Is Pensioner free travel forcing up prices?

[pemma]

Most concessionary schemes before ENCTS didn't provide for free travel for pensioners. There was a brief time when there was a hybrid system of free travel, but only in the local area, but predominantly in history pensioners have had to pay for their bus travel, albeit at a reduced rate.

In the former Macclesfield borough I'm aware pre-ENCTS the scheme was over 60s got offered a choice of:
1. Free senior railcard.
2. Free bus pass.

If they chose the latter they got free bus travel on journeys starting and ending in the borough (with an exception of pre-09:30 on weekdays.) So if they got on the Macclesfield to Manchester bus in Macclesfield they could stay on until Manchester without paying but if they broke their journey in Cheadle they then had to pay for the Cheadle-Manchester leg or go back south to Handforth and then travel north to Manchester.

I'm not sure how long the pre-ENCTS scheme ran for.

 

[Tetchytyke]

£16,000 in savings excludes you from getting most benefits

It's not quite as simple as that. £16k+ savings excludes you entirely, but any amount over £6k gives you a "deemed income" that reduces your benefit entitlement. This deemed income also applies to pensioners but- quelle surprise- at a more preferential rate.

You're right in saying that if you splurge all your savings on the house/car just before you become unemployed then you may get more benefits, as you won't have the effect of this deemed income. But also bear in mind that it depends what you bought and when you bought it: if the DWP think you've deliberately got rid of savings then they can take it into account regardless.

 

[radamfi]

All this talk of "jealousy"

Calling someone "jealous" seems to be a catch all response now to any injustice. No matter how wrong something is, if you are jealous about it, that makes it OK.

The top priority is to make public transport services as attractive as possible so that as many people as possible leave their cars at home. (Note, I don't just say "bus". I mean local public transport as a whole). It is hard to see how this free travel scheme achieves that given that the people who the scheme is aimed at are less likely to be driving compared to most of the population.

Offering free travel to pensioners doesn't make England more civilised than other countries. In the Netherlands for example, over 65s only get 34% off (although it is 34% off bus, tram and metro, not just bus) and it is hard to argue that England is more civilised than the Netherlands!

 

[graham11]

Arctic Troll.

To suggest that I am whinging and accuse people of being Jealous , a word that I never used , is somewhat unfair,

Just trying to be a "devil`s advocate" and try to see both sides of a discussion does not mean I am whinging.

I certainly see all sides and as I stated would be quite happy to pay part costs.
It seems to me the other way round that many people seem Jealous ___ there I have used the word here ----of what pensioners get. .

I also agree with you that a large part of benefits go to the pensioners but what is the alternative ?

Perhaps some of the huge amounts wasted by goverments and councils could be better spent.

 

[Pigalle]

I would suggest this is very unlikely unless you have any real life examples.

Until Nottingham City Council refused to pay for passes on the Red Arrow out of Nottingham this was a regular occurrence for passengers travelling towards Derby waiting to board at QMC in the evening peak on Wednesdays when the Theater Royal / Royal Concert Hall had a matinee on. Quite often the bus would be leaving passengers behind at Parliament Street as well.

 

[Robertj21a]

Until Nottingham City Council refused to pay for passes on the Red Arrow out of Nottingham this was a regular occurrence for passengers travelling towards Derby waiting to board at QMC in the evening peak on Wednesdays when the Theater Royal / Royal Concert Hall had a matinee on. Quite often the bus would be leaving passengers behind at Parliament Street as well.

ENCTS passes are no longer valid on any Red Arrow leaving Nottingham.

 

[pemma]

What if 10 full fare passengers (of let's say £4.50) are left behind because the bus is full of free pass holders ?

I would suggest this is very unlikely unless you have any real life examples.

I've seen the first Arriva Scarborough-Whitby service after 09:30 leave with paying passengers standing due to the number of over 60s travelling. As I've only seen it a couple of times it's possible on a different day it could leave someone behind but regardless of whether anyone was left behind it's a long way to stand to Robin Hoods Bay (where some people get off) which may cause fare paying passengers to stop using the bus.

 

[Bookd]

I benefit from the London freedom pass, which is much more beneficial than other areas, and also applies as a bus pass outside London. London has had similar benefits for many years which I have always paid for through my Council Tax or rates, and I do not feel at all guilty now that it is my turn to collect.
TfL also give free or discounted travel to under 15s, students, apprentices, war veterans and the disabled (and maybe others)- taking these with staff passes I wonder if many people need to pay at all!

I understand that tourist areas may lose out on pensioner travel; in theory it would be easy to charge the passenger's residential area, but this this would need a standardised charge back rate. Since the scheme was introduced technology has moved forward - think of touch and pay credit cards. If pensioners permit cards were set up as, effectively, t/p debit cards then they could automatically credit the bus company and debit the home authority.
The drawback is that all existing cards would need to be replaced as would all of the card readers, which would be very expensive and logistically a nightmare.

 

[ivanhoe]

Calling someone "jealous" seems to be a catch all response now to any injustice. No matter how wrong something is, if you are jealous about it, that makes it OK.

The top priority is to make public transport services as attractive as possible so that as many people as possible leave their cars at home. (Note, I don't just say "bus". I mean local public transport as a whole). It is hard to see how this free travel scheme achieves that given that the people who the scheme is aimed at are less likely to be driving compared to most of the population.

Offering free travel to pensioners doesn't make England more civilised than other countries. In the Netherlands for example, over 65s only get 34% off (although it is 34% off bus, tram and metro, not just bus) and it is hard to argue that England is more civilised than the Netherlands!

I agree with the principles outlined in your post but would add that the Netherlands probably pay a higher state pension.I think that you have to add all the benefits together to make a meaningful analysis. As I have stated in previous posts, the current funding arrangements are not sustainable. It is however for Parliament to sort out.

 

[JamesRowden]

I understand that tourist areas may lose out on pensioner travel; in theory it would be easy to charge the passenger's residential area, but this this would need a standardised charge back rate. Since the scheme was introduced technology has moved forward - think of touch and pay credit cards. If pensioners permit cards were set up as, effectively, t/p debit cards then they could automatically credit the bus company and debit the home authority.
The drawback is that all existing cards would need to be replaced as would all of the card readers, which would be very expensive and logistically a nightmare.

Senior tourists visiting an area should improve the area's economy.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

The idea of only giving bus passes to people who either don't drive or are prepared to give up their motorcars is unreasonable.

Somebody mentioned "well off " pensioners getting the benefit of the pass but a single mother , working and having children have to pay full fares,
Those mothers get housing benefit and child allowances etc

I am begrudged my bus pass but I have never begrudged my taxes being used to help pay for other peoples children .

Perhaps a good compromise would be a yearly fee of say £20 for the pass .With the millions of pensioners paying that it would bring in a large sum to offset the cost of the pass.

Graham

why should pensioner benefits NOT be means tested like all benefits... you mention about housing benefit and child allowances.... don't you realise that ANYONE can claim a benefit IF they qualify? the crux of my argument was that ALL benefits should be means tested.... at the end of the day concessionary travel is a benefit as is the winter fuel payment..

if those were means tested like all other benefits then they would be withdrawn from those who don't need them... and then could be given to others in groups not presently covered such as single working mothers on low income...

as you believe you would lose out then I can only assume that you are a comfortably off pensioner and I personally find it offensive that my taxes are going towards paying for handouts to someone who doesn't need them!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Senior tourists visiting an area should improve the area's economy.

Having worked as a tour driver I can assure you that the only real beneficiaries of pensioners visiting a town are the charity shops and tea rooms

 

[pemma]

Senior tourists visiting an area should improve the area's economy.

Like I said earlier in the thread any incentive to get more people to go to a tourist area will improve that area's economy so why only incentivise pensioners?

Also are pensioners going because of ENCTS or are they taking advantage of ENCTS on trips they would have taken regardless?

 

[JamesRowden]

Having worked as a tour driver I can assure you that the only real beneficiaries of pensioners visiting a town are the charity shops and tea rooms

Which hire people who earn money, with some of those earnings being spent in the local area, and so on.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But when I go to a town for a day trip I also spend money there. But nobody pays my bus fare.

Besides which, I'd wager that people who tourist because the bus is free, but wouldn't if the bus fare was eight quid, aren't really the sort to be dropping stacks of twenties in every shop in town. If they're not going to go to Whitby because they have to pay, they're going to be just as tight fisted when they get there.

 

[Tetchytyke]

ENCTS passes are no longer valid on any Red Arrow leaving Nottingham.

The poster said that, and pointed out that eligibility was removed precisely because the OAPs were starting to prevent fare paying customers from boarding.

It's the same in plenty of places. The first X93 from Middlesbrough to Whitby after 0930 is packed, the first 685 from Newcastle to Hexham and Carlisle is, the first 555 from Lancaster and Kendal is. Given that fare payers don't get off peak discounts, I wonder what it is that's making so many passengers wait until 0930...

 

[Deerfold]

Given that fare payers don't get off peak discounts, I wonder what it is that's making so many passengers wait until 0930...

That varies by area. In many areas there's two prices for the day ticket, with the cheaper price applying after a certain time.

It is a little annoying to get the bus at 0920 and have to pay for a peak day ticket to find it full of people who've boarded in North Yorkshire where the pass is valid from 0900.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

The poster said that, and pointed out that eligibility was removed precisely because the OAPs were starting to prevent fare paying customers from boarding.

WRONG! the decision to bar pass holders from using the Red Arrow was a political one taken by Nottingham and Derby Councils in order to save money... they decided that as it was an "express" service it was a premium service and so pensioners could use the lower frequency, longer journey "all stops" services... knowing full well that sitting on an uncomfortable bus seat for over an hour would put many off of travelling... also I'm sure that as the Red Arrow charged premium fares the payment for each pass on this service was higher than on the other all stops services!

IIRC TrentBarton had a lot to say against this decision as, quite rightly, they pointed out that Red Arrow fulfilled all the criteria neccessary to be a part of the scheme (and of course they have lost a valuable revenue stream on the service)

 

[Busaholic]

WRONG! the decision to bar pass holders from using the Red Arrow was a political one taken by Nottingham and Derby Councils in order to save money... they decided that as it was an "express" service it was a premium service and so pensioners could use the lower frequency, longer journey "all stops" services... knowing full well that sitting on an uncomfortable bus seat for over an hour would put many off of travelling... also I'm sure that as the Red Arrow charged premium fares the payment for each pass on this service was higher than on the other all stops services!

IIRC TrentBarton had a lot to say against this decision as, quite rightly, they pointed out that Red Arrow fulfilled all the criteria neccessary to be a part of the scheme (and of course they have lost a valuable revenue stream on the service)

We had a situation in West Cornwall a few years ago when Cornwall Council announced (in combination with First) that the very popular seasonal open top circular 300 service would no longer operate as such, and the replacement 300 service between Land's End and St. Ives direct (not via Penzance) would no longer be able to be used free by passholders. The decision was then taken to operate the route by a 'heritage vehicle' with a premium fare of £10, but half price for ENCTS passholders. First Day Tickets were also not accepted on the service. BEFORE the late announcement that First were operating a 'heritage vehicle' (a Bristol Lodekka) on it,I had email correspondence with Cornwall Council in which I stated my opinion that withdrawing concessionary pass use was legally debatable if not plain wrong: the sudden
decision to use an old bus did however make it legal.

This situation lasted just for one summer: when the 300 returned over the same route in 2015 it was worked by an ordinary open topper with no restrictions on free pass use (other than prior to 09.30) nor on day tickets, and this continued in 2016 too, so it could be said that Cornwall Council backed down.

 

[pemma]

Tourist routes are excluded under ENCTS so I would have thought using an open top double decker meant Cornwall council were being generous in allowing ENCTS to be used. You wouldn't get away with using it on a tourist open top decker in London!

To quote a tour guide from York "If you're an adult the cost is £5. If you're a pensioner and looking for a special price then you pay £6 because you walk slower."

 

[Busaholic]

Tourist routes are excluded under ENCTS so I would have thought using an open top double decker meant Cornwall council were being generous in allowing ENCTS to be used. You wouldn't get away with using it on a tourist open top decker in London!

To quote a tour guide from York "If you're an adult the cost is £5. If you're a pensioner and looking for a special price then you pay £6 because you walk slower."

I studied the wording and all the notes of guidance on this very carefully and concluded it was quite clear that the exemption to the requirement for accepting ENCTS applied specifically to tour buses marketed as such which, by the way, don't count as Stage Carriage services under the supervision of the Traffic Commissioners. On my side I had the fact that the previous 300 service had operated accepting passes for several years without a hint it was 'illegal' to do so: this point was ignored by CC's representative. What they did try to say was that 'seasonal' services were exempt, until I pointed out that the definition of seasonal under the scheme was IIRC six weeks, and certainly not the three or four months the service actually ran for. I also said that most of the roads covered by the route were unserved by other buses, so the opportunity for locals to make useful journeys, albeit only for those three or four months, should also have been taken into account. I like to think that common sense prevailed, but, having no contacts in either First Kernow or Cornwall Council, I don't know what caused the change of mind. No 'tour guides' have ever been used on the 300 either, even off the bus at termini.

 

[pemma]

I had the fact that the previous 300 service had operated accepting passes for several years without a hint it was 'illegal' to do so: this point was ignored by CC's representative.

That argument makes no sense which is probably why they ignored it. TfGM allow locally issued ENCTS passes to be used on trains and trams but that doesn't mean it's illegal for them to offer that or that it's illegal for them to withdraw the provision (above the legally required minimum) now they've provided it.

I've Googled ENCTS passes and tourist buses and it returned a meeting document from Cumbria council saying they allow ENCTS passes to be used on tourist routes despite it not being a legal requirement for them to do so.

What they did try to say was that 'seasonal' services were exempt, until I pointed out that the definition of seasonal under the scheme was IIRC six weeks, and certainly not the three or four months the service actually ran for.

Which doesn't explain how year round tourist routes in major cities can be exempt but it's apparently illegal for your Cornish bus.

I also said that most of the roads covered by the route were unserved by other buses, so the opportunity for locals to make useful journeys, albeit only for those three or four months, should also have been taken into account.

While that's an important consideration it doesn't automatically mean that they have to allow ENCTS if it's not required.

No 'tour guides' have ever been used on the 300 either, even off the bus at termini.

The tour guide who made that joke was doing a walking tour and the guide himself was probably not that many years off reaching retirement age. I just posted it to give a different prospective. A tourist bus doesn't have to have a guide, many of the cheaper ones don't have a live guide.

 

[Pigalle]

WRONG! the decision to bar pass holders from using the Red Arrow was a political one taken by Nottingham and Derby Councils in order to save money...

AFAIK Derby City Council have yet to confirm whether they will be joining Nottingham City Council in barring ENCTS passes from the Red Arrow. An announcement must be imminent as the change, if announced, is due to come into force from 1st April 2017.

 

[ivanhoe]

IIRC TrentBarton had a lot to say against this decision as, quite rightly, they pointed out that Red Arrow fulfilled all the criteria neccessary to be a part of the scheme (and of course they have lost a valuable revenue stream on the service)

So this Bus Company was complaining about not being able to carry ENCTS passengers. What do you say Artic Troll? That's a loss of a subsidy. But wait a minute, it's not a subsidy, it's a reimbursement for carrying passengers. Confused? No wonder Arriva and Trent Barton have web pages about ENCTS and encourage their use. Of course the down side is the effect it is happening on Councils. I think going back to the original poster , I doubt their use effects the price of single tickets but I think that most of us agree that the scheme in its current format will not be around in a few years time due to the severe funding crisis within Local Government. However, will the Government do anything or will they as I suspect, throw it back to the Councils to do as you wish but it no longer becomes a National(England) scheme. I think that as soon as Government placed their pot within the settlement for Councils, it made it easier to blame Councils without recourse to DFT. It really is up to you Theresa!

 

[carlberry]

That argument makes no sense which is probably why they ignored it. TfGM allow locally issued ENCTS passes to be used on trains and trams but that doesn't mean it's illegal for them to offer that or that it's illegal for them to withdraw the provision (above the legally required minimum) now they've provided it.

I've Googled ENCTS passes and tourist buses and it returned a meeting document from Cumbria council saying they allow ENCTS passes to be used on tourist routes despite it not being a legal requirement for them to do so.

When gives a clear guide to why giving councils absolute power over bus services is the road to ruin!
This is a council that's withdrawn all subsidy to bus services (leaving countless communities without a service and lots more with no evening or Sunday service) but sees no issue with giving money (that it doesnt have to give) to allow visiting tourists to ride round for free! The slight irony of that is, if the summer services get stuffed with pass holders, they're likely to become unviable as well!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

the problem with tourist routes is there is no clear definition of what constitutes a tourist route...

ok.. so a sightseeing tour is a tourist route (such as city sightseeing routes)

a service that runs only on summer suns through tourist areas is a tourist route...

but what about a local bus service (such as the 555 through the lakes) that carries a high number of tourists.... is that a local service? or a tourist route?

and what about services that are enhanced during the tourist season to cope with loadings?

the problem here is that the law is vaguely worded... and there then comes the argument between the LETTER of the law and the SPIRIT...

this can be seen in many facets of bus operation.. the most glaring being in drivers hrs legislation... the law states that after 13 days work a driver must have a 24 hr rest period... NOW the spirit of the law is that you must have a clear day off after 13 days working... BUT the LETTER of the law means you can actually work 365 days a year without a break.... after all if you finish today at 1359 and don't start work again until 1401 tomorrow you have fulfilled the requirement of a 24 hour rest period...

I think as far as tourist routes go this is what has happened with the ENCTS... the law is vague leaving it open to interpretation... and of course when that happens there will be a stand off... after all it is in the interests of the councils to interpret it more strictly than the companies do...

 

[ChathillMan]

Nothing stopping Trent making a commercial decision and introducing a Concession fare on the Red Arrow. Something similar exists on the Stagecoach X5

 

[Busaholic]

That argument makes no sense which is probably why they ignored it. TfGM allow locally issued ENCTS passes to be used on trains and trams but that doesn't mean it's illegal for them to offer that or that it's illegal for them to withdraw the provision (above the legally required minimum) now they've provided it.

.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to reply to your other points, which, as this forum seems to adopt the policy that the person who posts last has 'won' the argument will no doubt lead you to assume that posture too (when I worked for the Probation Service we were trained to come out when we were certain of our argument and not attempt to get the 'last word') but my getting involved in the issue of the 300 route stemmed from the lead article in the local 'Cornishman' in April 2014, revealing that the old circular route was no more, in part because of Cornwall Council's refusal to reimburse pass use. Cornwall Council were quoted in this article as telling the newspaper that it would be 'ILLEGAL' for them to reimburse in future, I was quoted in the following week's paper as saying that was rubbish, or words to that effect, so CC had ample opportunity to defend their stance, which they failed to do, either to the newspaper reporter, whom I briefed, or to me in my two emails. I drew my own conclusions from that, and also from their quietly recanting on it the following summer. As I'm not 'I told you so' I filed it away in my mind and memory until now.

 

[Robertj21a]

Nothing stopping Trent making a commercial decision and introducing a Concession fare on the Red Arrow. Something similar exists on the Stagecoach X5

Trent did for a while, but then withdrew it.

 

[Busaholic]

the problem with tourist routes is there is no clear definition of what constitutes a tourist route...

ok.. so a sightseeing tour is a tourist route (such as city sightseeing routes)

a service that runs only on summer suns through tourist areas is a tourist route...

but what about a local bus service (such as the 555 through the lakes) that carries a high number of tourists.... is that a local service? or a tourist route?

and what about services that are enhanced during the tourist season to cope with loadings?

the problem here is that the law is vaguely worded... and there then comes the argument between the LETTER of the law and the SPIRIT...

this can be seen in many facets of bus operation.. the most glaring being in drivers hrs legislation... the law states that after 13 days work a driver must have a 24 hr rest period... NOW the spirit of the law is that you must have a clear day off after 13 days working... BUT the LETTER of the law means you can actually work 365 days a year without a break.... after all if you finish today at 1359 and don't start work again until 1401 tomorrow you have fulfilled the requirement of a 24 hour rest period...

I think as far as tourist routes go this is what has happened with the ENCTS... the law is vague leaving it open to interpretation... and of course when that happens there will be a stand off... after all it is in the interests of the councils to interpret it more strictly than the companies do...

Actually I find the wording of the legislation and its codicils to be fairly comprehensive, save for the 'bus operator being neither better nor worse off' bit, the most essential with no further definition. Bit like 'Brexit is Brexit'.

You can't just say that if you happen to live in a 'tourist area', whatever that may be (I'm sure the various Tourist Boards would claim that's every square foot of the UK) then you will not be entitled to use a pass in your home area. After all, London and Edinburgh are the two top destinations for foreign tourists and both have free passes for local residents offering far greater benefits than the standard ECNTS conditions. You can't, however, use them on Sightseeing Tours and I've never seen this mentioned as an issue save FOR on this forum!