• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

TPE Class 397 ('Nova 2') construction and updates

Status
Not open for further replies.

absolutelymilk

Established Member
Joined
18 Jul 2015
Messages
1,239
There doesn't seem to be a separate thread for the 397s so I thought I would start one. For background, these are 125mph five-car intercity trains being built for TPE by CAF.

Does anyone know when construction will start and when is the planned date for service introduction? All I can find is that they will be fully in service by 2019.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
11,048
Location
Macclesfield
The lease of the trains is due to start on the 2nd October 2018, and the TPE franchise agreement states that their 350s will go off lease between 11 November 2018 and 30 April 2019, which gives a very clear window of introduction for the 397s. Presumably there'll be a period of type testing under CAF prior to this, before the sets are accepted by TPE.
 
Last edited:

absolutelymilk

Established Member
Joined
18 Jul 2015
Messages
1,239
The lease of the trains is due to start on the 2nd October 2018, and the TPE franchise agreement states that their 350s will go off lease between 11 November 2018 and 30 April 2019, which gives a very clear window of introduction for the 397s. Presumably there'll be a period of type testing under CAF prior to this, before the sets are accepted by TPE.

Brilliant, thanks for the info. Is the lease agreement online somewhere?
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,555
Location
Mold, Clwyd
They won't exceed 110mph of course, unless they find themselves on the ECML north of York for some reason.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,624
Location
Another planet...
They won't exceed 110mph of course, unless they find themselves on the ECML north of York for some reason.

Once the TPE wiring is done (if it ever is!) it wouldn't surprise me to see them occasionally running Liverpool to Edinburgh via Leeds providing that crew route & traction knowledge allows it. Either as a way of avoiding disruption on the North WCML or even a semi-regular positioning move.
 

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,474
Location
Knutsford
They won't exceed 110mph of course, unless they find themselves on the ECML north of York for some reason.

Tony Miles claimed in First's West Coast bid they had proposed using non-tilting CAF built trains on Birmingham to Scotland services at speeds of up to 115mph, so it could be that would apply to Manchester Airport/Liverpool to Scotland services as well.
 

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,474
Location
Knutsford
Once the TPE wiring is done (if it ever is!) it wouldn't surprise me to see them occasionally running Liverpool to Edinburgh via Leeds providing that crew route & traction knowledge allows it. Either as a way of avoiding disruption on the North WCML or even a semi-regular positioning move.

The TPE franchise agreement includes an option for ordering 7 to 22 additional EMUs in 5, 6 or 8 car formations to enter service in 2022. However, a mixture of formations for the additional trains isn't permitted so 12 additional 5 car 397s and 10 x 8 car 397s wouldn't be allowed but 22 additional 5 car 397s would be!
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,555
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Tony Miles claimed in First's West Coast bid they had proposed using non-tilting CAF built trains on Birmingham to Scotland services at speeds of up to 115mph, so it could be that would apply to Manchester Airport/Liverpool to Scotland services as well.

There was a notion doing the rounds at one time that the standard European performance certification for classic EMUs would be 190kph (=118mph).
So it was thought NR would round this down to 115mph and Bob's your uncle.
But I don't think it's as simple as that in the UK.
Somebody will have to do a business/safety case for it, and I doubt NR would be happy to simply change the lineside signs on WCML North, where the curvature is the usually the limiting factor, without a lot of thought/persuasion/cash.
 
Last edited:

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,474
Location
Knutsford
There was a notion doing the rounds at one time that the standard European performance certification for classic EMUs would be 190kph (=118mph).
So it was thought NR would round this down to 115mph and Bob's your uncle.
But I don't think it's as simple as that in the UK.
Somebody will have to do a business/safety case for it, and I doubt NR would be happy to simply change the lineside signs on WCML North, where the curvature is the usually the limiting factor, without a lot of thought/persuasion/cash.

There has also been talk of work being done on the WCML to allow tilting trains to travel at up to 135mph, which could in turn raise speeds for non-tilting trains but I don't know if that work is likely to go ahead.
 

507021

Established Member
Joined
19 Feb 2015
Messages
4,670
Location
Chester
The TPE franchise agreement includes an option for ordering 7 to 22 additional EMUs in 5, 6 or 8 car formations to enter service in 2022. However, a mixture of formations for the additional trains isn't permitted so 12 additional 5 car 397s and 10 x 8 car 397s wouldn't be allowed but 22 additional 5 car 397s would be!

That does seem a bit odd, but I think six car 397s would be the way to go once Trans-Pennine electrification is completed.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,224
Location
Bolton
I am actually slightly concerned that they haven't ordered enough of these to cover the current diagrams. There will be two more units but they will need to cover presumably two Liverpool to Glasgow diagrams? The only reason the current set-up works is because some 185s take on their work on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Presumably we will still see 6 car 185s after the 397s arrive? I'm also concerned about the services that run as 8-car which are sometimes full and standing between Manchester and Preston. How will they cope with a 5 car train?
 

absolutelymilk

Established Member
Joined
18 Jul 2015
Messages
1,239
I am actually slightly concerned that they haven't ordered enough of these to cover the current diagrams. There will be two more units but they will need to cover presumably two Liverpool to Glasgow diagrams? The only reason the current set-up works is because some 185s take on their work on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Presumably we will still see 6 car 185s after the 397s arrive? I'm also concerned about the services that run as 8-car which are sometimes full and standing between Manchester and Preston. How will they cope with a 5 car train?

I'm guessing that the reduced distance between Manchester and Preston once electrification is complete will mean that they will need less stock to complete the diagrams. Not to mention there will (hopefully!) be better acceleration/less maintenance with the new stock.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,224
Location
Bolton
Hmm, a non-stop train from Preston to Manchester Oxford Road via Wigan North Western currently takes 35 minutes. Can this really be reduced by running via Bolton, even after the sections of speed increase? The fastest service I can see at the minute is the 1920 from Manchester Oxford Road which as 3 intermediate calls at Bolton, Horwich Parkway and Chorley, taking 40 minutes. Perhaps it can go down to 32 or 31 minutes but is it realistic for the journey time to decrease more than that?

Timing the services at 110mph will only gain a minute here and a minute there between Preston and Edinburgh / Glasgow.
 
Last edited:

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
3,972
I am actually slightly concerned that they haven't ordered enough of these to cover the current diagrams. There will be two more units but they will need to cover presumably two Liverpool to Glasgow diagrams? The only reason the current set-up works is because some 185s take on their work on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Presumably we will still see 6 car 185s after the 397s arrive? I'm also concerned about the services that run as 8-car which are sometimes full and standing between Manchester and Preston. How will they cope with a 5 car train?

There will be increased capacity on Northern services between Manchester and Bolton / Preston once electrification is completed and the 397s have one more coach than the 350s so there will be more options for using advanced ticketing to spread out passengers. The Liverpool to Glasgow service will only run 3 times a day so can be done with 2 units. Presumably with the units doing a return and a one way service per day with a staff change over so they finish close to home.

Once Manchester to Leeds electrification is complete it would make sense to order more 397s to run some Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds-Newcastle-Edinburgh services or more Liverpool-Glasgow services. I wouldn't be surprised if the Mark Vs say diesel hauled.

What is the current plan for the loco hauled and 802s? Which services are they being introduced on and which are they then running on? Was the plan changed recently or was it just a rumour?
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,624
Location
Another planet...
I am actually slightly concerned that they haven't ordered enough of these to cover the current diagrams. There will be two more units but they will need to cover presumably two Liverpool to Glasgow diagrams? The only reason the current set-up works is because some 185s take on their work on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Presumably we will still see 6 car 185s after the 397s arrive? I'm also concerned about the services that run as 8-car which are sometimes full and standing between Manchester and Preston. How will they cope with a 5 car train?

I'm guessing that the reduced distance between Manchester and Preston once electrification is complete will mean that they will need less stock to complete the diagrams. Not to mention there will (hopefully!) be better acceleration/less maintenance with the new stock.

Once the new TPE fleets are delivered, it would make sense for any "Friday rush" capacity boosts to be made using the 80x bi-mode sets rather than 185s, as these can use the AC. That's assuming there wouldn't be any gauging issues, of course.
 

absolutelymilk

Established Member
Joined
18 Jul 2015
Messages
1,239
Hmm, a non-stop train from Preston to Manchester Oxford Road via Wigan North Western currently takes 35 minutes. Can this really be reduced by running via Bolton, even after the sections of speed increase? The fastest service I can see at the minute is the 1920 from Manchester Oxford Road which as 3 intermediate calls at Bolton, Horwich Parkway and Chorley, taking 40 minutes. Perhaps it can go down to 32 or 31 minutes but is it realistic for the journey time to decrease more than that?

Using a very rough estimate on Google Maps, I make it about 42 miles via Wigan and 32 via Bolton. Maybe someone else knows the exact distance?
 

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
Using rail miles I get
30.73 Victoria to Preston via Bolton,
32.7 via Atherton,
35.2 via Westhoughton and
37 miles via Chat Moss.

(Manchester Piccadilly add 1 more mile to Victoria distance for any destination, I used Victoria rather than Piccadilly as starting point as easier to control Rail Miles output)

Via Chat Moss it would be limited to a maximum of 100 till WCML then 110
Via Bolton it would be limited to a maximum of 100 all the way

So after electrification and speed upgrades Bolton would probably be faster by uto 5 min bearing in mind traffic and having to pass through more stations though the service wont be timed for the maximum possible speed. However if they ever sorted the Chatmoss/WCML junction to be more than a long snails crawl it would probably be about equal again.
 
Last edited:

thealexweb

Member
Joined
5 Jan 2014
Messages
956
Hmm, a non-stop train from Preston to Manchester Oxford Road via Wigan North Western currently takes 35 minutes. Can this really be reduced by running via Bolton, even after the sections of speed increase? The fastest service I can see at the minute is the 1920 from Manchester Oxford Road which as 3 intermediate calls at Bolton, Horwich Parkway and Chorley, taking 40 minutes. Perhaps it can go down to 32 or 31 minutes but is it realistic for the journey time to decrease more than that?

Timing the services at 110mph will only gain a minute here and a minute there between Preston and Edinburgh / Glasgow.

A Class 185 calling only at Bolton can run Manchester to Preston in 29 minutes. This is before EMU acceleration, 100mph running, etc are taken in to account.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,224
Location
Bolton
Once the new TPE fleets are delivered, it would make sense for any "Friday rush" capacity boosts to be made using the 80x bi-mode sets rather than 185s, as these can use the AC. That's assuming there wouldn't be any gauging issues, of course.

I did think about that. There may be significant advantage in having each cleared by both routes. But there may be a few issues with crew...
 

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,223
I wouldn't be surprised if the 397s were extended to 6 or 8 carriages in future to cope with passenger numbers on Manchester-Scotland. With ICWC capacity remaining static until HS2 opens, TPE will need to bear the burden of additional northern WCML passengers. Additional units would be required if the Liverpool-Glasgow services prove to be a success and more of them are run as a result.
 

BMIFlyer

Member
Joined
13 Mar 2017
Messages
723
For info,

The TPE future fleet plans per route are as follows:

Class 185:
Man Air to Cleethorpes (double sets Man-Sheffield)
Man Picc to Hull (double sets)
Man Picc to Leeds/Selby skip stop (single sets but potential to double)


Loco hauled MK5's:
Man Air to Middlesbrough
Liverpool to Scarborough


Class 397:
Man Air - Preston - Glasgow
Liverpool - Wigan - Glasgow
(These trains should combine / separate at Preston)

Man Air - Preston - Edinburgh


Class 802:
Man Air - Leeds - Newcastle
Liverpool - Leeds - Newcastle - Edinburgh



As for the news report regarding 397 construction, expect to see it in RAIL shortly.

No plans to shift 397's to cross the Pennines so unsure as to where that has come from - platform end talk / forum babble?

As per unit orders there's a chance in the future from say 2020 that TPE could run an hourly service all day to Scotland via Preston and would therefore require more 397's.

Regarding capacity, Northern are to introduce more services to Man Air from Lancaster to pick up the pax that currently swamp the TPE services after the pax arrive from the Barrow terminators.
 
Last edited:

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,555
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Via Chat Moss it would be limited to a maximum of 100 till WCML then 110
Via Bolton it would be limited to a maximum of 100 all the way

It's 90 max via Chat Moss (75 before Astley).
Although 100 is going to appear on the Bolton route, I don't think it will be throughout.
Paths and stopping patterns will hold timings back via Bolton.
Some Scotland trains will still go via Golborne.
Attach/detach 397s at Preston won't help overall timings, either.
 

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
3,972
For info,

The TPE future fleet plans per route are as follows:

Class 185:
Man Air to Cleethorpes (double sets Man-Sheffield)
Man Picc to Hull (double sets)
Man Picc to Leeds/Selby skip stop (single sets but potential to double)


Loco hauled MK5's:
Man Air to Middlesbrough
Liverpool to Scarborough


Class 397:
Man Air - Preston - Glasgow
Liverpool - Wigan - Glasgow
(These trains should combine / separate at Preston)

Man Air - Preston - Edinburgh


Class 802:
Man Air - Leeds - Newcastle
Liverpool - Leeds - Newcastle - Edinburgh



As for the news report regarding 397 construction, expect to see it in RAIL shortly.

No plans to shift 397's to cross the Pennines so unsure as to where that has come from - platform end talk / forum babble?

As per unit orders there's a chance in the future from say 2020 that TPE could run an hourly service all day to Scotland via Preston and would therefore require more 397's.

Regarding capacity, Northern are to introduce more services to Man Air from Lancaster to pick up the pax that currently swamp the TPE services after the pax arrive from the Barrow terminators.

Thanks.

The origin of talk about the potential of extra 397s being built for ECML services is that they are the only trains that TPE obtained a follow on order option for. This would indicate that they plan to deal with any lack of capacity through ordering them or retaining extra 185s and not ordering extra Mark Vs or 802s.
 

Bornin1980s

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2017
Messages
479
Okay, when 185s run in multiple, how does the guard collect all the fares? Might it be an idea to add a gangway connection to just one end, like on the tp 124s of old?
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,669
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
Okay, when 185s run in multiple, how does the guard collect all the fares? Might it be an idea to add a gangway connection to just one end, like on the tp 124s of old?

Even with them running in 3 car formations, the loadings often mean the guards cannot get down the unit to complete ticket checks. Adding gangways would help a bit on doubled up sets, but you'd have to do it for both ends as the 185s get turned around a lot so from service to service you never really know which end will be facing forwards when they run.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,624
Location
Another planet...
Even with them running in 3 car formations, the loadings often mean the guards cannot get down the unit to complete ticket checks. Adding gangways would help a bit on doubled up sets, but you'd have to do it for both ends as the 185s get turned around a lot so from service to service you never really know which end will be facing forwards when they run.

Besides, I don't know how easy it would be to provide an after-market gangway that meets crash regulations, even if it only has to meet the standards for the period that the units were delivered.

The reason I'd expect the 397s to maybe run North TransPennine services is that they'll presumably be standard C3 loading gauge... though the core will already be cleared for SET sets anyway, of course.
 

Darandio

Established Member
Joined
24 Feb 2007
Messages
10,674
Location
Redcar
Okay, when 185s run in multiple, how does the guard collect all the fares? Might it be an idea to add a gangway connection to just one end, like on the tp 124s of old?

The guard shouldn't have to collect any fares, all passengers should have a ticket before boarding because all stations should have sufficient facilities for them to do so.

Then I woke up........
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top