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Preston/Lancaster pricing shenanigans

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Bletchleyite

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Good news, Virgin has announced the end of the issue and have introduced new peak restrictions to tickets purchased for Lancaster ;) (Joke)


I suspect, as with MKC in the evening, the franchise agreement prohibits them doing so. I equally suspect the next one won't and they will come along in due course.


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najaB

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However, if I bought an advance ticket from Euston to Lancaster and, at the same time, bought a single from Wigan NW to Preston, then got off at Preston, what offence would I have committed?
Stopping short on an Advance ticket is strictly forbidden where it results in a financial advantage.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'll say, first of all, that my employer pays for my tickets between Preston and Euston so I have no incentive to get round the fares issue and this question is purely hypothetical

However, if I bought an advance ticket from Euston to Lancaster and, at the same time, bought a single from Wigan NW to Preston, then got off at Preston, what offence would I have committed?


At least a Byelaw offence of making the journey you made without a valid ticket, and the additional ticket might well make RoRA provable as well as it is clearly a deliberate attempt to evade the fare.


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All Line Rover

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Stopping short on an Advance ticket is strictly forbidden where it results in a financial advantage.

At least a Byelaw offence of making the journey you made without a valid ticket, and the additional ticket might well make RoRA provable as well as it is clearly a deliberate attempt to evade the fare.

An Advance ticket does not "specifically exclude [its] use in conjunction with other tickets" (NRCoT 14.3).

At no point does the customer alight the train while using the Advance ticket, meaning there is no break of journey of any sort.

Neil, you do realise that Hellfire's suggestion would not involve using the Wigan to Preston ticket purely to exit Preston station, but would involve combining it with the London to Lancaster ticket (Advance or walk-up)?
 

najaB

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An Advance ticket does not "specifically exclude [its] use in conjunction with other tickets" (NRCoT 14.3).
I agree, however the Advance ticket T&C's prohibit starting and stopping short. If a passenger has a Euston-Lancaster Advance ticket but doesn't go to Lancaster then, no matter how you slice it, they have stopped short.
 

All Line Rover

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I agree, however the Advance ticket T&C's prohibit starting and stopping short. If a passenger has a Euston-Lancaster Advance ticket but doesn't go to Lancaster then, no matter how you slice it, they have stopped short.

The extent to which one ticket can be "combined" with another when the validity of one of the tickets extends either side of the other, is open to debate, I admit. But just as there is no statement in the NRCoT or Advance ticket T&Cs that "stopping short on an Advance ticket is strictly forbidden where it results in a financial advantage", the very phrase "stopping short" is not used.

Both the NRCoT and the Advance ticket T&Cs use the phrase "end your journey" (NRCoT 16.4 and 16.5), with the NRCoT expressly stating that "a journey" can consist of "a combination of two or more tickets" (NRCoT 14.1). Therefore, a passenger on a Euston to Lancaster ticket has not "stopped short" when alighting at Preston on a Wigan to Preston ticket if the two tickets "combine" (which I suggest they do, despite their overlapping validity*) and thus the passenger ends 'their journey' using the Wigan to Preston ticket.

*WARNING: Conjecture!
 
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Clip

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The extent to which one ticket can be "combined" with another when the validity of one of the tickets extends either side of the other, is open to debate, I admit. But just as there is no statement in the NRCoT or Advance ticket T&Cs that "stopping short on an Advance ticket is strictly forbidden where it results in a financial advantage", the very phrase "stopping short" is not used.

Both the NRCoT and the Advance ticket T&Cs use the phrase "end your journey" (NRCoT 16.4 and 16.5), with the NRCoT expressly stating that "a journey" can consist of "a combination of two or more tickets" (NRCoT 14.1). Therefore, a passenger on a Euston to Lancaster ticket has not "stopped short" when alighting at Preston on a Wigan to Preston ticket if the two tickets "combine" (which I suggest they do, despite their overlapping validity*) and thus the passenger ends 'their journey' using the Wigan to Preston ticket.

*WARNING: Conjecture!

Im sorry but the two tickets do not combine at all.

Its quite clear that the lancaster ticket ends only at Lancaster.

Therefore a ticket from Wigan to Preston can NOT combine from Lancaster where the first ticket ended.
 

30907

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This thread might well have influenced this story in today's Lancashire Evening Post




Source: http://www.lep.co.uk/your-lancashir...y-of-ripping-off-preston-passengers-1-8325638

And BBC local news where Tony Miles had sensible things to say.

The earliest example I can think of is the 1970s BR Monthly Return which had the Saturday-night- away rule which some traditional airlines still use.
And tickets to Scotland which were valid any time (because it took so long I presume ) but had an outward BOJ restriction to stop abstraction by Newcastle pax - probably ICWC too.

And BTW it is particularly a West Coast issue - East Coast Saver fares are much higher (Leeds £170 Preston £90 in round figures. Simply because that's how it was in 1994 or whenever.
 
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najaB

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The extent to which one ticket can be "combined" with another when the validity of one of the tickets extends either side of the other, is open to debate, I admit. But just as there is no statement in the NRCoT or Advance ticket T&Cs that "stopping short on an Advance ticket is strictly forbidden where it results in a financial advantage", the very phrase "stopping short" is not used.
Not in those exact words, but the Advance Ticket T&Cs clearly state:
Break of journey
You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.
In this example Preston would be an intermediate station on a Euston-Lancaster journey, as would Wigan NW.

Edit: Forgot to add - the reference to financial advantage isn't from either the T&Cs or the the NRCoT but to industry guidance which has been posted in previous threads to the effect that the violations of the Break of Journey restrictions on Advance tickets should, generally speaking, be ignored when there is no clear intent to cheat the system.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Neil, you do realise that Hellfire's suggestion would not involve using the Wigan to Preston ticket purely to exit Preston station, but would involve combining it with the London to Lancaster ticket (Advance or walk-up)?

Advance tickets do not just explicitly prohibit BoJ, they also prohibit starting or stopping short. Switching to another ticket is stopping short. Therefore, if making the journey in the way described no valid ticket is held, and as such both a Byelaw and RoRA (evidenced by the deliberate use of another ticket) prosecution would in my view succeed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Not in those exact words, but the Advance Ticket T&Cs clearly state:
In this example Preston would be an intermediate station on a Euston-Lancaster journey, as would Wigan NW.

Exactly. The user would be in breach of the T&C, therefore would hold no valid ticket. They might as well just fare-dodge for the difference it would pose.
 

All Line Rover

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In this example Preston would be an intermediate station on a Euston-Lancaster journey, as would Wigan NW.

We're returning to the issue of whether a Euston to Lancaster "journey" (according to the NRCoT definition) can be amended into a Euston to Preston "journey" when combining a Euston to Lancaster ticket with a Wigan to Preston ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Advance tickets do not just explicitly prohibit BoJ, they also prohibit starting or stopping short. Switching to another ticket is stopping short.

Where is the phrase "stopping short" defined, and in particular, where is it defined as including switching to another ticket?
 
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najaB

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We're returning to the issue of whether a Euston to Lancaster "journey" (according to the NRCoT definition) can be amended into a Euston to Preston "journey" when combining a Euston to Lancaster ticket with a Wigan to Preston ticket.
Yes you can. But only if the T&Cs of both tickets allow it - which in this case they don't.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Where is the phrase "stopping short" defined, and in particular, where is it defined as including switching to another ticket?
It isn't as it's a colloquial term. However, as stated above, the Advance Ticket T&Cs specifically state you cannot end your journey at an intermediate station. If you don't travel to Lancaster on a Euston-Lancaster Advance ticket then you haven't completed the journey.
 
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All Line Rover

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the reference to financial advantage isn't from either the T&Cs or the the NRCoT but to industry guidance which has been posted in previous threads to the effect that the violations of the Break of Journey restrictions on Advance tickets should, generally speaking, be ignored when there is no clear intent to cheat the system.

Well, quite, but I would be reluctant to turn the reasoning on its head and, especially, give the impression that that is a contractual condition.
 

najaB

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Well, quite, but I would be reluctant to turn the reasoning on its head and, especially, give the impression that that is a contractual condition.
It is not a contractual condition and apologies if my post made it sound like it was one. The contractual condition is in the Advance Ticket T&Cs as stated already.
 

najaB

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Let me try and preempt your argument: "But the journey I intended to make was Euston to Preston so I haven't ended the journey at an intermediate station as I never intended to go to Lancaster."

Again, to quote the Advance Ticket T&Cs:

Advance tickets are single (one-way) tickets for selected journeys available in First Class and Standard Class, offering the best available price for each journey.
Note 'journeys' not 'routes'. By purchasing an Advance ticket you have entered into a contract based on your making the journey covered by that ticket in full.

Note that neither Off Peak:
Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak fares are cheaper tickets for travelling on trains that are less busy. You may be required to travel at specific times of day, days of the week or on a specific route.
Nor Anytime tickets:
Anytime fares are fully flexible walk-up tickets with no restrictions on when you can travel.
include the word 'journey' in their description.
 
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All Line Rover

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Note 'journeys' not 'routes'. By purchasing an Advance ticket you have entered into a contract based on your making the journey covered by that ticket in full.

I believe you are reading something into the terms and conditions which is not there. I understand the emphasis of the sentence you quote to be on "selected", and whilst an Advance ticket is, of course, booked for "a journey", the crucial question is...

NRCoT said:
14.1 Unless shown below, you may use a combination of two or more Tickets to make a journey provided that the train services you use call at the station(s) where you change from one Ticket to another.

14.3 Some Tickets specifically exclude their use in conjunction with other Tickets. This will be made clear in the terms and conditions when buying such Tickets, and you cannot use such a Ticket in conjunction with another except as set out in 14.1 above.

14.4 In all cases you must comply with the specific terms and conditions of each of the Tickets you are using (for example, keeping to the valid route(s) and train services for which each Ticket is valid). It is your responsibility to check that you comply with the Conditions listed above.

[END]

...whether an exclusion of an Advance ticket's use with other tickets is "made clear in the terms and conditions" of Advance tickets. It is not, and while it could be, it won't be because that would cause great difficulties with onward journeys (e.g. to a connecting station to which through Advance tickets are not available).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
"But the journey I intended to make was Euston to Preston so I haven't ended the journey at an intermediate station as I never intended to go to Lancaster."

That is not quite my argument. It is more that "I ceased using the Lancaster ticket at Wigan but I did not end my journey at Wigan".
 
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Failed Unit

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This debate often comes around, we had it once about stopping short on a journey to Norwich.

The reality is it is very difficult to prove someone has stopped short if the hold either a Wigan / Lancaster - Preston ticket. I know they do give tokens out to prove people really got on at said station, but again difficult to prove the person didn't split the ticket at Wigan.

If you did split a journey are you under and legal obligation to keep your first ticket after you have passed your destination?

Bad PR but not the only place it happens. Edinburgh- London is often cheaper than Newcastle on the flying Scotsman.
 

AnkleBoots

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Virgin staff man the Platform 3/4 and 5/6 enterance from the footbridge and subways specifically for these train times [0758/0858] every day now for the prevention of this very wheeze of Preston passengers trying to get these trains holding Tickets from Lancaster
If I travel on an earlier train from Lancaster, meet a friend for coffee in Preston station, and continue on my way on the 0758, would I be in trouble?
 

najaB

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...whether an exclusion of an Advance ticket's use with other tickets is "made clear in the terms and conditions" of Advance tickets.
There is no such exclusion. You are perfectly free to combine one or more Advance tickets with one or more Anytime/Off Peak tickets for any journey you wish to make. For exactly the reason you state:
It is not, and while it could be, it won't be because that would cause great difficulties with onward journeys (e.g. to a connecting station to which through Advance tickets are not available).
However, the Advance Ticket T&Cs make it clear that you cannot end your journey at an intermediate station on the portion of your journey covered by that ticket. If you have an Advance ticket from Euston to Lancaster you must travel to Lancaster - I really can't see what isn't clear about that.
 

All Line Rover

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If I travel on an earlier train from Lancaster, meet a friend for coffee in Preston station, and continue on my way on the 0758, would I be in trouble?

Depends on what a "break of journey" is. I don't believe there to be an authoritative definition, which from the passenger's perspective is probably beneficial.
 

island

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At least a Byelaw offence of making the journey you made without a valid ticket

There is no such Byelaw offence. The Byelaw 18 offences are joining a train without a valid ticket or failing to show a ticket for inspection.
 

Goatboy

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A nice mix of fare types in that article!

Is that relevant though? Whilst obviously the flexible ticket offers many benefits if you don't want any of these benefits, are happy to commit to that particular train but the cheapest available ticket is the flex the difference in ticket type is immaterial - you can't travel for less than £145 but Bob from Lancaster can.
 

All Line Rover

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the Advance Ticket T&Cs make it clear that you cannot end your journey at an intermediate station on the portion of your journey covered by that ticket. If you have an Advance ticket from Euston to Lancaster you must travel to Lancaster - I really can't see what isn't clear about that.

Because there is presently no prohibition against transferring to a Wigan to Preston ticket on departure from Wigan which, while the passenger is not ending their journey at Wigan (and therefore compliant with a strict reading of the terms and conditions of the Lancaster ticket), does mean that they have ceased using the Lancaster ticket and can dispose of it.

It is a nice distinction, but a valid one, I believe. It doesn't just apply to Advance tickets. It applies to any ticket with a prohibition against ending "your journey" at intermediate stations (which, being a prohibition of that ticket, will apply when using that ticket).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There is no such exclusion. You are perfectly free to combine one or more Advance tickets with one or more Anytime/Off Peak tickets for any journey you wish to make.

It's worth mentioning that you are free to believe that an Advance ticket cannot logically be "used" / "combined" with another ticket when the two overlap, and I couldn't say that you are wrong. But nor could I say that you are definitely correct.
 
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najaB

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Because there is presently no prohibition against transferring to a Wigan to Preston ticket on departure from Wigan which, while the passenger is not ending their journey at Wigan, does mean that they have ceased using the Lancaster ticket and can dispose of it.
The T&Cs of the Advance ticket make it clear that they cannot 'cease using the ticket' at an intermediate station.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's worth mentioning that you are free to believe that an Advance ticket cannot logically be "used" / "combined" with another ticket when the two overlap, and I couldn't say that you are wrong. But nor could I say that you are definitely correct.
Two Advance tickets can overlap - there is no reason why they couldn't. There will just be a bit in the middle where the passenger is using both tickets at the same time.
 

All Line Rover

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The T&Cs of the Advance ticket make it clear that they cannot 'cease using the ticket' at an intermediate station.

"Cease using the ticket" or "end the journey"? I can't see the former (or a synonym) in the T&Cs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
...There will just be a bit in the middle where the passenger is using both tickets at the same time.

I'm intrigued to know whether anyone else thinks that two tickets with overlapping validity can both be "used" at the same time by one passenger.
 

All Line Rover

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I said that the passenger ceases to use the Lancaster ticket at Wigan, and then you said that "The T&Cs of the Advance ticket make it clear that [the passenger] cannot 'cease using the ticket'", so presumably you must be seeing a term that I can't?

In the absence of a prohibition of X, there is no prohibition of X.
 
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najaB

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I said that the passenger ceases to use the Lancaster ticket at Wigan, and then you said that "The T&Cs of the Advance ticket make it clear that [the passenger] cannot 'cease using the ticket'", so presumably you must be seeing a term that I can't?
Note that the term 'cease using the ticket' was in quotes since that's the way you chose to phrase it. I really struggle to see how you can say that alighting at Preston after purchasing a ticket for a journey to Lancaster is anything other than ending the journey early, regardless of any other tickets held.
 

All Line Rover

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That's fine, although I think it is best that we leave the discussion there unless anyone else wants to chip in, as otherwise we may end up going round in circles.
 
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