• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Croydon Tramlink

Status
Not open for further replies.

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
I really couldnt find another thread on this so I guess make a main one.

However was down there today for a bit of a bash on them and noticed 2565 was in test mode with signs up saying it still belonged to the makers and not to board(obviously some still tried to lol) and at East Croydon he was checking its clearance to the platform.

Main thing I wanted to know is that this looked brand spankers but I thought they already had their new fleet delivered?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
Out of interest

why have they still not enabled the TVMs to top up your oyster

and is the fencing as you enter Elmers End there because you are entering NR property/
 

paddington

Member
Joined
19 Feb 2013
Messages
964
why have they still not enabled the TVMs to top up your oyster

I don't know but I still see people buying tickets

Others just board the tram and hope for the best when their Oyster double-beeps
 

snowball

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2013
Messages
7,674
Location
Leeds
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40252492

Transport for London (TfL) is to introduce speed monitoring devices on its trams to tell drivers if they are going too fast and to apply the brake.

It comes in the wake of the Croydon tram crash in November. The derailment killed seven people and injured more than 50.

TfL said it was seeking interest from industry to help supply the onboard speed monitoring systems.

Union Aslef welcomed the new system but said it was "belated".

An investigation by the Rail Accidents Investigation Branch (RAIB) found the crashed tram had been travelling at 43.5mph in a 12mph zone and found no evidence of any track defects or obstructions.

Last month London Mayor Sadiq Khan wrote to the RAIB to raise his concerns following allegations tram drivers have fallen asleep at the controls after the BBC revealed four former tram drivers fell asleep while operating trams in Croydon.

Three trams have been recorded speeding since the Croydon crash.
Analysis: Tom Edwards, BBC London transport correspondent

It's early days but TfL are looking to fundamentally change the capital's tram safety systems.

Previously they had been regarded as buses on tracks. Now they are being moved into the realm of light rail with tighter safety measures.

Safety has been in the spotlight since the Croydon disaster but there have also been a number of reports of tram drivers falling asleep at the controls.

This system would prevent speeding, but it could also intervene and apply the brakes if the driver became incapacitated.

Jonathan Fox, TfL's director of London Rail, said the organisation's "thoughts remain with all those affected by the tragic tram derailment" and it continued to "do all we can to offer our support".

He added: "Since the tragic derailment we have been working on the development of an in-cab driver alert system for monitoring and managing tram speed.

"We are now seeking interest from the wider industry to help support us in the development and introduction of that system."

Trevor Sterling, a partner at Moore Blatch solicitors, which has been representing some of the crash survivors, said: "Since we began investigating the tragic Croydon tram disaster, we have repeatedly expressed our view that trams should be regarded more like trains than buses,

"We consider the introduction of automated braking systems, which is welcomed by our clients, to be a very significant part of this necessary change in mindset."
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,793
Location
Nottingham
I'd expect something GPS-based with no on-track equipment. About 1% of the price, useable on streets as well, lower safety integrity but it only needs to intervene on the very rare occasions when there is a dangerous overspeed.
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,029
The tram driver involved in the crash was arrested and later granted police bail 'until May 2017'. As that time has passed, can one take it police bail has been further extended?
 

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
Alfred Dorris was rebailed until September, I guess they are waiting on the final RAIB report.
 

nidave

Member
Joined
12 Jul 2011
Messages
923
From Skyscraper City (which is relevant)

Freel07 said:
The big difference between tram and train is that a tram will at some point along its journey operate on the highway alongside other traffic. When Metrolink first opened in 1992 it didn't really truly share the highway with road traffic. The T68s were fitted with an overspeed device which applied the emergency brakes if it detected the tram was travelling at more than 30mph in street running mode.

When the Eccles Line was being built and the T68As were being designed there was a discussion about this device and whether it could safely be used on true street running sections. The view from HMRI was that it would probably cause more incidents than it would stop. Most car drivers will at some time have been in a situation where they have had to accelerate fairly quickly to avoid an accident and usually this involves slightly exceeding the speed limit. If a tram driver found themselves in that situation and did the same thing any overspeed device would suddenly and without warning apply the emergency brakes potentially causing a following vehicle to collide with the tram and at would also quite likely result in the accident the driver was trying avoid actually happening. When the question was asked 'what speed should the device be set at then to avoid such problems?' the discussion eventually came down in favour of there being no such device. After all a bus does not have one. That was the philosophy upon which the Eccles Line gained approval.

If we now move forward 20 years to recent events any overspeed device would have to be in the form of a warning rather than an active brake application when on street. What is needed is a definitive view of what a tram actually is. Is it a sophisticated bus or a low cost train? Providing an accurate location and combining that with speed detection on Metrolink probably wouldn't be very hard to do since the on tram TMS kit does have a regularly updated location and this is related to a topology database, and the speed probes already provide speed data. However on most other UK systems whilst the speed is accurately known the location of the tram is not known quite so accurately, some form of trackside beacon would really be needed as I do have doubts about whether GPS based location would suffice for what would possibly be deemed a safety critical function. TPWS grids in street would be interesting! j616s comment about signalling contractors and their prices for add-ons is very pertinent.

It will be interesting to see how the Croydon proposal develops. No doubt the UK Tram committees will be very much involved in the development and ensure that all other UK systems follow the results. I see Croydon are requesting cooperation from other operators.
 
Last edited:

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,793
Location
Nottingham
The overturning speed is a lot higher than the posted speed restriction, so if a protection device is only to guard against overturning it doesn't need a huge degree of precision in either speed or position. There are trams with flange lubricators that are triggered by GPS when approaching the curves where lubrication is needed, and the same sort of system would almost certainly be good enough for overspeeds too. The GPS would probably also measure the speed so the only interface to the existing circuits would be a power take-off and a relay in the brake interlock.

I would argue that it doesn't need to be safety-critical either. Trams have operated in the UK for several decades with only one incident of this type, and if you include the much larger tram population and longer history in continental Europe the probability of a driver lapse as at Croydon is very low. So even if the speed monitor isn't to any particular safety integrity level the chances of it failing to intervene at the same time as the tram overspeeds dangerously are vanishingly small. This is on the proviso that it is monitored or checked regularly to ensure it is still working, not having stopped working six months ago with nobody doing anything about it.
 

urpert

Member
Joined
1 Dec 2015
Messages
1,164
Location
Essendine or between Étaples and Rang-du-Fliers
Out of interest

why have they still not enabled the TVMs to top up your oyster

and is the fencing as you enter Elmers End there because you are entering NR property/

Those TVMs are ancient (they're the originals and the same design as those bought by SNCF and RATP around 20 years ago, most of which have been replaced). I'd be surprised if they could be updated to support Oyster and imagine they may be replaced in the coming years. They haven't even yet updated them to accept new £1 coins or £5 notes!
 

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
First Group annual results, they say "It would not be appropriate” to award a cash or deferred shares bonus to Tim O'Toole on top of his £1.24m salary in light of the Croydon crash (received a 1m bonus the year before). Then go on to say in the small print they are awarding him a £2m share bonus deferred till 2020 contingent on Croydon accident inquiry.
 
Last edited:

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
Those TVMs are ancient (they're the originals and the same design as those bought by SNCF and RATP around 20 years ago, most of which have been replaced). I'd be surprised if they could be updated to support Oyster and imagine they may be replaced in the coming years. They haven't even yet updated them to accept new £1 coins or £5 notes!

I can't recall the last time I even saw a person using one...

I wonder if TfL will even bother replacing them (especially given that buses are now fully cashless) - doesn't strike me as particularly "Value for Money"
 

Blindtraveler

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2011
Messages
9,600
Location
Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
I agree, more likely that a small low cost review of Oyster ticket stops on the network is carried out so theres nowhere without one within 5 minutes walk of a platform.

Baring mind that contactless is widely used and that railway booking offices on the network plus of course some TVM's are able to do Oyster topup then I think there is little to worry about in terms of lack of opportunity to pay.
 

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
I can't recall the last time I even saw a person using one...

I wonder if TfL will even bother replacing them (especially given that buses are now fully cashless) - doesn't strike me as particularly "Value for Money"

Theyre not value for money as its far more expensive than the oyster/contactless fare but its staggering that they still have upgraded them. I only asked as I lost my Oyster and was at Waddon Marsh and had to buy a ticker from them.
 

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
I agree, more likely that a small low cost review of Oyster ticket stops on the network is carried out so theres nowhere without one within 5 minutes walk of a platform.

Baring mind that contactless is widely used and that railway booking offices on the network plus of course some TVM's are able to do Oyster topup then I think there is little to worry about in terms of lack of opportunity to pay.

Ive no idea where the nearest shop is to lots fo the tram stops Wandle Park/Waddon Marsh/Ampere way and so on and whilst I know the shop close to Arena its no good if you are out first thing in the morning before the shops open. Should have auto top up enabled really so I have no excuses really but merely pointing out that not everyone will know where local shops are if not from the area.
 

Blindtraveler

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2011
Messages
9,600
Location
Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
Thanks very much for mentioning auto topup, you have reminded me that I have still to update my new card details on TFL as a number of journeys coming up in the next week and auto topup needs reinstating.


on a related note, anyone know of any tramlink weekend closures/disruptions this Sunday?
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
6,232
Location
Torbay
My money is on a balise-based Seltrac derivative.

I would go for an unpowered balise or other simple RfID type beacon device in the four foot, encoded with simple static data about the upcoming speed restriction (identity, distance and speed) and interrogated by each passing tram. Each balise would be placed at the normal braking commencement distance before the start of a SIGNIFICANT restriction that it applied to, a kind of 'tram AWS' associated with a co-located braking commencement sign. There would be no need to interface to any on-board traction control and braking equipment, at least initially. In the cab I would start an audio-visual alarm a few seconds after passing the balise that would continue to flash and sound, becoming increasingly strident, until acknowledged by the driver. When trams are renewed or heavily rebuilt in the future, more sophisticated control improvements could be incorporated to actually enforce action such as applying emergency brakes to a stand if no acknowledgement is received (similar to main line AWS) or actually automatically controlling the vehicle speed down to the target restriction within the distance available. The system would only be applied at significant speed changes on a risk assessed basis. I expect sites chosen would only be approaching the ends of the reserved track sections where higher speed running at up to 80kph is followed immediately by severe curves, transitions to shared road running or signalled junctions (including those protecting single line sections) There should be little problem incorporating the small number of balises in the four foot and even if one is rarely required in road paving, tough modern balise type devices should be possible to embed in the surface if required (unlike fragile TPWS grids). At sites where approach speed is already controlled effectively by a passenger stop immediately before the sharp curve or junction, then I think the advance warning system would probably not be required. A very simple system requiring no powered trackside devices or communications infrastructure, and only very simple functionality on the vehicles.
 

rebmcr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
3,845
Location
St Neots
I would go for an unpowered balise or other simple RfID type beacon device in the four foot, encoded with simple static data about the upcoming speed restriction (identity, distance and speed) and interrogated by each passing tram. Each balise would be placed at the normal braking commencement distance before the start of a SIGNIFICANT restriction that it applied to, a kind of 'tram AWS' associated with a co-located braking commencement sign. There would be no need to interface to any on-board traction control and braking equipment, at least initially. In the cab I would start an audio-visual alarm a few seconds after passing the balise that would continue to flash and sound, becoming increasingly strident, until acknowledged by the driver. When trams are renewed or heavily rebuilt in the future, more sophisticated control improvements could be incorporated to actually enforce action such as applying emergency brakes to a stand if no acknowledgement is received (similar to main line AWS) or actually automatically controlling the vehicle speed down to the target restriction within the distance available. The system would only be applied at significant speed changes on a risk assessed basis. I expect sites chosen would only be approaching the ends of the reserved track sections where higher speed running at up to 80kph is followed immediately by severe curves, transitions to shared road running or signalled junctions (including those protecting single line sections) There should be little problem incorporating the small number of balises in the four foot and even if one is rarely required in road paving, tough modern balise type devices should be possible to embed in the surface if required (unlike fragile TPWS grids). At sites where approach speed is already controlled effectively by a passenger stop immediately before the sharp curve or junction, then I think the advance warning system would probably not be required. A very simple system requiring no powered trackside devices or communications infrastructure, and only very simple functionality on the vehicles.

Excellent detail! :)

Yes, that's pretty much what I had in mind.
 

MK Tom

Established Member
Joined
31 Aug 2011
Messages
2,421
Location
Milton Keynes
Any news on the proposed new loop line west of East Croydon station? TfL ran a consultation then it all went quiet...
 

urpert

Member
Joined
1 Dec 2015
Messages
1,164
Location
Essendine or between Étaples and Rang-du-Fliers
I notice this morning that the "new" PIS screens have finally had a software update so they can display something other than THE NEXT TRAM'S DESTINATION IN CAPITALS (presumably up to this point they'd been controlled by the same software as the original late 90s screens?) The one at Beckenham Jn now shows the next three trams' departure times and platform allocations in mixed case.
 

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,426
Location
nowhere
I notice this morning that the "new" PIS screens have finally had a software update so they can display something other than THE NEXT TRAM'S DESTINATION IN CAPITALS (presumably up to this point they'd been controlled by the same software as the original late 90s screens?) The one at Beckenham Jn now shows the next three trams' departure times and platform allocations in mixed case.

The Wimbledon Branch (and I would have assumed the rest of the system) has had that for a couple of weeks now.
 

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,426
Location
nowhere
Ah ok. Beckenham Jn was one of the last stops to lose its old screens so we might be a bit behind!

I expect that the whole system would have gone live at once, unless you can remember the old system in place at Beckenham Junction in the past few weeks. More weirdly, unless my mind is playing tricks on me, the changeover happened during the day - I caught the tram in the morning and it had the old 2 line system, but when I came home, it had gone to the new one - so it must have been some sort of software change.

It has been a very long project though - I have distinct memories of Dundonald Road (Wimbledon-bound) getting it's "new" display around the time of the building of platform 10b at Wimbledon.
 

RJ

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2005
Messages
8,383
Location
Back office
Not being strongly advertised online at present. From Friday 25/08/17 to Sunday 03/09/17, the Addington branch will be closed for engineering works. A replacement bus service will run between East Croydon and New Addington. Quite likely to be driving for some of the days :)
 
Last edited:

urpert

Member
Joined
1 Dec 2015
Messages
1,164
Location
Essendine or between Étaples and Rang-du-Fliers
I expect that the whole system would have gone live at once, unless you can remember the old system in place at Beckenham Junction in the past few weeks. More weirdly, unless my mind is playing tricks on me, the changeover happened during the day - I caught the tram in the morning and it had the old 2 line system, but when I came home, it had gone to the new one - so it must have been some sort of software change.

It has been a very long project though - I have distinct memories of Dundonald Road (Wimbledon-bound) getting it's "new" display around the time of the building of platform 10b at Wimbledon.

Curious. I am at least certain that the old display formats were in use on the evening of 17th July when I caught an eastbound tram from Lebanon Rd.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top