• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Gordon Hill - loop restoration

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ediswan

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2012
Messages
2,842
Location
Stevenage
That said, I'm presuming the map I linked to earlier has an error or two as with the points located where they're shown I can't see how you could reach platform 1 from the down line - fine when you're departing, but how on earth did they get trains into it!

I spotted that as well. It is possible with reversing of course, but at the cost of blocking the through lines while doing so. The current crossover to get down trains into platform 1 is just south of Holtwhites Hill, but nothing shown on that map series. Another mystery.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Class377/5

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2010
Messages
5,594
Yep. I will by trying out the various options myself. Personally I hope that I can use direct to Farringdon but if I need to pay a premium I will still head to Moorgate.

For interest how (m)any platforms on the Hertford loop can take 8 car trains.

At the moment if we have disruption on the WGC line Hertford gets ditched. Is that for the greater good or can't 8 coach services stop there anyway? Totally understand it is eating paths but I don't recall even when the London - Peterborough was routed that way (non-stop Hertford - Finsbury Park) it ever running as 8 coach.

Just wondering why in the recast Hertford- Core isn't considered. Always assumed it was platform length.

As I understand it there should be nothing stopping 387/700 calling there. 700019 has done some testing on the Hertford Loop.

I think, and it is think, the class 717 SDO database will be shared with the 700 one so its one system thats used on all three lengths of trains.

I suspect if a big project was going to look into this it will be cross-rail 2. Currently planned from New Southgate. It is many years away but it could do something to ease the crush. Even if it is just give people from the Southern end of the route a different option. However not sure if demand / practically / risk of disruption will ever provide a spur to Gordon hill as well as new Southgate. I suspect if the need was their someone would have suggested it already as an option.

There is the increased tph + class 717 upgrade, then there is ATO on Moorgate route then Crossrail 2 upgrade to help deal with the loadings. How well it will do that is up for grabs.

I'm very in favour of Crossrail 2 having an interchange with the Hertford Line.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,685
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
What was the reason the platforms tunnels at Moorgate couldn't be extended northwards to lengthen them? Even if it was only Moorgate and the surface stations that were enlarged, would it help matters if Essex Road and H&I were skipped by some longer services? It cannot be beyond the wit of man to achieve this - the Northern Line's platform tunnels were enlarged in the 1930s for longer trains, after all. Yes, these are bigger tunnels, but the principles are the same.

£££££.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
17,867
Location
Airedale
I spotted that as well. It is possible with reversing of course, but at the cost of blocking the through lines while doing so. The current crossover to get down trains into platform 1 is just south of Holtwhites Hill, but nothing shown on that map series. Another mystery.

OS maps at that scale aren't totally infallible. Experienced that myself!

I don't think the down loop would have been regularly used as a loop, but for overnight stabling. Pre dieselisation not many trains started or finished there.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
£££££.

The scissors crossover is pretty much immediately at the northern end of the platform tunnels. That would also have to be relocated northward too which would be some pretty serious and highly long-term dsruptive tunnel engineering (and risky with the Northern Line sitting immediately below the NCL tunnels). The capacity crunch on the Hertford Loop is nowhere near severe enough to justify the level of £££.

And having 'long' trains skip H&I is a non-starter - it is *the* interchange from the GN inners to the West End (and, to a lesser extent, north end of Vic Line to parts of the City), via the Vic Line (and increasingly the ELL and NLL too), so is the peak hour critical load point from the north. Not to mention the platform congestion problems that would be caused by gaps in calls.
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
8,857
Location
Central Belt
It is hard to tell the exit / entry a Highbury and Islington and where they go but it is where the train changes from sardine run to comfortable. Hardly surprising considering the extended number of interchanges on offer there. I have in the past used it to get to the Hammersmith area. A lot of others headed to those platforms as well.

Not all Victoria line passengers that may use Finsbury Park once the interchange improves.
 

SprinterMan

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2010
Messages
2,341
Location
Hertford
As I understand it there should be nothing stopping 387/700 calling there. 700019 has done some testing on the Hertford Loop.

I think, and it is think, the class 717 SDO database will be shared with the 700 one so its one system thats used on all three lengths of trains.



There is the increased tph + class 717 upgrade, then there is ATO on Moorgate route then Crossrail 2 upgrade to help deal with the loadings. How well it will do that is up for grabs.

I'm very in favour of Crossrail 2 having an interchange with the Hertford Line.

We (the Hertford Loop) actually already have one Class 387 service a week already! :P

On a Saturday morning, 2P99 0325 PBO - KGX via HFN is booked for a Class 387. It is a 365 M-F, but on a Saturday it's a 387.

Adam :D
 

Class377/5

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2010
Messages
5,594
We (the Hertford Loop) actually already have one Class 387 service a week already! :P

On a Saturday morning, 2P99 0325 PBO - KGX via HFN is booked for a Class 387. It is a 365 M-F, but on a Saturday it's a 387.

Adam :D

That a four or eight car?
 

SprinterMan

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2010
Messages
2,341
Location
Hertford
That a four or eight car?

Four car. I'm not sure any stations on the Hertford loop can take 8 cars. Gordon Hill is out of space with 6. Hertford North might just be able to take 8 cars, but it would be pushing it.

An interesting note about this train (and it's reverse working, 2F99 0105 KGX - RYS via HFN) is that they are the only regularly timetabled trains to pass through Watton-At-Stone without calling there. Class 365s are unable to call at Crews Hill and Bayford due to incompatibility with the DOO monitors used there, but they can call at Watton. Although in these cases, they don't :P

Adam :D
 

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
What was the reason the platforms tunnels at Moorgate couldn't be extended northwards to lengthen them? Even if it was only Moorgate and the surface stations that were enlarged, would it help matters if Essex Road and H&I were skipped by some longer services? It cannot be beyond the wit of man to achieve this - the Northern Line's platform tunnels were enlarged in the 1930s for longer trains, after all. Yes, these are bigger tunnels, but the principles are the same.

Personally I think any work that was needed on Moorgate shouldve been lumped in with the Thameslink project just after the blockade at the Cross many years ago. The money will never be found for it now I reckon.
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
7,909
I think the idea is the turnback platform will move to the centre, thus easing throughout a little.

Perhaps in the fullness of time this will allow a more intensive service, although I don't see Gordon Hill being a major constraint on the Hertford line, when set against bigger constraints such as Moorgate.

Its is more of a constraint when the main ECML is closed through Welwyn and Intercity services are diverted via Hertford. Perhaps with a centre loop local services can use this to wait for faster ECML services to pass.

You'd have to find a way to get more than 14tph into Moorgate first...


I don't know about freight, and there seems to be capacity reserved for diversions, but it still seems that the Hertford Loop is relatively empty and underused normally.

I think larger freight has to go this way (W9?) as Welwyn is cleared for such freight. I believe its used for ECML (Humberside / Yorkshire) to Felixstowe freight when the route via Ely is closed and traffic has to travel via London.

IIRC it was once capable of turning around 16tph+.

The problem obviously is when the 717s get crush loaded in 20 years time and there's no scope to increase service frequencies further.

If Moorgate is an obvious bottleneck, I wonder if in the future a solution will be found by turning some trains back at Finsbury Park, which will still provide a good link to London. Passing loops could even enable some faster services, which would also relieve pressure on other stations.

Considering TfL will possibly take control (looking less likely at the moment) then I guess there's no chance that you might get some services intentionally diverted into King's Cross, but that's another option perhaps? Maybe still run by GTR and using ordinary 700s?

Real radical pie in the sky thinking, extend southwards to join with a Southern or Southeastern Route - Cross rail 3. (OK probably too radical and expensive)

Welwyn Garden City - Dartford anyone?

I suspect if a big project was going to look into this it will be cross-rail 2. Currently planned from New Southgate. It is many years away but it could do something to ease the crush. Even if it is just give people from the Southern end of the route a different option. However not sure if demand / practically / risk of disruption will ever provide a spur to Gordon hill as well as new Southgate. I suspect if the need was their someone would have suggested it already as an option.

I don't see Moorgate as a critical bottleneck as yet for the following reason. Crossrail 2 is proposing to terminate at New Southgate as well as operate on the Lea Valley. I would instead suggest extending the New Southgate terminating services through to Welwyn Garden City and not running Welwyn Garden City to Moorgate services with the capacity freed up at Moorgate being used to enhance Hertford North to Moorgate frequencies.
In terms of capacity at Moorgate whether its 14 /16 or 18tph can this not be improved with step back working similar to the Victoria Line? Walthamstow Central and Brixton both only have two platforms each.
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,396
I would instead suggest extending the New Southgate terminating services through to Welwyn Garden City and not running Welwyn Garden City to Moorgate services with the capacity freed up at Moorgate being used to enhance Hertford North to Moorgate frequencies.

I'm fairly sure that at peak hours the WGC service will be operated by Thameslink (4tph) using the eight-car Class 700/0s.
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
8,857
Location
Central Belt
I'm fairly sure that at peak hours the WGC service will be operated by Thameslink (4tph) using the eight-car Class 700/0s.

The local service will be into Moorgate, as now just 4 tph as now.
2tph - from Cambridge (going into core)
2tph - from Welwyn into core calling at Hatfield, potters bar, new Barnet, oakleigh park, new Southgate and Finsbury Park.

So no improvement in terms of frequency, but people from some of these stations may move away from Moorgate as the core stations may work better.
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,396
The local service will be into Moorgate, as now just 4 tph as now.
2tph - from Cambridge (going into core)
2tph - from Welwyn into core calling at Hatfield, potters bar, new Barnet, oakleigh park, new Southgate and Finsbury Park.

So no improvement in terms of frequency, but people from some of these stations may move away from Moorgate as the core stations may work better.

By peak-hour service, I mean the Welwyn 4tph which was planned to run to Caterham, although the southern destination might have changed. Is such a service not planned still?
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
8,857
Location
Central Belt
By peak-hour service, I mean the Welwyn 4tph which was planned to run to Caterham, although the southern destination might have changed. Is such a service not planned still?

No - only 2tph. I think Maidstone is the standard off peak. Need to look up the peak but I think it is a southeastern route.
 

43074

Established Member
Joined
10 Oct 2012
Messages
2,003
It's 2tph Cambridge to Maidstone East and 2tph Welwyn Garden City to Sevenoaks with the Sevenoaks running at peak times only, providing a 4tph semi-fast service for Potters Bar, Hatfield etc in the peak direction.

Given Thameslink was supposed to do something about the tangle at London Bridge, having the Maidstone and Luton to Rainham services crossing on the flat in the station throat area seems to defeat the whole objective of the project, but that's a different debate...
 
Last edited:

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,685
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
By peak-hour service, I mean the Welwyn 4tph which was planned to run to Caterham, although the southern destination might have changed. Is such a service not planned still?

These are all outer-suburban. The inner-suburban service calling at all stations to Moorgate appears to be largely left alone. There would be a lot of merit in moving the all-stations service to Thameslink - more suitable services for the 700s, capacity uplift as trains would be 8 cars instead of 6, and allowing a big frequency uplift on the Hertford-Moorgate route as the Hertford Loop takes up the vacated paths into Moorgate. A bonus is more longer-distance services can keep 365s or 387s too, which wouldn't go down badly at all.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,013
Location
UK
I'm annoyed there's still only one train per hour to/from Hatfield on Sunday, but if we get 4tph to Moorgate then that's better - except for the fact I'll have to go up to Finsbury Park to get those.

It would be nice if GTR was at least proposing two trains an hour on a Sunday into King's Cross. There must be ample capacity and it's just a cost thing or a belief that there's not enough passenger numbers - which I find hard to believe for much of the day (accepting there will be some quiet times, but there are in the week too!).
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,267
It's 2tph Cambridge to Maidstone East and 2tph Welwyn Garden City to Sevenoaks with the Sevenoaks running at peak times only, providing a 4tph semi-fast service for Potters Bar, Hatfield etc in the peak direction.

Given Thameslink was supposed to do something about the tangle at London Bridge, having the Maidstone and Luton to Rainham services crossing on the flat in the station throat area seems to defeat the whole objective of the project, but that's a different debate...

It won't be happening in the station throat area, and up Rainham to Luton services will be grade separated from down Thameslink services that are heading towards New Cross Gate. Up direction Thameslink trains off the Southeastern will use the most northern track of the four through the diveunder, and join the dedicated up Thameslink line at Blue Anchor junction.

From memory I think the opposite direction junction is known as Corbetts Lane, but will check later.
 
Last edited:

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
7,909
Word is that the New Southgate branch has, or is close to being, dropped.

I thought that was there for access to a new depot facility? Where would that go instead? Bizzarely I would have thought New Southgate was the worse place to have a depot and that Welwyn may well be better (on the existing carriage sidings) along with perhaps a facility at Broxbourne (on the existing yard there). The land must be cheaper too.
 

mr_jrt

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2011
Messages
1,400
Location
Brighton
I thought that was there for access to a new depot facility? Where would that go instead? Bizzarely I would have thought New Southgate was the worse place to have a depot and that Welwyn may well be better (on the existing carriage sidings) along with perhaps a facility at Broxbourne (on the existing yard there). The land must be cheaper too.

Largely my response when I was told! ...and in response, dunno. I've been assured there are sites along the Lea Valley that could be used, though I'm not aware of any whatsoever...
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
7,909
Largely my response when I was told! ...and in response, dunno. I've been assured there are sites along the Lea Valley that could be used, though I'm not aware of any whatsoever...

The nearest sites I can think of would be Broxbourne at the top end and possibly near to Orient Way CS at the southern end of the Lea Valley though it must be said the latter is not directly on the Crossrail 2 Route.
 

mr_jrt

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2011
Messages
1,400
Location
Brighton
The nearest sites I can think of would be Broxbourne at the top end and possibly near to Orient Way CS at the southern end of the Lea Valley though it must be said the latter is not directly on the Crossrail 2 Route.

Actually, you might be on to something there. You would want the depot as close to the core as you could mange (See: Old Oak Common, Plumstead, Ilford). Having a depot south of the portal wouldn't be too dissimilar to how the Northern Line is connected to Highgate Depot, or indeed, Crossrail 2 will be connected to Wimbledon Depot.

Regardless, this is somewhat off-topic for Gordon Hill, so we'd best leave it there!
 

43074

Established Member
Joined
10 Oct 2012
Messages
2,003
It won't be happening in the station throat area, and up Rainham to Luton services will be grade separated from down Thameslink services that are heading towards New Cross Gate. Up direction Thameslink trains off the Southeastern will use the most northern track of the four through the diveunder, and join the dedicated up Thameslink line at Blue Anchor junction.

From memory I think the opposite direction junction is known as Corbetts Lane, but will check later.

That's still more integration with Southeastern services via London Bridge than was originally envisaged though, isn't it?
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,267
That's still more integration with Southeastern services via London Bridge than was originally envisaged though, isn't it?

Yes, I was really only wishing to emphasise that it wouldn't be done by flat crossing in the station area, but I agree there will be conflicts once away from the 'Thameslink' tracks but they will be on 'Southeastern' rather than 'Thameslink' main routes towards Sussex.

But as far as 'originally envisaged' goes, it really depends how long you go back in time for your start point.

The 2011 London and SE RUS definitely included four trains per hour to/from the SE in that area, it is presumably exactly why there are four lines through the dive under, rather than the three you'd be able to get away with otherwise. So they are going back to a previous 'share out' of routes between the different TOCs, which means the reasoning used in the TSGN consultation and report has been overturned.

But this is getting off the main purpose of this thread, it has already been covered in another more focussed discussion somewhere.
 

Class377/5

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2010
Messages
5,594
It's 2tph Cambridge to Maidstone East and 2tph Welwyn Garden City to Sevenoaks with the Sevenoaks running at peak times only, providing a 4tph semi-fast service for Potters Bar, Hatfield etc in the peak direction.

Given Thameslink was supposed to do something about the tangle at London Bridge, having the Maidstone and Luton to Rainham services crossing on the flat in the station throat area seems to defeat the whole objective of the project, but that's a different debate...

Worth pointing out when the track layout was settled on Thameslink was going to be running a 4tph service from London Bridge to Dartford so it's actually doing the same as NR originally planned for.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top