Is Pensioner free travel forcing up prices?

[pemma]

So the bus will have to have two doors , one for locals and one for visitors ?

Perhaps the driver can get out , check who is who and sort them out in order and arrange who gets on first.

Still can't see it working .


Graham

Why two doors? The second group could board through the same door after the first group has finished boarding, with two separate waiting areas.

Anyway that's not my idea. Personally I would prefer to see a scheme where pensioners are offered free travel on any form of local transport in their immediate local area only (but not automatically ending at council boundaries like under the old scheme.) Why should a pensioner who lives in a village with a train service and no bus service have to pay to get to the nearest dental surgery, while other pensioners spend the whole day travelling around on bus services for free for no real purpose other than to enjoy the scenery and to talk to other passengers?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Anyway that's not my idea. Personally I would prefer to see a scheme where pensioners are offered free travel on any form of local transport in their immediate local area only (but not automatically ending at council boundaries like under the old scheme.) Why should a pensioner who lives in a village with a train service and no bus service have to pay to get to the nearest dental surgery, while other pensioners spend the whole day travelling around on bus services for free for no real purpose other than to enjoy the scenery and to talk to other passengers?

For the same reason that you think it acceptable for the council tax payers of cornwall to fund your travel whilst you are on holiday?

 

[pemma]

For the same reason that you think it acceptable for the council tax payers of cornwall to fund your travel whilst you are on holiday?

You're confusing me with AM9. He referred to his entitlement to travel for free on holiday in Cornwall because of his age and said he would have gone to Wales or Scotland if he hadn't been able to use ENCTS. To which I responded

So if the hotel you had stayed at in Cornwall had costed £5pppn more, would you have gone to Scotland or Wales instead?

If not then wouldn't an adequate solution be a £5 day ticket for all bus operators in the area?

Or alternatively a £5pppn tax on hotel stays and as a result of the tax you get given all day bus tickets for your stay without paying any extra? (I believe the Swiss have similar schemes to get tourists to use public transport.)

i.e. my idea is the tourists indirectly pay for tourist passes to be used on public transport.

As I've already said I'm not over 60.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

You're confusing me with AM9...As I've already said I'm not over 60.

My apologies

 

[graham11]

Ah well .

It`s always people under the age who complain about the pensioners passes.

Reminds me of when I was very young and teenagers said they didn`t want to reach the old age of 40.
They didn`t say it when they were 39 !!
When you under 60s retire . living on a little pension and can`t drive any longer you will be pleased to get a free pass .

Graham

 

[pemma]

Ah well .

It's always people under the age who complain about the pensioners passes.

Reminds me of when I was very young and teenagers said they didn't want to reach the old age of 40.
They didn't say it when they were 39 !!
When you under 60s retire . living on a little pension and can't drive any longer you will be pleased to get a free pass .

Graham

Presuming there's any bus services left by then!

What I suggested about making it valid for local trips on any form of transport would be a fairer solution. However, not everyone wants a fair solution because for some people it would involve them getting a smaller slice of cake.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Ah well .

It's always people under the age who complain about the pensioners passes.

Reminds me of when I was very young and teenagers said they didn't want to reach the old age of 40.
They didn't say it when they were 39 !!
When you under 60s retire . living on a little pension and can't drive any longer you will be pleased to get a free pass .

Graham

hmmm I think that's a rather simplistic view... especially considering the recent reports that the over 60's now enjoy a higher standard of living than most working age people... and that those in their 30's and 40's now with no inheritance to look forward can NEVER hope to enjoy such a standard of living as being experienced by current pensioners... I'm a believer in the welfare state... but how can you justify a system that allows a pensioner who has a high income to have "freebies" such as concessionary passes when a single mother struggling to bring up 3 kids, holding down 2 jobs at minimum wage is expected to pay full fare... and even to pay, through their taxes, for the same well off pensioners to have jolly days out for free?

the truth is that the current system is not only underfunded it is blatently unfair and inequitable...

 

[Tetchytyke]

Ah well .

It's always people under the age who complain about the pensioners passes.

"Man who gets free stuff is in favour of scheme giving him stuff for free."

Pensioners have a better standard of living and more disposable income than people my age. Yet they get to swan around on buses for free and I've just had to pay £2.80 each way to go to the dentist. And I've seen evening and Sunday buses disappear to pay for it. Damn right I'm against ENCTS. Its not jealousy- ten years ago ENCTS didn't exist. It's that it is unaffordable and inequitable.

But you get your free pass so, naturally, you see nothing wrong with the scheme. So it goes.

 

[Tetchytyke]

One change I'd definitely make to ENCTS is to change the rules so it is only provided to people who have either voluntarily or due to health reasons relinquished their driving licence. Keep your driving licence and you don't get free bus travel. After all, that's the stated aim of the scheme isn't it, helping pensioners and disabled people who can't drive?

 

[ashworth]

So the bus will have to have two doors , one for locals and one for visitors ?

Perhaps the driver can get out , check who is who and sort them out in order and arrange who gets on first.

Still can't see it working .

Could there please be a third door, leading to an area of luxury seating, for those of us who actually pay for our journey.

Whenever, I board my local bus, especially mid mornings, I think I'm usually the only person who is actually paying, and yet the Concessionary pass holders usually almost knock me over as they rush for the door to get on first and sit in their usual seats near the front with their shopping trolleys. As I live in a relatively small village, I do know them all, and can actually laugh about it. However, I do seem to be the only one paying an extortionate fare for the short journey into my local town.

I don't begrudge them getting their free Concessionary passes, but as I'm now 60, and I am not eligible for my bus pass until I'm 66, I do wonder in 6 years time what sort of concessionary travel I will actually get. To be quite honest I would be quite a happy to be able to just travel at a reduced rate as long as it's still on a national basis.

 

[Busaholic]

One change I'd definitely make to ENCTS is to change the rules so it is only provided to people who have either voluntarily or due to health reasons relinquished their driving licence. Keep your driving licence and you don't get free bus travel. After all, that's the stated aim of the scheme isn't it, helping pensioners and disabled people who can't drive?

Please provide the reference to the stated aim of the scheme, or is it a figment of your imagination like the £7 billion cost of the scheme, actually £1.2 billion as you later admitted? This is getting rather like the Boris and co's falsification of the costs of EU membership and the supposed amounts which would flow to the UK treasury and would be immediately used on boosting the NHS etc. It doesn't matter that the major opponents of the scheme may have been Remainers like Nick Clegg and sections of the LibDem Party, the idea that pensioners are leaving their £5 million homes in Poole to swan around on the buses all day is a fantasy that even Donald Trump might feel reluctant to voice.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

....This is getting rather like the Boris and co's falsification of the costs of EU membership and the supposed amounts which would flow to the UK treasury and would be immediately used on boosting the NHS etc. It doesn't matter that the major opponents of the scheme may have been Remainers like Nick Clegg and sections of the LibDem Party, the idea that pensioners are leaving their £5 million homes in Poole to swan around on the buses all day is a fantasy that even Donald Trump might feel reluctant to voice.

let's not get into a Brexit debate.. this is neither the time NOR the place... and BOTH sides were guilty of telling pork pies that Melton Mowbray would be proud of... remember the claim that our economy would fall into the abyss within 24hrs?

As to your conttention that millionaire pensioners WON'T go swanning about on the buses... well that's hardly the point is it? the point is they CAN if they want to... whilst working people who are forced to go to food banks just to survive are entitled to no help with travel cost NIL NADA.... much in the same way that elderly people who not only own a comfy home but a nice villa in Spain where they sit out the winter are entitled to winter fuel payments whereas single mothers who have to sit through our miserable winters shivering with their kids wearing overcoats at the dinner table get nil help

whatever your political persuasion there is no justification or argument that can deem an un means tested benefit as being fair and equitable!

 

[Tetchytyke]

the idea that pensioners are leaving their £5 million homes in Poole to swan around on the buses all day is a fantasy that even Donald Trump might feel reluctant to voice.

That isn't what I said. What I said was that the system is inequitable because the wealthy are getting bus travel paid for by the poor. The bloke at the food bank doesn't get free travel unless, as has happened with First, the bus company offers it as a charitable gesture.

We're constantly told ENCTS is a "lifeline" for "people who couldn't get out otherwise". Fine, I'm sure it is. And to make sure, we'll have a bit of quid pro quo. You don't get a pass unless you can't drive, just as happens already for working age people.

As for the £7bn, I corrected myself and showed where previously I'd used the correct figure. But I'm sure you've never remembered something incorrectly.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I was told by a driver on the Oswestry to Shrewsbury route ( route 70 ) that Arrive in that area received a fixed sum for every free travel .
This was why when I got on the driver didn't ask the destination but just issued a ticket , the destination not recorded.

He said that the bus company received 60p for each traveller .

If this is the case then surely if the bus has lots of 60p fares this is better than having none .
The maths is simple :
Say 10 passengers at 60p = £6.00
0 passengers at 60p == £ 0
People who claim that if pensioners were not given the subsidy the bus company would be better off !

The problem is most of the customers wouldn't go at all and the company wouldn't even get the many 60p s.

Is my logic correct,

Graham

What if 10 full fare passengers (of let's say £4.50) are left behind because the bus is full of free pass holders ?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Is it not the case than an ENCTS pass gives travel concessions all over England, rather than just in the issuing area of the pass?

Don't many local authorities give their pensioners a better deal in their local area though with locally issued passes being valid before 09:30 and also valid on local rail and ferry services ?

 

[johnnychips]

What if 10 full fare passengers (of let's say £4.50) are left behind because the bus is full of free pass holders ?

I would suggest this is very unlikely unless you have any real life examples.

 

[AM9]

Don't many local authorities give their pensioners a better deal in their local area though with locally issued passes being valid before 09:30 and also valid on local rail and ferry services ?

Yes that's true for Herts.. London and I beleive some othere PTEs give better than that allowing for train travel within the area. It's all part of getting people out of their homes but not into cars when anywhere near built-up areas.

 

[AM9]

I would suggest this is very unlikely unless you have any real life examples.

But unless passengers have actually commited to travel on a particular bus then they are just passengers and take their place in the queue.

 

[PeterC]

Don't many local authorities give their pensioners a better deal in their local area though with locally issued passes being valid before 09:30 and also valid on local rail and ferry services ?

For free rail travel only if you define "many" as a very small number. 9am start is quite common though.

 

[AM9]

You're confusing me with AM9. He referred to his entitlement to travel for free on holiday in Cornwall because of his age and said he would have gone to Wales or Scotland if he hadn't been able to use ENCTS. ...

Actually I didn't say that I would have gone to Wales or Scotland, I said:

Without the facility of trouble-free bus travel, I may have gone to Scotland or Wales for a break.

I am not particularly cost sensitive on holidays, I go away to enjoy myself. The convenience of a pass, especially not having to care about its expiration is worth more to me than the cost saving. The statement was more to reflect the possible impact on pass holders who do put cost above all else deciding to take their business elsewhere.

In practice, I have had very little travel on the pass outside the Hemel-St Albans-Hatfield and Harpenden-St Albans-Watford corridors. When I'm in London on a Travelcard, I show that on buses rather than use the pass.
When I was on holiday in Cornwall, I bought Ride Cornwall Rangers for those days that I travelled around, the only journey on the pass was on a non-first bus in Bodmin that didn't accept the Ranger ticket.
[slightly OT warning = but relevant] All this talk about unfair treatment of working people and the privileged baby boomers is pointless. The bottom line is that this age group is listened to by governments because they vote. Given the result of the referendum, I would think that younger voters are beginning to learn how important voting is so that their interests are served. I genuinely hope that they do address that soon. Also, see my words in post #169. [/slightly OT warning]

 

[graham11]

The idea of only giving bus passes to people who either don`t drive or are prepared to give up their motorcars is unreasonable.

Somebody mentioned "well off " pensioners getting the benefit of the pass but a single mother , working and having children have to pay full fares,
Those mothers get housing benefit and child allowances etc

I am begrudged my bus pass but I have never begrudged my taxes being used to help pay for other peoples children .

Perhaps a good compromise would be a yearly fee of say £20 for the pass .With the millions of pensioners paying that it would bring in a large sum to offset the cost of the pass.

Graham

 

[AM9]

For free rail travel only if you define "many" as a very small number. 9am start is quite common though.

Given that about half of all bus journeys in the UK/England are within the TfL area, it is reasonable to assume that a similar proportion of national free pass journeys are made there on both Freedom passes and 60+ Oyster cards, and that would be a number well within anybody's definition of 'many' for London alone.

 

[AM9]

The idea of only giving bus passes to people who either don't drive or are prepared to give up their motorcars is unreasonable.

Somebody mentioned "well off " pensioners getting the benefit of the pass but a single mother , working and having children have to pay full fares,
Those mothers get housing benefit and child allowances etc

I am begrudged my bus pass but I have never begrudged my taxes being used to help pay for other peoples children .

Perhaps a good compromise would be a yearly fee of say £20 for the pass .With the millions of pensioners paying that it would bring in a large sum to offset the cost of the pass.

Graham

That wouldn't satify the envy of some because the average usage of each ENCTS pass is said to be well in excess of that. If I had to pay £20 for mine, I would factor that into each decision to use the card and probably make more journeys using it. I believe that many other holders would do the same so the overall value of free travel would rise and those complaining would see fewer empty seats on the buses. Conversely, there are many pass holders who rarely use them and are criticised by younger people because the cost of issuing their ITSO passes is a waste. It's all part of the current culture to blame everything on baby boomers.
On a similar (slightly OT) note, I have a swimming pass which gives me unlimited access for an annual cost of £99, (it currently costs over £4 per session). I deliberately chose that to encourage me to swim more often.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The idea of only giving bus passes to people who either don't drive or are prepared to give up their motorcars is unreasonable.

Why?

Somebody mentioned "well off " pensioners getting the benefit of the pass but a single mother , working and having children have to pay full fares,
Those mothers get housing benefit and child allowances etc

And poor pensioners also get housing benefit, council tax benefit and pension credit on top of the state pension.

On top of that, benefit cuts have only targeted working age people. As AM9 points out, this is because pensioners win elections (as an aside, it's as much about demographics and sheer numbers as voting proportions, given the ageing population).

But we're talking about buses here.

ENCTS was brought in as an uncosted and unaffordable electoral bribe by Brown. It needs to be abolished as such. Never mind "I paid in for this", because you didn't, as the scheme didn't exist ten years ago.

 

[pemma]

ENCTS was brought in as an uncosted and unaffordable electoral bribe by Brown. It needs to be abolished as such. Never mind "I paid in for this", because you didn't, as the scheme didn't exist ten years ago.

Prior to ENCTS there were individual council schemes with some councils deciding bus pass use ended at the council boundary and others deciding that as long as the journey started or ended in the council area the older person was resident in that it was OK. Then there was the issue of not all council boroughs being the same size. Brown probably thought he was solving those problems by introducing ENCTS.

 

[pemma]

We're constantly told ENCTS is a "lifeline" for "people who couldn't get out otherwise". Fine, I'm sure it is. And to make sure, we'll have a bit of quid pro quo. You don't get a pass unless you can't drive, just as happens already for working age people.

I'm not sure it is. I don't think having a medical condition which makes you unfit to drive automatically entitles you to a disabled person's bus pass.

 

[pemma]

but how can you justify a system that allows a pensioner who has a high income to have "freebies" such as concessionary passes when a single mother struggling to bring up 3 kids, holding down 2 jobs at minimum wage is expected to pay full fare... and even to pay, through their taxes, for the same well off pensioners to have jolly days out for free?

the truth is that the current system is not only underfunded it is blatently unfair and inequitable...

The reality is if you asked someone to come up with a system which is fair and equitable some people would object it's not fair.

Just looking at the example you gave - a single person struggling to make ends meet could say it's unfair that the woman who has chosen to have children gets child tax credits and that they have to pay taxes which help to support her.

Then it could be the 3 children are triplets or 2 of them are twins and the woman didn't plan to have so many children.

It's the same with out of work benefits. The person who bought a brand new car or a house 6 months before losing their job can get more out of work benefits than the person who saved up but hasn't yet made the purchase, so you could argue the system penalises you for not spontaneously making big purchases.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Brown probably thought he was solving those problems by introducing ENCTS.

Most concessionary schemes before ENCTS didn't provide for free travel for pensioners. There was a brief time when there was a hybrid system of free travel, but only in the local area, but predominantly in history pensioners have had to pay for their bus travel, albeit at a reduced rate.

I would fully support pensioners getting a reduced rate- up here the flat fare used to be 30p, so I'd suggest 50p taking into account inflation- and limiting it to their local area. The scheme is unaffordable. Perhaps it should be affordable, but the simple fact is that it isn't, as both operators and councils are repeatedly stating.

My issue with ENCTS remains that it is giving money to people who can afford to pay, to travel on buses that would commercially operate regardless. Anyone who doesn't live on a commercial bus route loses out. Look at Cumbria: most rural and evening buses have now gone, because all the cash goes on pensioners having a jolly day out on the 555. It's unsustainable.

All this talk of "jealousy" hides the true fact that the scheme was not costed and funded properly, has never been costed and funded properly, and never will be costed and funded properly. But of course people like graham11 will whinge that anyone who is against it is merely jealous, because it avoids them having to engage with the real issues and the real costs and consequences of the scheme.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's the same with out of work benefits. The person who bought a brand new car or a house 6 months before losing their job can get more out of work benefits than the person who saved up but hasn't yet made the purchase, so you could argue the system penalises you for not spontaneously making big purchases.

Now this is so off topic as to probably need a separate topic, but that is simply not true.

If you are in rented accommodation you can get housing benefit immediately. If you own your own house then you can get some help towards the interest charged on a mortgage (but not the capital)- known as ISMI- but there is a waiting period of 39 weeks. If you are of working age then ISMI payments are limited to a maximum of two years' payment. If you are of pension age, however, then the payments are not time limited (though yes, pensioners are less likely to have a mortgage).

Poor pensioners have access to most benefits that working age people do, including housing benefit and council tax benefit. For the latter, the payment for council tax benefit is actually higher if you are a pensioner, as the government specifies 100% payment for poor pensioners but specifically doesn't for poor people of working age. For housing benefit, if you are single and aged under 35 then the maximum payment is the amount it would cost to rent a room in a shared house. If you're a single pensioner, there is no such restriction. The whole system is stacked in favour of pensioners, which is why the overwhelming majority of the social welfare budget actually goes to pensioners.

You don't get any help from the benefits system for any existing debts, including cars on hire purchase or other types of loan agreement. If you can't pay, they take it away.

 

[pemma]

Now this is so off topic as to probably need a separate topic, but that is simply not true.

If you are in rented accommodation you can get housing benefit immediately. If you own your own house then you can get some help towards the interest charged on a mortgage (but not the capital)- known as ISMI- but there is a waiting period of 39 weeks. If you are of working age then ISMI payments are limited to a maximum of two years' payment. If you are of pension age, however, then the payments are not time limited (though yes, pensioners are less likely to have a mortgage).

£16,000 in savings excludes you from getting most benefits (except for c.£70 a week in contribution based JSA for a maximum of 26 weeks) so if you have £25,000 in savings which you intend to use as a house deposit and fail to find work within 26 weeks then you get nothing in following weeks, while £70 is unlikely to cover your rent and living expenses for the first 26 weeks.