First Group: General Discussion

[AaronR]

There are a few things to consider

We don't actually know how well these places are trading. Clearly, places like Wigan were massively overdue fleet replacement with R reg Excels and P reg Darts pootling around the place.

Also, in the case of Plymouth, there was the ridiculous Ugobus incursion and the subsequent sell up to Go Ahead of PCB. The fall out was bad enough but then Go Ahead turned the tables and began all out war with a mortally weakened First. With Stagecoach going in there, and peace immediately being declared, it was going to allow fleet replacement.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


That's already happened with First Eastern Counties getting a number of ex Leeds 12 plate Geminis. To a lesser extent, Essex did get a number of e400s from Leicester as Trident replacements, displaced by new Streetdecks.

I think in terms of Potteries, they're trying to strike the balance between putting in new fleet (but being crippled by the depreciation cost) and not trying to gently upgrade the rest of the fleet (ALX B7TLs being replaced by newer B7 Geminis).

It's about time FEC Ipswich had some investment! The fleet there consist of various hand me downs that although have been refurbished are now getting old. It would be good to get some new vehicles on the Ipswich - Felixstowe routes as they are always well loaded, as are the Stowmarket routes. The excuse is always that the depot at Ipswich cannot accommodate higher deckers but surely at some stage it makes sense to invest in the depot to change that? Norwich has had major investment and is always getting the new buses/newer transfers but Ipswich gets nothing.

 

[ooo]

http://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2017/10-01-2017a.aspx

First Bus contactless commitment for customers

10 Jan 2017

Contactless pilot set to go live in Bristol by end of January 2017
Wider rollout of contactless technology planned across First Bus operations during 2017 & 2018 complementing its successful mobile ticketing and smartcard platforms*
Roll out will be underpinned by partnerships to deliver wider City and Regional schemes including working with Transport for the North (TfN) and Transport Scotland on delivery of multi modal schemes providing better value for customers*

The UK’s leading operator, First Bus, today announced a commitment to allow its customers to pay for travel through the use of contactless debit and credit cards. *

First Bus customers can already pay for bus travel using its successful smartcard and mobile payment (mTickets) mechanisms. *The company sees the contactless bank card as a further means of reducing the use of cash on buses and as a result speeding up boarding times and services across the UK.

The introduction of the new technology will begin with a trial in Bristol this month on Brislington and Portway Park and Ride services. *Roll out across the First Bus fleet will be achieved over the next two years working in partnership with city and regional partners such as TfN and Transport Scotland, Combined Authorities and local authorities. *

Shortened

 

[overthewater]

First West Yorkshire is the only one waiting to be submitted....

MIDLAND Bluebird, Looking at this, I'm a bit confused at the MAJOR cuts, I expect cuts but I don't think 20 buses being taken off the road? Remember Gala got 6 buses taken off, Stirling had 7, Larbert 7 and Balfron the rest. So its not easy to track which depot causing the trouble either..

First Edinburgh: Muss depot closed.

First Glasgow no1

Still made £6million in profit, not a poor man operations

 

[Volvodart]

Midland Bluebird would be the effect of the opening of the Borders Railway which resulted in cuts after the year end.

 

[overthewater]

Midland Bluebird would be the effect of the opening of the Borders Railway which resulted in cuts after the year end.

Of course, what I was trying to mean is the cuts were across the broad, and looking at those accounts there only loses of £300'000-ish. Yet someone at the company believe that it needed to trim even more fat beyond that of Borders Railway. Or was it the fact the company just wanted to get the routes right back down to the bone to see whats going on.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

First West Yorkshire is the only one waiting to be submitted....

MIDLAND Bluebird, Looking at this, I'm a bit confused at the MAJOR cuts, I expect cuts but I don't think 20 buses being taken off the road? Remember Gala got 6 buses taken off, Stirling had 7, Larbert 7 and Balfron the rest. So its not easy to track which depot causing the trouble either..

I wouldn't read too much into the management spiel which is written into the accounts. It's just a case of 'give us a couple of lines' to fill in a standard accounts report template. The bit about safety is repeated every year, unchanged.

As mentioned, by Grand Wazoo initially, the accounts mean not a lot really. They undoubtedly comply with the law and accounting regulations but things can be hidden, or not referred to. In the accounts for First Potteries, there is a line, under operating costs, of £3,155 (,000) for 'other external charges'. That could refer to group company re-charges, head office re-charges or be a means of moving profits within the group so the subsidiaries all make a loss (with tax advantages) whilst another company in the wider group makes a profit - think of licencing fees charged by companies based in off-shore tax havens to group companies based in the UK (and elsewhere). Similarly debt created between companies at higher than would reasonably be expected rates. I'm not saying that happens within First but it happens in many large groups.

 

[overthewater]

Cheers. Its also possible MB has to pay off its debt it racked up over the year, no fault of its own.

First Glasgow No2 making £4million profit.
First Aberdeen making £3.5 million.

First South Yorkshire Ltd did not expect this:

 

[Robertj21a]

Cheers. Its also possible MB has to pay off its debt it racked up over the year, no fault of its own.

First Glasgow No2 making £4million profit.
First Aberdeen making £3.5 million.

First South Yorkshire Ltd did not expect this:

And that's before they close Rotherham.

 

[overthewater]

And that's before they close Rotherham.

Has that closed yet?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Has that closed yet?

Closes next month IIRC

As Robert says, they cut the losses and that's before Rotherham goes. I don't know how large Rotherham depot actually is but had a quick go with a ruler and google maps. If it's about 160 ft2, then look at £4 a sq ft just for business rates and utilities. Make some savings in the back office and you see why they're doing it.

Can make the same case with First Manchester closing Bury

 

[baza585]

As mentioned, by Grand Wazoo initially, the accounts mean not a lot really. They undoubtedly comply with the law and accounting regulations but things can be hidden, or not referred to.

Had time to have a look at Companies House website today. Bearing the above in mind, there are good performances from a number of subsids. Leicester, Hampshire and Cymru continue to increase margins and profits whilst South West is clearly on the road to recovery.

However, big urban operations like Bristol and South Yorkshire should surely be doing better, whilst Somerset and Avon continues to fall further into loss (not a basket case yet but headed that way.....). The closure of Rotherham should help South Yorkshire's financial performance.

Makes the newness of the fleet at Wells even more puzzling given the underlying FSA financial results.....:roll::roll:

Reinforces the need to invest in fleets in Glasgow and West Yorkshire, though; they provide the lion's share of the profits.

 

[THarris123]

Had time to have a look at Companies House website today. Bearing the above in mind, there are good performances from a number of subsids. Leicester, Hampshire and Cymru continue to increase margins and profits whilst South West is clearly on the road to recovery.

However, big urban operations like Bristol and South Yorkshire should surely be doing better, whilst Somerset and Avon continues to fall further into loss (not a basket case yet but headed that way.....). The closure of Rotherham should help South Yorkshire's financial performance.

Makes the newness of the fleet at Wells even more puzzling given the underlying FSA financial results.....:roll::roll:

Reinforces the need to invest in fleets in Glasgow and West Yorkshire, though; they provide the lion's share of the profits.

Somerset and Avon - the turnover has increased, but operating costs have risen more, supposedly due to increase in staff costs. Those figures are also before 231, 375 and 377 left S&A, so I would expect it to be slightly better after March 16. I expect the losses are more relating to Bath, Bristol and Weston rather than Wells.

 

[baza585]

I expect the losses are more relating to Bath, Bristol and Weston rather than Wells.

Do you have any basis in fact for that statement?

 

[THarris123]

Do you have any basis in fact for that statement?

Well mainly because Wells has 26 vehicles. Bath, Bristol (MH) and Weston are all very much bigger. Wells makes very large profits on 376 and good profits on both 173 and 126. As 375 and 377 are still around, I would assume they were just breaking even and at that time 161 and 174 were also breaking even. Therefore mainly basing it on the services that they operate, I can't hardly think it's mostly to do with Wells. Wells is much much smaller than any of the other depots, so how can it contribute so much of loss exactly?

 

[Robertj21a]

Well mainly because Wells has 26 vehicles. Bath, Bristol (MH) and Weston are all very much bigger. Wells makes very large profits on 376 and good profits on both 173 and 126. As 375 and 377 are still around, I would assume they were just breaking even and at that time 161 and 174 were also breaking even. Therefore mainly basing it on the services that they operate, I can't hardly think it's mostly to do with Wells. Wells is much much smaller than any of the other depots, so how can it contribute so much of loss exactly?

So the answer is NO !

 

[THarris123]

So the answer is NO !

Well the answer is yes - how can the smallest depot by far in S&A be the main maker for a loss? The drivers are the least well paid, half the services are very profitable and the other services back then broke even. All of that is fact, not fiction, so therefore by definition it is a basis of fact.

I'm sure that baza or Robert have much more of an idea than me as to what caused the losses in S&A. Maybe they can provide us with some details behind their accusations?

 

[baza585]

Well the answer is yes - how can the smallest depot by far in S&A be the main maker for a loss? The drivers are the least well paid, half the services are very profitable and the other services back then broke even. All of that is fact, not fiction, so therefore by definition it is a basis of fact.

I'm sure that baza or Robert have much more of an idea than me as to what caused the losses in S&A. Maybe they can provide us with some details behind their accusations?

I didn't accuse anyone of anything.

I merely asked whether you had any basis for your assertion that Wells depot is not the problem leading to such poor results for FSA. I have no real idea why FSA financial performance is so bad; I could speculate but I do not intend to do so without some facts to back up any assertions I make.

For the record, a full size single decker bus full of seated passholders is unlikely to be profitable; because remuneration rates vary, the extent of losses varies between LAs, but I am not aware of any LAs whose remuneration rate is sufficient to make such a service very profitable (your exact words).

I'm just intrigued as to how you can still assert with such confidence that half the services out of Wells depot are very profitable. I merely asked for some facts to back up that and your previous assertions; to date you have provided only one fact, that the drivers at Wells are paid slightly less than at other nearby depots. Unless you have access to the management accounts at FSA, sadly all the rest is speculation on your part.

 

[Robertj21a]

Well the answer is yes - how can the smallest depot by far in S&A be the main maker for a loss? The drivers are the least well paid, half the services are very profitable and the other services back then broke even. All of that is fact, not fiction, so therefore by definition it is a basis of fact.

I'm sure that baza or Robert have much more of an idea than me as to what caused the losses in S&A. Maybe they can provide us with some details behind their accusations?

I was only going to reply to say that you still haven't identified any *facts* - and I see that baza has now said much the same.
In case I'm not making myself clear enough - what evidence is there that 'half the services are very profitable' [I'm not saying they're not, I just need evidence].

 

[THarris123]

I didn't accuse anyone of anything.

I merely asked whether you had any basis for your assertion that Wells depot is not the problem leading to such poor results for FSA. I have no real idea why FSA financial performance is so bad; I could speculate but I do not intend to do so without some facts to back up any assertions I make.

For the record, a full size single decker bus full of seated passholders is unlikely to be profitable; because remuneration rates vary, the extent of losses varies between LAs, but I am not aware of any LAs whose remuneration rate is sufficient to make such a service very profitable (your exact words).

I'm just intrigued as to how you can still assert with such confidence that half the services out of Wells depot are very profitable. I merely asked for some facts to back up that and your previous assertions; to date you have provided only one fact, that the drivers at Wells are paid slightly less than at other nearby depots. Unless you have access to the management accounts at FSA, sadly all the rest is speculation on your part.

I apologise if I got carried away with accusing you of making an accusation about Wells.

I will very much admit that Wells was a contributor towards the losses, but to be a main contributor and have only 26 buses compared to the other bits of S&A is not physically possible.

You did ask for fact and not for evidence. One fact is that Wells are not paid as much as other depots, another is that half of the services they run are profitable with the rest breaking even, unlike some of Baths services which in that year were making a commercial loss - 184 and 231 were scrapped. A driver explained to me that he had picked up over £400 on just two 376 journeys - i can't remember if it was per hour or per day, but I know that a bus has to earn £300-400. 376 is also evidently profitable due to the investment in new deckers in that year and refurbished singles on 173. Wells had lost most of its loss making operations - and 161 to Frome at that time was council funded. 375 and 377 were at that point probably just breaking even, as BoS are still running them.

Also Wells during 15/16 had a fair amount of old stock still - even when the B10s went they wee replaced with B7Ls. The Streetdecks would have contributed to the depreciation admittedly, but would have saved on fuel.

 

[the101]

Quoting what a bus takes on a journey or two is irrelevant if all the money is coming from weekly or return ticket sales because there will be a number of corresponding journeys made by the same passengers where nothing is taken.

Drivers on a service operated by a large operator in north west England were doing £1,200 on two round trips on a Monday morning 15 years ago.

 

[Robertj21a]

I apologise if I got carried away with accusing you of making an accusation about Wells.

I will very much admit that Wells was a contributor towards the losses, but to be a main contributor and have only 26 buses compared to the other bits of S&A is not physically possible.

You did ask for fact and not for evidence. One fact is that Wells are not paid as much as other depots, another is that half of the services they run are profitable with the rest breaking even, unlike some of Baths services which in that year were making a commercial loss - 184 and 231 were scrapped. A driver explained to me that he had picked up over £400 on just two 376 journeys - i can't remember if it was per hour or per day, but I know that a bus has to earn £300-400. 376 is also evidently profitable due to the investment in new deckers in that year and refurbished singles on 173. Wells had lost most of its loss making operations - and 161 to Frome at that time was council funded. 375 and 377 were at that point probably just breaking even, as BoS are still running them.

Also Wells during 15/16 had a fair amount of old stock still - even when the B10s went they wee replaced with B7Ls. The Streetdecks would have contributed to the depreciation admittedly, but would have saved on fuel.

We're really not making any progress are we ?

**HOW** do you know that '.......half the services are profitable'

 

[THarris123]

We're really not making any progress are we ?

**HOW** do you know that '.......half the services are profitable'

Well we are making progress, as I've already explained the following:
a) 376 has had new vehicles in the last year
b) 173, 174 and 126 have/all are receiving refurbished B7s

Bus companies are not allowed to run bus services on a loss - FSW has explained that many times on the forum. I explained that 375 and 377 were breaking even - they moved to BoS in May and are still operating - meaning they aren't loss making.

Usually First invest in new vehicles for profitable services. Therefore when James Freeman was quoted saying that 376 is one of the most profitable services, I would tend to think that 376 is the most profitable.

You do realise with such comments as "we're not getting anywhere", you are giving yourself a reputation for pushing people off the forum (or nearly in my case). I would very much appreciate that if you are going to continuously have a dig at me, you be a little more professional about it, as this forum is in view of the public. There are many people who will back me up on saying that Wells is not the main focus of the losses. You don't need to have all the facts and figures in front of you to work it out either. Maybe you should also try out the Wells services rather than just accusing that I don't know what I'm talking about.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Steve White has updated his First Group Fleetlist as at January 2017.

I usually look at what fleet is Y reg and older (it was acting as a rough estimate for the number of non-DDA vehicles left, but as the DDA deadline has now gone, it shows the age profile a bit of the fleet). So according to his fleetlist for the group the following have vehicles which are Y reg and older (so about 16 years old and older now). Eventually I'm going to get around to looking at fleet which is up to the age of 2003 (53), which I'm personally expecting First to withdraw nearly all of that by the end of 2020.

Vehicles Y reg and older
Aberdeen 8 deckers, 19 singles
Balfron 1 single
Banockburn 2 deckers
Bradford 9 deckers, 7 singles
Bridgend 2 singles
Bath 5 deckers, 2 bendies
Bolton 5 singles
Bridgwater 3 deckers, 2 singles
Bury 4 deckers, 12 singles, 1 bendy
Blantyre 8 deckers
Camborne 25 deckers, 3 singles, 3 coaches
Doncaster 9 singles
Great Yarmouth 10 deckers
Huddersfield 10 deckers, 1 single
Hadleigh 2 singles
Hoeford 4 deckers, 1 single
Hunslet Park 7 singles
Halifax 9 deckers, 9 singles
Caledonia 12 deckers
Bramley 1 decker, 10 singles
Lowestoft 2 deckers
Lawrence Hill 6 deckers
Larbert 3 deckers, 2 singles
Olive Grove 3 deckers, 2 single
Oldham 4 deckers, 5 singles
Overtown 9 singles
Port Talbot 4 singles
Ravenhill 1 single
Rusholme 7 deckers
Scotstoun 1 single
Southampton 6 deckers, 2 single
Taunton 4 singles
Weymouth 3 deckers
Weston 2 deckers
Worcester 2 coaches
York 1 single

In total, 146 deckers, 120 singles, 5 coaches and 3 bendies Y reg and older (total 274).

There's bound to be certain things wrong in this list and there are some older vehicles which are planned to come back into operation (Weymouth for example). I'm sure many people are going to ask what the point of this calculation and post is, but its just to give you a rough estimate of how much old fleet is in the First fleet at the moment. As I say when I have some time, I will have a look at what fleet First have which is 53 reg and older to give more of an idea of the age profile.

I hope some people find this interesting, although I'm sure some will come up with some comments which have been covered/answered before.

 

[Volvodart]

As I say when I have some time, I will have a look at what fleet First have which is 53 reg and older to give more of an idea of the age profile.

The oldest fleet profile is likely to be First Glasgow, where over 25% of its fleet meets this criterion.

 

[Robertj21a]

Well we are making progress, as I've already explained the following:
a) 376 has had new vehicles in the last year
b) 173, 174 and 126 have/all are receiving refurbished B7s

Bus companies are not allowed to run bus services on a loss - FSW has explained that many times on the forum. I explained that 375 and 377 were breaking even - they moved to BoS in May and are still operating - meaning they aren't loss making.

Usually First invest in new vehicles for profitable services. Therefore when James Freeman was quoted saying that 376 is one of the most profitable services, I would tend to think that 376 is the most profitable.

You do realise with such comments as "we're not getting anywhere", you are giving yourself a reputation for pushing people off the forum (or nearly in my case). I would very much appreciate that if you are going to continuously have a dig at me, you be a little more professional about it, as this forum is in view of the public. There are many people who will back me up on saying that Wells is not the main focus of the losses. You don't need to have all the facts and figures in front of you to work it out either. Maybe you should also try out the Wells services rather than just accusing that I don't know what I'm talking about.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sorry if you take it as some sort of personal attack, I'm just trying to see what the *facts* are.

I think I'll just drop the whole question.

 

[THarris123]

The oldest fleet profile is likely to be First Glasgow, where over 25% of its fleet meets this criterion.

I think there's quite a few 51/52 reg Tridents up there, but also quite a lot of 2004 B7TLs. I'll have a look when I get some time.

 

[Volvodart]

A lot of Y reg B10bles and 51/02 B7Ls.

Sent from my Obi MV1 using Tapatalk

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Well we are making progress, as I've already explained the following:
a) 376 has had new vehicles in the last year
b) 173, 174 and 126 have/all are receiving refurbished B7s

Bus companies are not allowed to run bus services on a loss - FSW has explained that many times on the forum. I explained that 375 and 377 were breaking even - they moved to BoS in May and are still operating - meaning they aren't loss making.

Usually First invest in new vehicles for profitable services. Therefore when James Freeman was quoted saying that 376 is one of the most profitable services, I would tend to think that 376 is the most profitable.

You do realise with such comments as "we're not getting anywhere", you are giving yourself a reputation for pushing people off the forum (or nearly in my case). I would very much appreciate that if you are going to continuously have a dig at me, you be a little more professional about it, as this forum is in view of the public. There are many people who will back me up on saying that Wells is not the main focus of the losses. You don't need to have all the facts and figures in front of you to work it out either. Maybe you should also try out the Wells services rather than just accusing that I don't know what I'm talking about.

I've deliberately not commented but I will break with convention!

I do agree that Wells is a relatively small part of First S&A. Therefore it's impact on the overall performance of the business is likely to be consequently small.

Now, as with us all, I don't know how the individual routes perform so this is based purely on experience. Of the three current corridors, the 376 has long been regarded as a good performer hence it receiving regular intakes of new fleet and I'd suspect that the 173/4 is a decent performer. The 126 is more sporadic in my experience and, of course, would've been affected by WB and isn't a pot of gold. In that respect, Mr Harris probably has a valid point - I say probably because we can't say because none of us are party to the P&Ls.

However, I do have to question the logic around the 375/377. Those routes were being attacked by WB37/38 so a comparison to their current position isn't like for like. The 377 was probably the stronger and may have been washing its face. I suspect the 375 was haemorrhaging cash - 3 vehicles carrying next to nothing for much of the day whilst WB were in attendance. It was no surprise to see it withdrawn.

Getting away from the Wells-centricity, there were some other pups that were put down with the 234 being the most obvious. However, without knowing the full details, it is impossible to know what the truth is behind FSAs performance; instinctively it doesn't feel that there's so much duff stuff to outweigh the good and to such an extent.

Btw: I would be surprised if a driver is pulling in £400 an hour in revenue - think about it

 

[GaryMcEwan]

A lot of Y reg B10bles and 51/02 B7Ls.

Sent from my Obi MV1 using Tapatalk

Glasgow are still using W and X reg Tridents along with the solitary T reg Trident (32840). Also they have a lot of 51 plated B10's as well as Blantyre and Dumbarton

The 02, 03 and 53 plated Wright Solars have been inherited from Hutchisons and Midland Bluebird.

 

[Robertj21a]

I've deliberately not commented but I will break with convention!

I do agree that Wells is a relatively small part of First S&A. Therefore it's impact on the overall performance of the business is likely to be consequently small.

Now, as with us all, I don't know how the individual routes perform so this is based purely on experience. Of the three current corridors, the 376 has long been regarded as a good performer hence it receiving regular intakes of new fleet and I'd suspect that the 173/4 is a decent performer. The 126 is more sporadic in my experience and, of course, would've been affected by WB and isn't a pot of gold. In that respect, Mr Harris probably has a valid point - I say probably because we can't say because none of us are party to the P&Ls.

However, I do have to question the logic around the 375/377. Those routes were being attacked by WB37/38 so a comparison to their current position isn't like for like. The 377 was probably the stronger and may have been washing its face. I suspect the 375 was haemorrhaging cash - 3 vehicles carrying next to nothing for much of the day whilst WB were in attendance. It was no surprise to see it withdrawn.

Getting away from the Wells-centricity, there were some other pups that were put down with the 234 being the most obvious. However, without knowing the full details, it is impossible to know what the truth is behind FSAs performance; instinctively it doesn't feel that there's so much duff stuff to outweigh the good and to such an extent.

Btw: I would be surprised if a driver is pulling in £400 an hour in revenue - think about it

Thank you for that further insight. Perhaps the earlier comment from TH could have been better phrased as....... 'I wouldn't be surprised if half the services are profitable' - rather than a specific statement that they were.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Thank you for that further insight. Perhaps the earlier comment from TH could have been better phrased as....... 'I wouldn't be surprised if half the services are profitable' - rather than a specific statement that they were.

Agreed - there was perhaps some phraseology that could've been improved and I'm not innocent of such transgressions myself in the past.

Suffice to say that there are some interesting figures from across the group e.g. Large downturn in Bristol, positive swing in Manchester, etc but the factors behind these? We don't know that detail and so it's almost impossible to contextualise them.

Still, be interesting to know ...and at that point, time for me to foxtrot oscar!