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Stagecoach Minibuses now launched in Ashford

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HY_4273

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This story on the Coach & Bus Week magazine might be of interest to some of you – the latest on Stagecoach's new Mercedes-Benz minibuses: https://cbwmagazine.com/stagecoach-to-launch-little-often-minibuses/
Stagecoach South East is to unveil its new Mercedes-Benz minibus fleet, branded ‘Little & Often,’ early next month, CBW can reveal.
The 30-strong fleet is to be launched at a special event at the McArthur Glen Designer Outlet Centre, Ashford on Saturday, February 11 – with the vehicles set to enter service the following day.
The order for the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter City 45 minibuses, a new type for Stagecoach, was included in the 2016 fleet order, which was announced last April.
Gaz
 
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Bungle965

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This story on the Coach & Bus Week magazine might be of interest to some of you – the latest on Stagecoach's new Mercedes-Benz minibuses: https://cbwmagazine.com/stagecoach-to-launch-little-often-minibuses/

Gaz
Ah interesting, I did wonder where that order would end up, there was talk of Scotland (I think!) with various others being speculated. It was the part of the order that did seem peculiar when it was announced.
Sam

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overthewater

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Back to the 1980s :D I would not rule out Scotland gettig some for certain routes.
 

Bletchleyite

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The advantage of these particular ones is that they are 17 seaters, meaning D1 to drive them rather than D, making the drivers somewhat cheaper, no doubt, than regular bus drivers as they are easier to train, a minibus not being light years different to drive than many large MPVs, 4x4s and the likes. (I've driven a full size 3500kg Sprinter minibus downseated permanently to 9 seats to avoid the need for D1, and it drove not dissimilarly to my present LWB Land Rover Defender).

That said, could the low capacity cause issues? I wonder if some kind of app involving reserved places and app-based payment could be used to mitigate this?
 

Bungle965

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The advantage of these particular ones is that they are 17 seaters, meaning D1 to drive them rather than D, making the drivers somewhat cheaper, no doubt, than regular bus drivers as they are easier to train, a minibus not being light years different to drive than many large MPVs, 4x4s and the likes. (I've driven a full size 3500kg Sprinter minibus downseated permanently to 9 seats to avoid the need for D1, and it drove not dissimilarly to my present LWB Land Rover Defender).

That said, could the low capacity cause issues? I wonder if some kind of app involving reserved places and app-based payment could be used to mitigate this?

I would have hoped that Stagecoach would have looked into the average passenger loading on journey and come to the conclusion that the services that the Sprinters will run won't under normal circumstances exceed the maximum load of the minibus.

Stagecoach using a minibus on routes means that they will hopefully not be culled as a result of not being able to adequately fill the next smallest buses.
Sam
 

Bungle965

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So do we know which routes these might be used on yet?

From their website
From Sunday 12 February, we’re launching a high-spec minibus service, branded ‘Little & Often’, which will provide buses every 5 or 6 minutes along routes serving the hospital, town centre/rail station, Kennington and Park Farm. At the same time as the new buses hit the road there will be a shake-up of the bus routes and timetables in the town – full details are shown below.
https://www.stagecoachbus.com/servi...rticle?SituationId=ID-23/01/2017-11:31:55:432
Sam
 

radamfi

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I would have hoped that Stagecoach would have looked into the average passenger loading on journey and come to the conclusion that the services that the Sprinters will run won't under normal circumstances exceed the maximum load of the minibus.

In the heyday of high frequency minibus operation in the 80s/early 90s, it wasn't unusual to have to wait for the next bus due to a full bus, but that was considered to be a price worth paying for having a frequent service.

This is obviously an interesting development. But this type of operation was abandoned in the mid 90s, so why is it now suddenly a good idea again?

I was an avid follower of the minibus revolution in south Manchester with Bee Line opening up route after route during 1987, followed by retaliation from GM Buses with their "Little Gem" minibuses. Bee Line started running every 5 minutes and every 15 evening and Sunday, like what Stagecoach are about to do. It seemed too good to be true and after a while, headways widened to every 7 then every 10 before the sale to Ribble, which was basically the end.
 

Busaholic

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Just a thought - is there anyone still working at management level in Stagecoach who worked with Harry Bundred in Exeter?
 

radamfi

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Just a thought - is there anyone still working at management level in Stagecoach who worked with Harry Bundred in Exeter?

Even Transit Holdings were starting to get rid of minibuses before the sale to Stagecoach. In Oxford they had already replaced a lot of their dual-door door minibuses with dual-door Darts before the sale to Stagecoach.
 

Bungle965

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In the heyday of high frequency minibus operation in the 80s/early 90s, it wasn't unusual to have to wait for the next bus due to a full bus, but that was considered to be a price worth paying for having a frequent service.

This is obviously an interesting development. But this type of operation was abandoned in the mid 90s, so why is it now suddenly a good idea again?

I was an avid follower of the minibus revolution in south Manchester with Bee Line opening up route after route during 1987, followed by retaliation from GM Buses with their "Little Gem" minibuses. Bee Line started running every 5 minutes and every 15 evening and Sunday, like what Stagecoach are about to do. It seemed too good to be true and after a while, headways widened to every 7 then every 10 before the sale to Ribble, which was basically the end.

Forgive me I seem to have become a little confused, I thought that these were running on rural services not town ones. Nevertheless it is certainly an interesting move by Stagecoach.
Sam
 

radamfi

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Forgive me I seem to have become a little confused, I thought that these were running on rural services not town ones. Nevertheless it is certainly an interesting move by Stagecoach.

What rural services would be viable at a 5/6 minute frequency?! Actually in the 80s/early 90s it was quite normal for town services to be run by minibuses and out of town routes run to be run by full size buses.
 

Bungle965

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What rural services would be viable at a 5/6 minute frequency?! Actually in the 80s/early 90s it was quite normal for town services to be run by minibuses and out of town routes run to be run by full size buses.

No, I meant at a much lower frequency but as I have now realized the amount of minibuses ordered does not stack up for that.
Apologies.
As a side note how many of those routes operated by GM Buses and Bee Line still survive today?
The branding of `Little Gem` has recently started up again by Go Goodwins as a way to signify divison between their coach and bus fleet.
Sam
 
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Bletchleyite

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This is obviously an interesting development. But this type of operation was abandoned in the mid 90s, so why is it now suddenly a good idea again?

Exactly my thought. Obviously only requiring D1 rather than D will save money on drivers, but that won't be *that* significant, and they'll need rather more drivers for that sort of frequency.

Could the real saving be 30ish MPG rather than mid single figures, perhaps? Fuel is certainly much pricier than it was.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Exactly my thought. Obviously only requiring D1 rather than D will save money on drivers, but that won't be *that* significant, and they'll need rather more drivers for that sort of frequency.

Could the real saving be 30ish MPG rather than mid single figures, perhaps? Fuel is certainly much pricier than it was.

There are a number of reasons why.

  • Purchase price
  • Availability of spares - less downtime
  • Cost of spares
  • Driver costs
  • Fuel costs - that said, the comparison isn't as pronounced as the headline 30 mpg is unladen and on average work not urban grind

Now the gamble is that the increased frequency will attract more passengers (who may well be fare payers) and that this will grow the market and offset the additional cost in driver costs.

Think it's a really interesting move by Stagecoach. Think they should be applauded for it - at least they're trying to grow the market.

Of course, if history is to repeat itself, cue a load of miserable enthusiasts complaining about the loss of Dennis Darts (rather than Bristol VRs or Leyland Nationals) in favour of "bread vans" ;)
 

Busaholic

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There are a number of reasons why.

  • Purchase price
  • Availability of spares - less downtime
  • Cost of spares
  • Driver costs
  • Fuel costs - that said, the comparison isn't as pronounced as the headline 30 mpg is unladen and on average work not urban grind

Now the gamble is that the increased frequency will attract more passengers (who may well be fare payers) and that this will grow the market and offset the additional cost in driver costs.

Think it's a really interesting move by Stagecoach. Think they should be applauded for it - at least they're trying to grow the market.

Of course, if history is to repeat itself, cue a load of miserable enthusiasts complaining about the loss of Dennis Darts (rather than Bristol VRs or Leyland Nationals) in favour of "bread vans" ;)

It all goes to show there is nothing new under the sun.

I would have thought purchase price would have been the main factor. As 'big buses' require ever more sophisticated features, and anything other than a diesel engine is going to be a lot more expensive, this could be a move back to basics. Staff costs will be more, but the possible extra revenue could allay these, and if the experiment doesn't work out, those extra staff can soon be disposed of!

I'd like to think the experiment will work. Stagecoach seem to be working hard in that part of the world to not just keep services running but try new initiatives, where traffic congestion allows.
 

Bletchleyite

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Of course, if history is to repeat itself, cue a load of miserable enthusiasts complaining about the loss of Dennis Darts (rather than Bristol VRs or Leyland Nationals) in favour of "bread vans" ;)

It appears from the few photos of the buses out there that they have gone for the idea of quality as well - high backed leather seating - and they are also low floor and wheelchair accessible (which isn't legally required for an all-seater 17 seater minibus).

http://www.kentonline.co.uk/ashford/news/minibuses-set-to-launch-in-119372/ has more and a couple of photos.
 

Hophead

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These smaller vehicles may be able to gain easier access to Ashford's many new housing estates. They should certainly be able to cope with parked cars and tight turns better than an E20D. Full-size buses are unpopular with a vocal minority, so this scheme takes away that argument.

No idea whether any of the above applies here, just some thoughts.
 
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Exactly my thought. Obviously only requiring D1 rather than D will save money on drivers, but that won't be *that* significant, and they'll need rather more drivers for that sort of frequency.

Could the real saving be 30ish MPG rather than mid single figures, perhaps? Fuel is certainly much pricier than it was.

also given that 'grandfather rights D1 is 'not for hire or reward' = although i did hear some rumour that somehow driver CPC would remove that restriction .

and that the youngest grandfather rights holders of C1 and D1 are in their late 30s now ... Potentially you are faced with havign to train the drivers anyway
 

Bletchleyite

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D1 101 would indeed be no use, but it's much quicker and therefore cheaper to train someone to drive what is basically a big van.


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In the heyday of high frequency minibus operation in the 80s/early 90s, it wasn't unusual to have to wait for the next bus due to a full bus, but that was considered to be a price worth paying for having a frequent service.

This is obviously an interesting development. But this type of operation was abandoned in the mid 90s, so why is it now suddenly a good idea again?

It was abandoned in many areas (or loadings increased so it was worth putting bigger buses on again).

Some areas cling on - Notably Halifax with TJ Walsh's:

300 (recently dropped to) every 15 minutes to Sowerby
525 every 8 minutes to Ovenden (no afternoon service)
600 every 10 minutes to Ovenden
700 every 10 minutes to Illingworth

They run a few less frequent services, mostly under contract, but have only just finished upgrading from Breadvans (a family member sold them a low mileage Transit van which had been converted from a minibus for spares).
 

Andyh82

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It was abandoned in many areas (or loadings increased so it was worth putting bigger buses on again).

Some areas cling on - Notably Halifax with TJ Walsh's:

300 (recently dropped to) every 15 minutes to Sowerby
525 every 8 minutes to Ovenden (no afternoon service)
600 every 10 minutes to Ovenden
700 every 10 minutes to Illingworth

They run a few less frequent services, mostly under contract, but have only just finished upgrading from Breadvans (a family member sold them a low mileage Transit van which had been converted from a minibus for spares).

And even then some are still a modern version of a breadvan, some fairly new DDA exempt welfare style minibuses.
 

Bletchleyite

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And even then some are still a modern version of a breadvan, some fairly new DDA exempt welfare style minibuses.

What's interesting (and positive) is that while these vehicles don't legally have to be DDA compliant as they are too small for that requirement, they nonetheless are compliant.

That means a significant increase in capacity for wheelchair passengers over a larger bus with one wheelchair bay on a lower frequency.
 

the101

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The advantage of these particular ones is that they are 17 seaters, meaning D1 to drive them rather than D...
Would be wrong.

D1 goes up to 16 passenger seats. These, according to a press report when the order was placed, are definitely 17 seaters and so a category D will be required.
 

Busaholic

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Would be wrong.

D1 goes up to 16 passenger seats. These, according to a press report when the order was placed, are definitely 17 seaters and so a category D will be required.

Or a seat could be removed?
 
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Would be wrong.

D1 goes up to 16 passenger seats. These, according to a press report when the order was placed, are definitely 17 seaters and so a category D will be required.

a '17 seat ' minibus physically has 17 seats in it , d1 allows you to carry 16 passengers ...
 

Busaholic

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a '17 seat ' minibus physically has 17 seats in it , d1 allows you to carry 16 passengers ...

Am I missing something? If you permanently remove a seat from a '17 seat minibus' it becomes a '16 seat minibus' - or, perhaps it doesn't under Construction and Use, or whatever it's called now. Please clarify.
 

Bletchleyite

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Would be wrong.

D1 goes up to 16 passenger seats. These, according to a press report when the order was placed, are definitely 17 seaters and so a category D will be required.

What is usually described as a "17 seater minibus" (D1) has 16 passenger seats plus one seat for the driver.

Do these minibuses definitely have 17 passenger seats? This would seem a very odd choice if so.
 
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