+ years.
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Virgin staff man the Platform 3/4 and 5/6 enterance from the footbridge and subways specifically for these train times every day now for the prevention of this very wheeze of Preston passengers trying to get these trains holding Tickets from Lancaster

As long as they allow those on the return half of SVRs to board that's fine.

I'm not sure why the rail industry and their apologists make such a big deal of this, after all

on long distance trips, open single or return fares - used in the examples above - account for 2% of journeys.

(from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6442947.stm, which also says how A first class open return from London Euston to Manchester is £337 for 185 miles each way. But a first open return to Falkirk - yes, in Scotland - is £320.)

 

[kieron]

Okay, not literally everyone but you can imagine what would happen when it gets out - via social media more than likely - that you can save *LOADS* of money without having to faff about with split tickets or restricting yourself to specified trains.

There are a lot of tickets around the country for which starting/finishing short on one ticket is cheaper than buying a ticket between the stations you actually use, and where this is valid. They don't make a big difference to railway revenue, and so they aren't changed.

If Virgin weren't allowed to restrict break of journey on London-Lancaster off peak returns, they would simply find other ways to protect their revenue.

 

[BigCj34]

I wouldn't give up your day job to become a professional fare dodger if I were you. There are so many holes in that plan I wouldn't know where to start.

What are the holes you speak of with regards to stopping short but buying a ticket from Lostock Hall to Preston? Unless you're physically caught getting off the train or picked up on CCTV, what else could go wrong? I wouldn't do it of course, the more sensible and legal option would be to split or just double back from Lancaster.

While split ticketing is something that does benefit passengers in our hybrid airline/distance pricing/selectively regulated ticket pricing, cheaper fares for longer journeys is the downside.

 

[yorkie]

No. In the example under discussion, the peak fare from London to Lancaster should be the sum of the peak fare from London to Preston and the off-peak fare from Preston to Lancaster. There would then be no advantage from split-ticketing.

And how is the London to Preston fare calculated? Is that the sum of the Euston to South Hampstead fare, plus the South Hampstead to....(you get the idea)

You've only posted one tiny piece of the jigsaw. I'd suggest a new thread for your quite radical proposal and a detailed breakdown of how it would actually work.

Mischief-making maybe, but I feel the whole situation is akin to going to a restaurant, ordering a set three-course meal, leaving before dessert, and being charged more for eating less.

It's more like being told the 3-course set menu of prawns, steak, and ice cream is £20, but you don't want the dessert.

However the prawns and steak you want, separately, cost a total of £25, so you have to order the set menu and waste the dessert.

Very much so!

Some people will disagree; but I can agree to disagree with them

I did precisely that with Dominos Pizza last week. Potato wedges and garlic bread went in the bin (no actual use to me because they aren't gluten free), and them doing so saved me about £7 over just ordering the two pizzas.

You fraudster! By admitting you had no intention of eating the products, you are depriving the pizza company of revenue to which they are clearly entitled. You failed to pay the appropriate price for the food which you consumed. You in fact bought a completely different product to the one you consumed. The fact that the product you bought happened to contain a couple of pizzas is merely a coincidence.
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1. Go for a very simple pricing system like a kilometric one and accept that there will be some hefty increases as a result, as well as some heavy overcrowding.

I share your concerns but if anyone actually suggests a kilometric system would work, I suggest they can start by answering these questions!

2. Go reservations-compulsory and price each train in an airline-like manner, with splitting effectively mandatory - then you don't have to worry about how the fares are structured, just what price you are told on booking. Though this would not necessarily solve the Lancaster issue.

Only possible if we get a high speed network duplicating existing services. Not gonna happen any time soon!
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Repeating the same point does not make London to Preston a divisible subsection of a London to Lancaster journey, any more than you can buy a 2-litre bottle of Coke in the supermarket (London to Lancaster SVS) and walk out with five cans (London to Preston journey). You can on the other hand buy a 6-pack of cans (London to Lancaster SOS) but it's going to cost more if you want to choose that option.

Wrong analogy; you physically can alight at Preston when undertaking a London to Lancaster journey but you physically can't walk out with cans if you buy bottles. A station call is effectively a divider between one can/bottle and another, as it is an opportunity to alight. If we are going to have analogies, they need to be right.

So the analogy would be that a 2-litre bottle costs a lot more than a deal containing a 2-litre bottle and a can, but you must consume it all without a 'break of drink'. You then chuck away the can, which is a breach of the conditions of sale. You are then guilty of breaching the conditions of sale, but there is nothing the shop owner can actually do if you've then left the premises. If a shop had such a condition of sale, I would not disagree that a customer who chucks away the can broke it, but you can't deny the fact that they physically can do so.
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What are the holes you speak of with regards to stopping short but buying a ticket from Lostock Hall to Preston? Unless you're physically caught getting off the train...

Unless a Season or Rover/Ranger etc is part of the equation, the train would need to call at Lostock Hall. If you are seen alighting from a train that has not called there and/or no train has recently arrived from that station, then if you are unable to present a valid combination, you are going to have problems. Not recommended.

I'll maintain my position that a Lancashire Day Ranger used in conjunction with a Lancaster ticket would be valid though. As would the return portion of a return ticket, of course.

 

[daodao]

And how is the London to Preston fare calculated? Is that the sum of the Euston to South Hampstead fare, plus the South Hampstead to....(you get the idea)

You've only posted one tiny piece of the jigsaw. I'd suggest a new thread for your quite radical proposal and a detailed breakdown of how it would actually work.

There would be a rate per mile for each significant segment of route, e.g. for the route under discussion the segments could be London-Watford Junction, Watford Junction-Rugby, Rugby-Crewe, Crewe-Preston, Preston-Carlisle, Carlisle-Carstairs, Carstairs-Glasgow. For lines where there is significant peak demand, generally around major cities, there would be separate rates for peak and off-peak travel, e.g. London-Watford Junction-Rugby and Carstairs-Glasgow for this route.

I am not a railway professional so don't have the knowledge to take this suggestion further, but feel that this would be the basis for a logical fare structure for walk on fares, taking into account peak demand. Pre-booked advance fares, which are an attempt to fill unused seats "airline style", will always create fare anomalies.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If Virgin weren't allowed to restrict break of journey on London-Lancaster off peak returns, they would simply find other ways to protect their revenue.

And if they were allowed to restrict it in both directions, they'd do that, too.
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What are the holes you speak of with regards to stopping short but buying a ticket from Lostock Hall to Preston? Unless you're physically caught getting off the train or picked up on CCTV, what else could go wrong? I wouldn't do it of course, the more sensible and legal option would be to split or just double back from Lancaster.

The legit option is to double back from Lancaster - you have then taken two perfectly valid separate journeys, and have experienced the slight inconvenience in order to save money, so I doubt VT would complain either, as what they've done is got what you were willing to pay for your journey as well as what some people on expenses were willing to pay for theirs - it's a perfect piece of price differentiation, as nobody on expenses is in a million years going to do that doubleback to save money.

In my view the splitting option you describe using another ticket from the south is not permitted, though others' views may (and do) vary[1] on the matter. To me if it was caught that would be a clear RoRA prosecution - the purchase of the "dumbbelled" (sort-of) split ticket shows clear intent to evade the fare. And you definitely wouldn't get away with Lostock Hall as they know it doesn't originate or stop there, in any case (Preston does not have general barriers, these revenue checks are done on that specific platform).

[1] The issue is to whether "leaving a ticket" to move onto another is BoJ or not. I would say that if actually leaving the train early is BoJ, then so is doing that - I think others differ. But as, unless you have a season ticket as one or more of the split parts, a ticket from Lostock Hall has no validity at all in this scenario, that isn't even relevant - that issue is only relevant were it a ticket from Wigan (say).

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Virgin staff man the Platform 3/4 and 5/6 enterance from the footbridge and subways specifically for these train times every day now for the prevention of this very wheeze of Preston passengers trying to get these trains holding Tickets from Lancaster

Out of curiosity: There have actually been times when I have arrived at Preston by train, and waited for an hour or two before leaving the station. This is typically because I've arrived early to either meet a friend or to catch a Megabus from the bus station, I intend to spend the time reading, and the station (often, the waiting room on the central platform) is the best (or perhaps more accurately, the least bad) place I know of to do that. Does that mean if that if I did that at the wrong time, I could get (incorrectly) accused of fare evasion by Virgin staff when I did try to leave the station?

 

[miami]

If you start, break or resume your journey at an intermediate station where
you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. The
price for this will be the difference between the amount paid for the Ticket
you hold and the lowest price Ticket available for immediate travel that
would have entitled you to start, break or resume your journey at the station
concerned.

Lets say you live in Garstang, half way between Preston and Lancaster. Sometimes travel to London works out better from Preston, sometimes from Lancaster, depending on buses, taxis and lifts.

If you were to travel from Preston to London on the outbound of a Lancaster->London OffPeak Return (£93.20), with the train were to arrive into London at 13:00, when the lowest price ticket available for immediate travel was an £89.30 off peak return, that would presumably mean a negative excess?

However if you were to then travel London to Lancaster the next day on the 12:30 using the return half, would there be an excess of £3.60 as there's an argument the correct ticket would have been £89.30 (PRE-LON-PRE) + £7.50 (PRE-LAN) = £96.80. Or would the excess be £258.80 to a £352 Anytime return from Lancaster? Or would the be no excess due at all?

 

[Bletchleyite]

In practice, nobody would care *unless* you travelled to Preston on what would be a peak train for a Preston ticket. I suppose officially the excess would be to the Anytime Return from Lancaster, though, as you can only excess one ticket to one ticket.

 

[BigCj34]

And if they were allowed to restrict it in both directions, they'd do that, too.
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The legit option is to double back from Lancaster - you have then taken two perfectly valid separate journeys, and have experienced the slight inconvenience in order to save money, so I doubt VT would complain either, as what they've done is got what you were willing to pay for your journey as well as what some people on expenses were willing to pay for theirs - it's a perfect piece of price differentiation, as nobody on expenses is in a million years going to do that doubleback to save money.

In my view the splitting option you describe using another ticket from the south is not permitted, though others' views may (and do) vary[1] on the matter. To me if it was caught that would be a clear RoRA prosecution - the purchase of the "dumbbelled" (sort-of) split ticket shows clear intent to evade the fare. And you definitely wouldn't get away with Lostock Hall as they know it doesn't originate or stop there, in any case (Preston does not have general barriers, these revenue checks are done on that specific platform).

[1] The issue is to whether "leaving a ticket" to move onto another is BoJ or not. I would say that if actually leaving the train early is BoJ, then so is doing that - I think others differ. But as, unless you have a season ticket as one or more of the split parts, a ticket from Lostock Hall has no validity at all in this scenario, that isn't even relevant - that issue is only relevant were it a ticket from Wigan (say).

What do you mean by dumbelled ticket? Im only using Lostock Hall as an example as it was previously pointed that's the nearest station so probably the cheapest fare to make it appear as if a legit journey has been made. Perhaps a more appropriate option would be Wigan NW. In any case, even if a valid ticket from Wigan NW is carried an illegal break of journey has most certainly been made if the passenger does not complete their advance ticket trip from Euston to Lancaster. It would probably be a lot easier to escape detection doing that, though highly illegal.

With regards to talking about a split, I was only taking about doing a regular legal split from Euston to Preston (if available), so buying a ticket from Euston to Lancaster would not be factored in with that particular instance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What do you mean by dumbelled ticket?

Dumbbelling is where you buy a ticket to get you through the barriers at both ends but not for the middle section - for example travelling from Euston to Milton Keynes Central using a Euston-South Hampstead and Bletchley-Milton Keynes Central ticket. Staff know about this ruse and are actively looking for it.

Buying Euston-Lancaster and Lostock Hall-Preston is not quite dumbbelling because there isn't a gap, though there notionally is because of the invalidity of alighting at Preston; in effect, in a similar way, you have a ticket to get through the barriers at both ends (you wouldn't at Preston because they barrier a specific platform for a specific train, though) but not valid for what you actually do.

Im only using Lostock Hall as an example as it was previously pointed that's the nearest station so probably the cheapest fare to make it appear as if a legit journey has been made.

The railway takes a dim view of people buying tickets to "appear as if a legit journey has been made", and are likely to go straight for a RoRA prosecution, the success of which is a near certainty, if they catch someone doing that.

With regards to talking about a split, I was only taking about doing a regular legal split from Euston to Preston (if available), so buying a ticket from Euston to Lancaster would not be factored in with that particular instance.

There'd be little point in doing that unless the fare was lower - the restrictions to Wigan will be the same as Preston.

 

[Bertie the bus]

What are the holes you speak of with regards to stopping short but buying a ticket from Lostock Hall to Preston? Unless you're physically caught getting off the train or picked up on CCTV, what else could go wrong? I wouldn't do it of course, the more sensible and legal option would be to split or just double back from Lancaster.

While split ticketing is something that does benefit passengers in our hybrid airline/distance pricing/selectively regulated ticket pricing, cheaper fares for longer journeys is the downside.

If you think I'm going to give a step by step guide to fare dodging at Preston station then you are very much mistaken.

Let's just say the Lostock Hall suggestion is at best naive and at worst utterly stupid. And that doesn't even touch on any legal or moral arguments.

 

[miami]

The railway takes a dim view of people buying tickets to "appear as if a legit journey has been made", and are likely to go straight for a RoRA prosecution, the success of which is a near certainty, if they catch someone doing that.

I've never heard of anyone being prosecuted for the old Preston/Lancaster trick

(the easiest way to avoid such prosecution is to ensure you use a valid ticket, there are cheaper-than-£351-anytime ways of travelling Preston-Euston and return with a valid ticket with Lancaster conditions, sub £150 return for example)

 

[BigCj34]

If you think I'm going to give a step by step guide to fare dodging at Preston station then you are very much mistaken.

Let's just say the Lostock Hall suggestion is at best naive and at worst utterly stupid. And that doesn't even touch on any legal or moral arguments.

Sorry, wasn't intending to exploit the dark arts of rail travel! But now that you mention it it's like asking a policeman how to not get caught doing a crime, they may well know but they will certainly not be revealing it. Plus there's always CCTV to clear all doubt anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've never heard of anyone being prosecuted for the old Preston/Lancaster trick

If they just turned up at Preston with an Off Peak Lancaster ticket it'd no doubt be "cough up or I want to see you getting on the next train to Lancaster". Deliberate evasion using another ticket could well be seen differently, though.

I'd suggest removing the actual fare from your example as it might help them close the loophole

 

[Haywain]

If you were to travel from Preston to London on the outbound of a Lancaster->London OffPeak Return (£93.20), with the train were to arrive into London at 13:00, when the lowest price ticket available for immediate travel was an £89.30 off peak return, that would presumably mean a negative excess?

No, it would mean the ticket has been used. There is no such thing as a negative excess.

However if you were to then travel London to Lancaster the next day on the 12:30 using the return half, would there be an excess of £3.60 as there's an argument the correct ticket would have been £89.30 (PRE-LON-PRE) + £7.50 (PRE-LAN) = £96.80. Or would the excess be £258.80 to a £352 Anytime return from Lancaster? Or would the be no excess due at all?

As there is no negative excess there can be no positive excess in the situation you have outlined.

 

[neilmc]

I wonder how many travellers from Preston to London are driven NORTH up the M6 to Lancaster each day by their dutiful spouses, only to return past their town on the train an hour or so later?

Presumably Virgin consider that either:
a) peak travellers from Preston are likely to have their ticket costs picked up by an employer who will just sign off expenses with no thought as to whether they are being legally cheated or
b) Lancastrians are pretty thick and will never spot this kind of thing being perpetrated

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect (a). There will be very little London-bound business travel originating from Lancaster as it's not big enough to have an awful lot of business there.

 

[PR1Berske]

This thread might well have influenced this story in today's Lancashire Evening Post

..AN MP has accused Virgin Trains of “ripping off” rail users in Lancashire. Mark Menzies claims the company is “milking” passengers between Preston and London by charging more than three times as much as those from Lancaster travelling on the same trains. “I find it abhorrent,” said the Fylde MP who has pledged to raise the matter in Parliament. “It is a very poorly thought-out pricing policy and it must stop now.” A ticket on the 7.58am Euston service from Preston last Thursday cost £145, while travellers from Lancaster – 20 miles further north – were charged only £46.60. Virgin said peak time prices reflected the high number of business travellers catching trains at Preston, adding that lower fares were available outside peak times. Mr Menzies’ protest follows the case of a passenger from his constituency who was threatened with arrest after buying a cheaper ticket from Lancaster and boarding the train at Preston. The businessman, a regular rail traveller to the capital, was ordered by the conductor to pay the full fare on the spot or risk prosecution. It has now emerged that some rail users have been getting on at Preston, travelling north to Lancaster and then boarding trains to London at the cheaper fares. Another passenger claimed he bought a ticket from London to Lancaster and, when he tried to get off early at Preston, he was told he must continue his journey through to Lancaster and then get a train back to Preston. Otherwise he would be committing fraud. Single fares to London on Thursday last week cost £46.60 from Lancaster on the 7.38am service, but £145 from Preston on the same train departing at 7.58am. Returning on the 4.30pm service from Euston, the cheapest ticket to Preston cost £82, but only £42.50 for passengers continuing on to Lancaster. For a journey next Monday, the return journey costs £227 from Preston to London Euston. The return journey to Lancaster – one stop further away from the capital – on the same train, costs £89.10, a difference of £137.90. Tickets from Lancaster can be bought off-peak, whereas the same train is classified as peak when it arrives at Preston and continues to London. “As a member of the Transport Select Committee, I’m not standing to the side and watching something that is continually hurting my hard-working constituents who need to travel to London,” said Mark Menzies. “It is a very poorly-thought out pricing policy and it must stop now. “Passengers are being charged a premium to travel some 40 fewer miles on the railway, and prevented from travelling at peak times.” The row comes less than six months after it was revealed rail travellers could pay more for a standard anytime return ticket between Preston and Euston than people booking a five-night holiday in New York.

Read more at: http://www.lep.co.uk/your-lancashir...y-of-ripping-off-preston-passengers-1-8325638.

Source: http://www.lep.co.uk/your-lancashir...y-of-ripping-off-preston-passengers-1-8325638

 

[Haywain]

A nice mix of fare types in that article!

 

[bb21]

Clearly as a member of Transport Select Committee, he is not doing a very good job so far if he had not managed to pick this up until now?! Equally he is not a very good MP if his constituents had been "ripped off" for so long and he had just noticed it, or perhaps he always knew there was nothing he could do in respect of unregulated fares, just making a bit of noise this time to make it appear as if he could do something? :roll:

Makes you wonder how many MPs in the committee actually care about what their jobs entail.

 

[Iskra]

Won't they just now raise the fares at Lancaster? ...Which also has a lot of business travellers due to the universities, hospitals, nuclear power plant and being close to a lot of nice places to live.

And then where do they stop? Because Oxenholme Lake District is just up the line and then they will have it cheaper...

 

[Kite159]

Good news, Virgin has announced the end of the issue and have introduced new peak restrictions to tickets purchased for Lancaster (Joke)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A nice mix of fare types in that article!

The "£46.60" Lancaster-Euston single is probably the "Saver Half" which you can buy only in combination with another fare in the opposite direction (the off peak return is £93.20).
A straight off peak single is £92.20.

The issue is not fare levels but peak restrictions.
We have the same issue at Chester, which has the same draconian peak restrictions as Preston, but if you start in North Wales (eg Flint, same fare as Chester) and they are significantly easier.
Further, the low-restriction off-peak tickets (Lancaster 3A, Flint VK) do not allow break of journey, while the high-restriction ones (Preston, Chester 2C) do.

There is more space to fill north of Preston and west of Chester. Simple supply and demand.
I'm also pretty sure BR operated the same system, though not as extreme as today.

 

[Hellfire]

I'll say, first of all, that my employer pays for my tickets between Preston and Euston so I have no incentive to get round the fares issue and this question is purely hypothetical

However, if I bought an advance ticket from Euston to Lancaster and, at the same time, bought a single from Wigan NW to Preston, then got off at Preston, what offence would I have committed?