• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

First Class within TFL zones 1-6

Status
Not open for further replies.

zoopla

Member
Joined
29 Aug 2016
Messages
6
Location
london
I saw a notice on a Southern Train, travelling to London Victoria, that said there was no First Class within London Zones 1-6.
IE a 1st class ticket was NOT needed to travel in First Class within zones 1-6.

Is this for Southern Trains only or does this apply to all NR trains travelling within London ?


(Zoe Plachette)
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

gray1404

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2014
Messages
6,590
Location
Merseyside
I have seen people getting their details taken on Brighton bound services between Victoria and East Croydon for sitting in first class with standard class tickets.
 

class387

Established Member
Joined
9 Oct 2015
Messages
1,525
I saw a notice on a Southern Train, travelling to London Victoria, that said there was no First Class within London Zones 1-6.
IE a 1st class ticket was NOT needed to travel in First Class within zones 1-6.

Is this for Southern Trains only or does this apply to all NR trains travelling within London ?


(Zoe Plachette)

It's not even all Southern trains! Just the 'metro' services (Caterham, Epsom, Sutton, Tattenham Corner etc.). I think it's because some of the trains on these routes are 455s which have no first class, while others (377s) do. Not much difference anyway.

There are some other TOCs which declassify on some local services, but there is no rule.
 
Last edited:
Joined
25 Apr 2017
Messages
212
Location
Mainly SE Asia, occasionally Central Belt
I took a Thameslink Metro service once (the Sutton service) and I believe it was declassified as well - but after hearing the horror stories of people getting off the deep end for accidentally being in first class on a standard ticket - no thank you!
 

class387

Established Member
Joined
9 Oct 2015
Messages
1,525
I took a Thameslink Metro service once (the Sutton service) and I believe it was declassified as well - but after hearing the horror stories of people getting off the deep end for accidentally being in first class on a standard ticket - no thank you!

If I am correct Thameslink services to Sutton are declassified. I've even heard announcements saying that there is 'no first and you can sit in any part of the train'.

Meanwhile, the Brighton train mentioned earlier isn't, hence the penalty fare.
 

Mag_seven

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
1 Sep 2014
Messages
10,024
Location
here to eternity
I've never heard of 1st class being "declassified" for certain portions of the journey? Do the RPI's lurk in the background then pounce on 1st class the moment the train leaves Zone 6?
 

MikeWh

Established Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
15 Jun 2010
Messages
7,870
Location
Crayford
I've never heard of 1st class being "declassified" for certain portions of the journey? Do the RPI's lurk in the background then pounce on 1st class the moment the train leaves Zone 6?

The services in question are usually completely within zones 1-6.
 

GodAtum

On Moderation
Joined
11 Dec 2009
Messages
2,637
When I was getting a season ticket from East Croydon - Victoria, the ticket office staff member said I don't need 1st class. After a bit of debate, she issued me a 1st class ticket. I have heard various announcements on-board trains saying that 1st class is in effect.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,167
Location
No longer here
When I was getting a season ticket from East Croydon - Victoria, the ticket office staff member said I don't need 1st class. After a bit of debate, she issued me a 1st class ticket. I have heard various announcements on-board trains saying that 1st class is in effect.

Perhaps she was trying to stop you wasting your money. ;)
 

zoopla

Member
Joined
29 Aug 2016
Messages
6
Location
london
It's not even all Southern trains! Just the 'metro' services (Caterham, Epsom, Sutton, Tattenham Corner etc.). I think it's because some of the trains on these routes are 455s which have no first class, while others (377s) do. Not much difference anyway.

There are some other TOCs which declassify on some local services, but there is no rule.

It seems that its best for me to stay out of 1st Class

I understand 'metro' to mean services entirely within z1-6, but Epsom is beyond z6.

Would Dorking or Horsham services be classified as 'metro' ?

There is also the Thameslink 'Wimbledon Loop'. This goes to Bedford, but on Sundays some only go to Blackfriars.
 

abn444

Member
Joined
31 Jan 2016
Messages
149
Would Dorking or Horsham services be classified as 'metro' ?

I'm pretty sure they are and therefore declassified. Although if it's for Horsham then only declassified on the route via Epsom and Dorking.
 

tsr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
7,400
Location
Between the parallel lines
Here is the definitive answer, for Southern:

Unless staff state otherwise, First Class is in operation on "mainline" services in the London Zones, but not on the vast majority of "Metro" services.

First Class tickets can be purchased on paper or on a lot of smartcards, eg. Southern's "key" cards, but not on Oyster. Oyster is only able to be used in First Class on mainline services at the weekends, provided you are willing to pay the Weekend First upgrade as soon as it is requested of you, which is a blanket £5 cost for one journey on any Southern train. For Oyster, also read contactless, Freedom Passes, Apple Pay etc.

The very observant will have noticed a tiny bit of small print on some of the First Class signage over the last couple of years, which does say that First Class upgrades are only available at weekends.

So... geography...

Metro services are mainly Southern's suburban stopping services, and these trains can be formed of trains with or without First Class areas provided. They are also services which generally spend a great deal (or all) of their journey in the London Zones, but may run outside the zonal areas at times. Routes included are those Southern trains which run to Beckenham Junction, West Croydon, Sutton, Epsom, Dorking, the route between Dorking and Horsham via Ockley, Caterham, Tattenham Corner, Wimbledon, Guildford, Crystal Palace, Streatham Hill, and all stops between London Victoria and East Croydon (mainly peak hours).

First Class is also declassified on some (but not all) of the mainline fast shuttles in the evenings between London Bridge and East Croydon, via Norwood Junction only, and on Southern services which start or terminate at Ashford International, often on the basis that some of these trains are quite short and can be very crowded.

First Class is provided on some Southern services towards Milton Keynes Central, which is mainly enforced north of Watford Junction. All such trains must have a conductor north of Clapham Junction, so they would be the person to ask. These are usually the only Southern services where it could be enforced part-way through the journey. These trains are something of an oddity, in that they are grouped under Metro but run with semi-fast stopping patterns at higher speeds north of Shepherd's Bush.

Trains to/from London Victoria or London Bridge which run via Redhill, Gatwick, Oxted, Three Bridges and/or Haywards Heath generally have First Class in operation throughout the journey, including in the London Zones. These services usually spend considerable time outside London, where people may have longer journeys where an upgrade to First Class is perhaps somewhat more likely to be worth the effort, and are almost always formed of trains with First Class areas.
 
Last edited:

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,359
Location
Bolton
Oyster is only able to be used in First Class on mainline services at the weekends, provided you are willing to pay the Weekend First upgrade as soon as it is requested of you, which is a blanket £5 cost for one journey on any Southern train. For Oyster, also read contactless, Freedom Passes, Apple Pay etc.

All references to Weekend First on Southern were removed from the NRE website when Southern joined GTR in 2015.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/pr3744bcc35ce7410024862c7ece4649.aspx

Southern's own website has also had all of the references to Weekend First removed:

First class travel


Southern offer First Class train tickets on the majority of our routes. If you choose to work on the train, there are power points close by on some of our services.

These seats are not just for season tickets, they can also be bought for the majority of daily tickets and Travelcards too.

Book your First Class train ticket today!

First Class Advance train fares

First Class Advance fares are available between Brighton and London Victoria, these single tickets are priced at £17.

Book your First Class ticket today!

Upgrading your standard class ticket (Monday to Friday)

If you wish to upgrade your Standard Class ticket to First Class (Monday to Friday), you will need to do so before boarding the train. Our Conductors will only sell a new First Class ticket on board and will no longer be able to offer an upgrade. In addition, you may be liable to a Penalty Fare; however discretion will be applied if the ticket office was closed at the departure station.

http://www.southernrailway.com/tickets-and-fares/ticket-types/first-class-travel/

I am sure the National Rail Timetable used to include a full list of operators who offered weekend first. Perhaps it was under the "Commercial Information" heading. It also used to include sections on crossing london and things like a summary of the changes in the new timetable. Has this been abolished? I can't see any evidence of this any more.

Anyway, to summarise there's no evidence Southern actually do operate weekend first - are you sure this is up to date information?
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,359
Location
Bolton
First Class is provided on some Southern services towards Milton Keynes Central, which is mainly enforced north of Watford Junction. All such trains must have a conductor north of Clapham Junction, so they would be the person to ask. These are usually the only Southern services where it could be enforced part-way through the journey. These trains are something of an oddity, in that they are grouped under Metro but run with semi-fast stopping patterns at higher speeds north of Shepherd's Bush.

This is very poor. These trains are shown in the timetable as having First Class throughout.

It is perfectly possible for the train to be loaded into the timetable as having First Class only between certain stations. Somebody with a First Class ticket might be travelling on one of these trains in the area marked for First Class, believing it to be First Class when in fact you are saying Southern may not consider it so.

If Southern would rather not enforce First Class (for example, because no guard, OBS or RPIs can be provided) then it should really not be in the timetable.

At least there is some reasonable consistency in other areas. For example, every train all day from Redhill to East Croydon has First Class. No trains that call at Epsom ever have First Class.
 
Last edited:

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,046
Location
UK
If they removed references to weekend first, shouldn't they edit the remaining text to remove Monday to Friday? Otherwise what happens at the weekend now?
 

lightbulb

Member
Joined
15 May 2010
Messages
444
In addition to the Thameslink "Metro" services mentioned above where any 1st class is declassified, on class 700 trains, 1st class in the rear carriage (whether 4, 8, or 12 cars) is always declassified, and there's an announcement to confirm this on the on-board display in this carriage.

On class 377s, the end 1st class portions are declassified, with magenta- coloured stickers on the doors and windows to indicate this.

I was travelling recently from Elstree & Borehamwood on an 8 car class 700 with Oyster, and being a Metro, all 1st class accomodation was declassified, confirmed by the displays on the platform. I sat in the front 1st class carriage, and an RPI came along and asked me for my 1st class ticket. I presented my Oyster, and he told me it was not valid in 1st class. I mentioned the display on the platform saying thet "the 1st class sections of this train were not in use", but he insisted that this only applied to the rear carriage. I pointed out that all 1st class sections were declassified, as the train was not advertised to convey 1st class. He "let me off".
 

lightbulb

Member
Joined
15 May 2010
Messages
444
Turning to GWR, all class 165s are declassified, and one of the two 1st class compartments on class 166s are declassified. Most of the Thames Valley services booked for both these classes are in any case advertised to convey Std accommodation only, so in practice only a few peak hour services are advertised to convey 1st class.
 

gray1404

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2014
Messages
6,590
Location
Merseyside
I was travelling recently from Elstree & Borehamwood on an 8 car class 700 with Oyster, and being a Metro, all 1st class accomodation was declassified, confirmed by the displays on the platform. I sat in the front 1st class carriage, and an RPI came along and asked me for my 1st class ticket. I presented my Oyster, and he told me it was not valid in 1st class. I mentioned the display on the platform saying thet "the 1st class sections of this train were not in use", but he insisted that this only applied to the rear carriage. I pointed out that all 1st class sections were declassified, as the train was not advertised to convey 1st class. He "let me off".

Please be sure to complain to the company about this. I dread to think what might have happened if you had been able to assert yourself.
 

TrainTube

Member
Joined
24 Sep 2018
Messages
487
No, unless you travel on one of the declassified services.

Oyster is a Standard Class only product.
That isn't completely true, as if a service within the fare zone has a declassified 1st class then oyster users are more than welcome to do it.
 

MikeWh

Established Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
15 Jun 2010
Messages
7,870
Location
Crayford
That isn't completely true, as if a service within the fare zone has a declassified 1st class then oyster users are more than welcome to do it.
Oyster, along with all standard class tickets, are not valid in first class. If 1st class accomodation is declassified then it is treated as if it were standard class.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top