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Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

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LNW-GW Joint

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The Welsh Government has posted a consultation on the next franchise, closing on 23 May 2017.
This is replicated on the DfT web site, and is a joint consultation being managed by the WG.
https://consultations.gov.wales/sit..._files/170228-tw-consultation-document-en.pdf

The consultation is split into two sections - (a) South Wales Metro and (b) the rest.
It is rather bland and tick-box in nature, and contains no specific service proposals.
The geographic scope is "as a minimum" the current ATW network.
However, it is the first time that the WG and DfT have agreed on the scope of the franchise, which will be for 15 years with award due in January 2018.
The bidder short list, as we know, is Arriva, Abellio, MTR and Keolis/Amey.

It mentions the intention to operate to Bristol and Liverpool (subject to capacity).
It suggests that Hereford, Shrewsbury and Chester stations might be transferred to other franchises to manage.
If this happens, Hereford and Shrewsbury would go to West Midlands, Chester to either West Coast or Northern.
ATW's Sunday local services between Shrewsbury and Birmingham will transfer to West Midlands in 2021.

So, it's put up or shut up time!
For the first time, it seems the show is properly on the road.
 
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Gareth Marston

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The Welsh Government has posted a consultation on the next franchise, closing on 23 May 2017.
This is replicated on the DfT web site, and is a joint consultation being managed by the WG.
https://consultations.gov.wales/sit..._files/170228-tw-consultation-document-en.pdf

The consultation is split into two sections - (a) South Wales Metro and (b) the rest.
It is rather bland and tick-box in nature, and contains no specific service proposals.
The geographic scope is "as a minimum" the current ATW network.
However, it is the first time that the WG and DfT have agreed on the scope of the franchise, which will be for 15 years with award due in January 2018.
The bidder short list, as we know, is Arriva, Abellio, MTR and Keolis/Amey.

It mentions the intention to operate to Bristol and Liverpool (subject to capacity).
It suggests that Hereford, Shrewsbury and Chester stations might be transferred to other franchises to manage.
If this happens, Hereford and Shrewsbury would go to West Midlands, Chester to either West Coast or Northern.
ATW's Sunday local services between Shrewsbury and Birmingham will transfer to West Midlands in 2021.

So, it's put up or shut up time!
For the first time, it seems the show is properly on the road.

There's also consultation events-


Fe fyddwn yn lansio ymgynghoriad cyhoeddus ar Wasanaeth Trên Cymru â’r Gororau cyn hir. Fel rhan o’r broses ymgynghori, fe fyddwn yn cynnal nifer o weithdai hanner-dydd, bore i hêl eich barn ar y Wasanaeth newydd. Mae’r dyddiadau isod, i chi nodi yn eich dyddiadur. Bydd mwy o wybodaeth a manylion ar sut i gofrestru yn dilyn unwaith mae’r ymgynghoriad wedi’i lansio.



We will soon be launching a public consultation on the Wales and Borders Rail Service including the South Wales Metro. As part of the consultation process we’ll be hosting a series of half-day, morning workshops to gather views on the new Service. The dates of the events are below, please mark them in your diaries. More details of the events and joining instructions will be sent out once the consultation has been launched.



Dates and venues



20 Mawrth / March Canolfan Gateway Centre, Amwythig / Shrewsbury

21 Mawrth / March Venue Cymru, Llandudno

28 Mawrth March Coleg y Cymoedd, Nantgarw

29 Mawrth / March Gwesty’r Ivy Bush Hotel, Caerfyrddin / Carmarthen

3 Ebrill / April Gwesty’r Marine Hotel, Aberystwyth





ELEN KING

Rheolwr Cyfathrebu ac Ymgysylltu / Communications and Engagement Manager
Trafnidiaeth Cymru - Transport for Wales
Tŷ Southgate, Stryd Wood, Caerdydd, CF10 1EW

Southgate House, Wood Street, Cardiff, CF10 1EW

Ysgrifennwch ataf yn Gymraeg neu Saesneg
Please write to me in Welsh or English

Cwmni Cyfyngedig drwy Warrant. Cofrestrwyd yng
 

Gareth Marston

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Survey completed, but it does seem to concentrate on the Metro

appalling generic tick box nonsense mainly with the exception of the role of the second person on the train.

Ive said yes to the South Wales Metro being DCO provided that 95% of services are guaranteed a second staff member for customer service/revnue protection/passenger assistance etc.

Ive said keep the Conductor as is for everywhere else.
 
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Rhydgaled

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Now, where do we put "do NOT require operators to provide more than 3 through (fast) trains per day (each way) between Cardiff and Holyhead"? CDF-Holyhead every two hours (let alone hourly) is a waste of paths that as I wrote here could instead be used to strengthen the case for north Wales electrification. Ditto the Holyhead-Birmingham (via Wrexham) service; that needs to be split at Chester with NWCL-Birmingham services running via Crewe and Stafford.
 

Gareth Marston

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Now, where do we put "do NOT require operators to provide more than 3 through (fast) trains per day (each way) between Cardiff and Holyhead"? CDF-Holyhead every two hours (let alone hourly) is a waste of paths that as I wrote here could instead be used to strengthen the case for north Wales electrification. Ditto the Holyhead-Birmingham (via Wrexham) service; that needs to be split at Chester with NWCL-Birmingham services running via Crewe and Stafford.

There's som free text boxes stick it in there I did:p
 

gareth950

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Is there an option to say that the Valley Lines need to be kept as a single, unified through network from the Valleys to Penarth/Barry/Bridgend, rather than the bonkers plans to have it half tram / half heavy rail, splitting the current network at Central / Queen St and trying to terminate or turn around everything in Cardiff?

Thought not. :roll:
 
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pemma

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Now, where do we put "do NOT require operators to provide more than 3 through (fast) trains per day (each way) between Cardiff and Holyhead"? CDF-Holyhead every two hours (let alone hourly) is a waste of paths that as I wrote here could instead be used to strengthen the case for north Wales electrification. Ditto the Holyhead-Birmingham (via Wrexham) service; that needs to be split at Chester with NWCL-Birmingham services running via Crewe and Stafford.

Perhaps a requirement to run Liverpool to Holyhead every hour and Liverpool to Cardiff every two hours - that should limit the availability of paths for Holyhead to Cardiff. ;)
 

Rhydgaled

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Is there an option to say that the Valley Lines need to be kept as a single, unified through network from the Valleys to Penarth/Barry/Bridgend, rather than the bonkers plans to have it half tram / half heavy rail, splitting the current network at Central / Queen St and trying to terminate or turn around everything in Cardiff?

Thought not. :roll:
That's another of the things I want to try and get over to TfW/WAG. The only sensible way to split up the ValleyLines network, in my opinion, is to turn some of the shorter routes (Coryton, Cardiff Bay and maybe Penarth) into trams. Prefrably with a street running central section so they don't need to be tram-trains sharing the route through Queen Street station and from there to CDF. The bit about freight on the ValleyLines might be the best place to put that.

Another worry is the way Abergavenny and Chepstow are marked on the map as being part of the metro. Both hint that WAG may be leaning towards bi-modes, which could be a good thing (if it allows us to meet the TSI-PRM deadline without making the 150s compliant, probably by bringing in 319s since there seems to be no time left for any as-yet-unannouced new build DMUs by 2020) or a bad thing (if it leads to only the Cardiff - Pontypridd section actually getting electrified). Also, specifically with Abergavenny, I think it makes very little sense to terminate services there when one stop further on (Hereford) would offer more connections to other places (although that would then be more outer-suburban than metro).

An Ebbw Vale - Newport service seems to be missing from one of the maps too.
 
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gareth950

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That's another of the things I want to try and get over to TfW/WAG. The only sensible way to split up the ValleyLines network, in my opinion, is to turn some of the shorter routes (Coryton, Cardiff Bay and maybe Penarth) into trams. Prefrably with a street running central section so they don't need to be tram-trains sharing the route through Queen Street station and from there to CDF. The bit about freight on the ValleyLines might be the best place to put that.

I agree, however it's very difficult to envisage how Penarth or Coryton could become separate tram services atm - neither are completely separate from the HR network. Penarth services would still be using HR lines between Cogan junction - Grangetown - Central and Coryton services between Heath Low Level - Central.

Any NEW rail connections in the Valleys / Cardiff should by all means be light rail (apart from if passenger services past Aberdare are ever extended to Hirwaun) - I'm amazed that no light rail connections are being considered for the new housing developments out at Cardiff West - but for upgrading the existing network, including Maesteg and Ebbw Vale, track improvements, including doubling of single line sections and heavy rail electrification must be the best solution.
 
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Rhydgaled

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I agree, however it's very difficult to envisage how Penarth or Coryton could become separate tram services atm - neither are completely separate from the HR network. Penarth services would still be using HR lines between Cogan junction - Grangetown - Central and Coryton services between Heath Low Level - Central.
Yeah, if the Penarth branch were converted to light rail it would have to use tram-train rolling stock (on heavy rail infrustructure from Cogan Junc. to Cardiff) unless you can four-track along there (two tracks heavy rail at 25kv AC and two tracks tram). You would need a new bridge over the River Ely for the two new tracks, but otherwise it looks on Google Earth like the formation might be wide enough until Grangetown where you might get four tracks but probably not four platforms unless you can put one for trams under half the heavy rail formation. The bridge (over Virgil Street) just south of Penarth Curve South Junc. also looks like it would be a tight spot for 4-track, so the trams would have to turn right (heading towards Cardiff) onto street-running somewhere; maybe at Grangetown station. If there, trams would run along Penarth Road (A4160) to the southern entrance of Cardiff Central. That is where it could meet the Cardiff Bay and Coryton lines, with northbound trams diverging from the current Cardiff Bay line near Callaghan square, then past the back entrance of CDF (joining Penarth Road), under the GWML and somehow (the tricky bit, perhaps) threading its way along the city streets to Heath Low Level, thus completely segregated from the heavy rail routes.

Any NEW rail connections in the Valleys / Cardiff should by all means be light rail (apart from if passenger services past Aberdare are ever extended to Hirwaun).
I think there is (or should be) more scope for heavy rail additions than that; for starters why stop at Hirwaun? Ok there is track there and not beyond, but linking through to Glynneath and Swansea would start to turn it into a truely south-east Wales metro, rather than just a Cardiff metro. Sticking to the Cardiff/Newport valleys, Abertillery, Trelewis (Cwm Bargoed branch); maybe even Blaenavon and Brecon. All must be considered as future additions which would want to be heavy rail.

but for upgrading the existing network, including Maesteg and Ebbw Vale, track improvements, including doubling of single line sections and heavy rail electrification must be the best solution.
I agree in general, but if you are VERY, VERY certain that you are NEVER going to extend (for example) the Treherbert line and there are low bridges it might be worth considering dual-voltage heavy-rail EMUs with lower-voltage light-rail style OHLE on the extremities (such as between Treherbert and Pontypridd) to avoid the cost of rebuilding bridges.

Perhaps a requirement to run Liverpool to Holyhead every hour and Liverpool to Cardiff every two hours - that should limit the availability of paths for Holyhead to Cardiff. ;)
Portion working would solve that.
I think you may be overlooking some of the context of my earlier post; specifically the effect regular Holyhead to Cardiff services would have on the case for north Wales electrification. Good luck portion working an EMU with a DMU, unless you order brand new fleets of both. Plus the only long-distance fast diesel units currently in existance which are good for portion working are the 158s/159s and they are all in use.
 

Gareth Marston

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Nice to see you've given it in two languages. Will you be doing the same for future posts on the new franchise. ;)

Arwyddion yr anogwr cefn underutilized Caergybi i Gaerdydd a bydd cael gwasanaeth bob awr i gynnal gwersi iaith Gymraeg fel y gall ein ffrindiau yn y ffin yn darllen ffyrdd yn enwedig ddall cynhadledd Cymru.
 

Gareth Marston

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Heres what National Express were promising in 2001 before the goalpost were moved.

Do you think Transport Wales will be as bold to go for 50 million users, £350 million investment in trains, £300 million in infrastructure and 1000 new jobs?
 

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Dai Corner

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This is what Google Translate made of Gareth's post. Could you enlighten us non Welsh readers please? :D


The coach signs Holyhead to Cardiff and back underutilized will be an hourly service to conduct language lessons so that our friends in the border reads roads especially blind Wales conference.
 

pemma

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This is what Google Translate made of Gareth's post. Could you enlighten us non Welsh readers please? :D

Another instance of poor Welsh translation is below. The Welsh displays an out-of-office message in response to an email to translate the text in to Welsh.

_45162744_-2.jpg
 
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Llanigraham

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I suspect Gareth is not a Welsh speaker and has used a (poor) translation service.
 

Gareth Marston

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I suspect Gareth is not a Welsh speaker and has used a (poor) translation service.

the under-utilised carriages on the hourly Cardiff to Holyhead trains would be ideal mobile Welsh classrooms in order so we can all become better translators. It kills two sacred cows from Cardiff Bay with one stone.
 

miami

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Arwyddion yr anogwr cefn underutilized Caergybi i Gaerdydd a bydd cael gwasanaeth bob awr i gynnal gwersi iaith Gymraeg fel y gall ein ffrindiau yn y ffin yn darllen ffyrdd yn enwedig ddall cynhadledd Cymru.

I think your keyboard is broken
 

PHILIPE

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Another instance of poor Welsh translation is below. The Welsh displays an out-of-office message in response to an email to translate the text in to Welsh.

_45162744_-2.jpg

For those who do not understand:-

I'm not in the office at the moment. Send any work to be translated
 
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Class 170101

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Tram Trains might be a good idea. But I would let them run from Maestag in the west as far as Ebbw Vale Town in the east and everything in between including via Barry.

New DMUs elsewhere else.

Cardiff to Cheltenham I would hand over to XC though and extend to New Street if this is possible.

Service wise I don' think the Holyhead to Cardiff, Holyhead to Manchester, SW Wales to Manchester via the Marches or Mid Wales to Birmingham needs to change but I would get get rid of the WAG Express.
 

Rhydgaled

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Do you think Transport Wales will be as bold to go for 50 million users, £350 million investment in trains, £300 million in infrastructure and 1000 new jobs?
Infrastructure spend will easily exceed £300 million if they don't skimp on ValleyLines electrification. As for trains, £350m might buy around 290 unpowered vehicles (guessing £1.2m each) or 175 DMU vehicles (guessing £2m each).

Given the TSI-PRM issue, the need to make a strong case if north Wales electrification is to stand a chance and the delivery dates for GA's Flirts and Northern's new DMUs (which run into late 2019 I believe) I would suggest a batch of mrk5a coaches, following on from TPE's order, running:
  • Hourly Manchester - Swansea services
  • Hourly Manchester - Holyhead fast services (perhaps with some gaps for ICWC Euston serivces and the following)
  • 3 fast Holyhead-Cardiff trains each way per day
Being loco-hauled, the diesel loco on the Holyhead-Manchester services could be swapped for an electric without wasting the investment in the coaches. Possibly more difficult are the current hourly stoppers to/from Llandudno and the north Wales services I would suggest adding. These are an hourly semi-fast to/from Bangor (with extension to Caernarfon in mind) and a Holyhead-Llandudno stopper every two hours. Locos cannot handle stops as well as units, but if you're using 175s in north Wales does that make it difficult to electrify? Anyway, the Bangor/Caernarfon and Llandudno services would run to Liverpool/Birmingham (the latter via Crewe and Stafford). I'm working on timetables (marches and HOWL at the moment) to try and work out numbers of trains required.
 

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If you propose the reintroduction of the Holyhead-Llandudno stopping service, that could presumably interwork with the Conwy Valley so the timetable can be made marginally less useless? In particular a departure from Llandudno down the Valley at 1800ish is sorely needed to improve work access.
 

krus_aragon

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I suspect Gareth is not a Welsh speaker and has used a (poor) translation service.

Hours of fun can be had with the likes of Google Translate and translating a piece from language A>B>A, or even A>B>C>D>A. My friends and I found that song lyrics make for very comical mistranslations.
 

krus_aragon

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If you propose the reintroduction of the Holyhead-Llandudno stopping service, that could presumably interwork with the Conwy Valley so the timetable can be made marginally less useless? In particular a departure from Llandudno down the Valley at 1800ish is sorely needed to improve work access.

Increasing the frequency beyond the current three-hourly will require either faster stock/ linespeed improvements or abandoning the clockface timetable (is it that relevant for such a low frequency line?). It currently takes 58 minutes to run BFF-LLJ with request stops (LLJ-BFF limited stop is 54) which leaves no turnaround/recovery time if we try to shoehorn a two-hourly clockface service down the valley.

Edit: If the services are interworked with Holyhead stoppers, then those would also end up drifting away from a clockface timetable.
 
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Gareth Marston

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Increasing the frequency beyond the current three-hourly will require either faster stock/ linespeed improvements or abandoning the clockface timetable (is it that relevant for such a low frequency line?). It currently takes 58 minutes to run BFF-LLJ with request stops (LLJ-BFF limited stop is 54) which leaves no turnaround/recovery time if we try to shoehorn a two-hourly clockface service down the valley.

Edit: If the services are interworked with Holyhead stoppers, then those would also end up drifting away from a clockface timetable.

If your going to have rural railways then Ive always believed your going to have to make best use of them. We've had the too scared to close them try and run them on a shoestring to save money approach for too long on many lines as privatization/franchising locked in the cuts BR made in the early 1990's.
 

krus_aragon

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If your going to have rural railways then Ive always believed your going to have to make best use of them. We've had the too scared to close them try and run them on a shoestring to save money approach for too long on many lines as privatization/franchising locked in the cuts BR made in the early 1990's.

I agree, and I would like to see a more frequent service on the Conwy Valley, in the summer months at least (and will be saying so in my consultation response today). I hadn't meant to sound pessimistic, just wanted to point out what constraints there are on the line.

One low-(infrastructure) cost could be to run a ~1.5-hourly service, crossing every train at Gogledd Llanrwst. The down side is that there'd be no room to run summer railtours down the branch without pulling a service train. This idea is straight off the top of my head: I haven't even put crayon to paper yet!
 

LNW-GW Joint

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There a parallel initiative from WG on the North East Wales Metro, which was covered in last night's BBC Wales Today.
http://gov.wales/topics/transport/public/north-east-wales-metro/?lang=en

The document is unexciting to say the least.
It lists all the minor improvements that are in the pipeline but offers nothing new beyond a few bus interchanges and grade separations on the A55.
There is the usual list of RUS-type rail projects on the drawing board, but with no hint of priorities or funding.

It does have some useful maps of transport patterns across the border, and does stress the importance of links with the north west and midlands.
Often forgotten is the reverse flow of traffic into Wales (to places like Airbus and Deeside, quite apart from the many tourists).
We might have to have a new A494 road bridge at Queensferry because the current one is in "poor structural condition".
 
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