GWR Class 800

[Domh245]

Given the heavier bi-mode units with diesel and electric traction had to be procured in order to ensure a service could operate prior to completion of the delayed GW route electrification, could these units be switched to the MML in future and be replaced by pure electric Class 800 once the GW routes to Bristol and Cardiff are fully electrified ?

No, the way the contract works means that these units are specifically for GWML core services until the end of contract. Once the wiring is finished, the engines can be removed and they can return to service as pure EMUs, but they won't be moving around.

 

[Envoy]

No, the way the contract works means that these units are specifically for GWML core services until the end of contract. Once the wiring is finished, the engines can be removed and they can return to service as pure EMUs, but they won't be moving around.

What a ridiculous contract this is that says the units that are hybrid can’t be moved somewhere else and replaced by all electric trains - apart from the one small back diesel to limp along. So, if at some later date, say they partly electrify the East Midlands routes out of St.Pancras, they have to order more expensive hybrid trains even though the GWR mainline to Swansea & spurs to Bristol and Oxford could be fully electric. Absolutely bonkers! I suppose this is what happens when you let civil servants draw up contracts?

 

[FGW_DID]

What a ridiculous contract this is that says the units that are hybrid can’t be moved somewhere else and replaced by all electric trains - apart from the one small back diesel to limp along. So, if at some later date, say they partly electrify the East Midlands routes out of St.Pancras, they have to order more expensive hybrid trains even though the GWR mainline to Swansea & spurs to Bristol and Oxford could be fully electric. Absolutely bonkers! I suppose this is what happens when you let civil servants draw up contracts?

No, because they won't be surplus Trains.

GWR were originally destined to get xx amount of hybrid IETs (Class 800) and xx amount of pure EMU (Class 801). Due to the delay in the electrification the decision was taken that the 801s would be turned into hybrids and were therefore renumbered into 800s.

Once electrification is "complete" they can be returned to Class 801s and the GWML will still have the same number of IET units as per the original order.

 

[NotATrainspott]

What a ridiculous contract this is that says the units that are hybrid can’t be moved somewhere else and replaced by all electric trains - apart from the one small back diesel to limp along. So, if at some later date, say they partly electrify the East Midlands routes out of St.Pancras, they have to order more expensive hybrid trains even though the GWR mainline to Swansea & spurs to Bristol and Oxford could be fully electric. Absolutely bonkers! I suppose this is what happens when you let civil servants draw up contracts?

I don't think you understand the modular engine system. The only difference between an electric and a bi-mode one is that the latter has more engine modules in it. Trains can be changed from one to the other at any time in their life with little more than a few hours and a glorified forklift. If self-powered trains are being built at the same time as the engines in other ones are no longer needed, then the engines for the new ones would be sourced from the other trains rather than coming new from the manufacturer.

If too many engines are built for the final number of self-powered sets in existence in the long term, then the engines would end up being used in some other application. As far as I'm aware they're leased from MTU rather than bought outright and they're fairly standard industrial ones anyway.

 

[najaB]

I do. To be honest, I'm losing track of the variants to be used with the GW project overrun.

There aren't that many. If I remember correctly:

• 800 - Bimode
• 801 - Electric
• 802 - Bimode (Not IEP)

 

[Domh245]

There aren't that many. If I remember correctly:

• 800 - Bimode
• 801 - Electric
• 802 - Bimode (Not IEP)

Correct, although 801s can be forgotten about for the foreseeable with regards to GW. The thing to remember is the 800 subclasses - I think /3s were units converted from the 801 pool, whilst the /1s were the original 800 pool (with /2 on the ECML)

Edit: And FWIW, the MML will soon be receiving a fleet of bi-modes anyway, which in all likelihood will be more 802s. It's a pointless discussion anyway - all major intercity routes that need bimodal trains are getting them in the near future, so there shouldn't need to be any re-distribution of fleets anyway

 

[Typhoon_93]

Correct, although 801s can be forgotten about for the foreseeable with regards to GW. The thing to remember is the 800 subclasses - I think /3s were units converted from the 801 pool, whilst the /1s were the original 800 pool (with /2 on the ECML)

Edit: And FWIW, the MML will soon be receiving a fleet of bi-modes anyway, which in all likelihood will be more 802s. It's a pointless discussion anyway - all major intercity routes that need bimodal trains are getting them in the near future, so there shouldn't need to be any re-distribution of fleets anyway

The class 800/3 are not converted from or will be converted too Class 801 they are all built as class 800 bi-modes they have simply taken the coach numbers allocated to the 801/0.

The interesting one is the 9car class 801 at Aycliffe originally destined to become 801001 for GWR but now for VTEC as 801201, however all IEP's have their coach number stamped into the frame so once in service this set will carry a different coach numbers to what's stamped into its frame..

 

[coppercapped]

I don't think you understand the modular engine system. The only difference between an electric and a bi-mode one is that the latter has more engine modules in it. Trains can be changed from one to the other at any time in their life with little more than a few hours and a glorified forklift. If self-powered trains are being built at the same time as the engines in other ones are no longer needed, then the engines for the new ones would be sourced from the other trains rather than coming new from the manufacturer.

If too many engines are built for the final number of self-powered sets in existence in the long term, then the engines would end up being used in some other application. As far as I'm aware they're leased from MTU rather than bought outright and they're fairly standard industrial ones anyway.

That's not quite correct. A representative from Hitachi gave a talk about the approvals process for the Class 80X trains to the IMechE a year or so ago before the DfT had decided whether to convert the IEP electrics order to bi-modes. He gave some details about the change as the flexibility has to be built-in during manufacture.

The bodies have to be built to accept the diesel power packs, fuel tanks, exhausts and extra cabling as certain brackets and small details for these items are left off the straight electric units. It is difficult/comparatively expensive to add these to a completed train.

However, if the train has been built with these fitments, then the case you describe is true - it is possible to convert from one mode to the other quite simply.

 

[Domh245]

The class 800/3 are not converted from or will be converted too Class 801 they are all built as class 800 bi-modes they have simply taken the coach numbers allocated to the 801/0.

The interesting one is the 9car class 801 at Aycliffe originally destined to become 801001 for GWR but now for VTEC as 801201, however all IEP's have their coach number stamped into the frame so once in service this set will carry a different coach numbers to what's stamped into its frame..

Fair enough, I was almost right though. The 800/3s are essentially what was going to be the GW 801s. Re 801001 - This should have become 800301 - so will that unit not exist (ie the fleet starting at 800302) or will some other unit be drafted in to fill that, leaving at least two units with mismatched numbers?

 

[Typhoon_93]

Fair enough, I was almost right though. The 800/3s are essentially what was going to be the GW 801s. Re 801001 - This should have become 800301 - so will that unit not exist (ie the fleet starting at 800302) or will some other unit be drafted in to fill that, leaving at least two units with mismatched numbers?

The Aycliffe build of 800/3 starts at T40/800304 (which has started) so would expect 800301 to come directly from Japan.

 

[spark001uk]

There aren't that many. If I remember correctly:

• 800 - Bimode
• 801 - Electric
• 802 - Bimode (Not IEP)

OK let me get this right, the 802s are going to be built as 800s but with higher output engines and bigger fuel tanks, specifically to run down to the West of England, yes?

I'm just a little confused as to the fact they'll run on the same system as the 800s, which were originally going to serve the west were they not? So how come they're not classed as part of the IEP ?

Do correct me if I'm way off the mark!

 

[Domh245]

OK let me get this right, the 802s are going to be built as 800s but with higher output engines and bigger fuel tanks, specifically to run down to the West of England, yes?

I'm just a little confused as to the fact they'll run on the same system as the 800s, which were originally going to serve the west were they not? So how come they're not classed as part of the IEP ?

Do correct me if I'm way off the mark!

802s are an 800 clone with software tweaks to allow for the higher engine output and the bigger fuel tank. They were specifically for the South West services, + a few Cotswold services, which were originally going to be left with HSTs.

The Intercity Express Programme was only ever intended to cover services to Bristol and South Wales (+ the ECML) from what I can remember which is why the 802s aren't IEP trains. Accordingly, they also come on a different type of contract (conventional lease instead of daily provision style)

 

[E_Reeves]

Fair enough, I was almost right though. The 800/3s are essentially what was going to be the GW 801s. Re 801001 - This should have become 800301 - so will that unit not exist (ie the fleet starting at 800302) or will some other unit be drafted in to fill that, leaving at least two units with mismatched numbers?

I believe 800302 is already in the country, as I saw it at Southampton docks.

 

[Typhoon_93]

802s are an 800 clone with software tweaks to allow for the higher engine output and the bigger fuel tank. They were specifically for the South West services, + a few Cotswold services, which were originally going to be left with HSTs.

The Intercity Express Programme was only ever intended to cover services to Bristol and South Wales (+ the ECML) from what I can remember which is why the 802s aren't IEP trains. Accordingly, they also come on a different type of contract (conventional lease instead of daily provision style)

All class 800 from 800016 have the bigger fuel tanks fitted.. I don't know if the earlier ones will have the bigger tanks retro fitted at a later date..

 

[Typhoon_93]

I believe 800302 is already in the country, as I saw it at Southampton docks.

800302/T38 and 800303/T39 are both now at Doncaster Carr IEP depot.

 

[MML]

Thank you, some very informative responses to my initial question.

So I have another...three

If bi-mode Class 800 is built so it can be switched between bi-mode and electric only use by simply removing the diesel engines, why were some of the fleet original ordered as Class 801 with purely electric traction ?

Surely for fleet commonality and future proofing the fleet for wider route availability, it would have been better to manufacture everything as bi-mode and then just not mount the diesel engines unless they are required ?

Or is there a cost implication with pure electric being cheaper to purchase and operate than bi-mode ?

 

[Domh245]

If bi-mode Class 800 is built so it can be switched between bi-mode and electric only use by simply removing the diesel engines, why were some of the fleet original ordered as Class 801 with purely electric traction ?

Because initially it was expected that there would be enough wiring complete that it would be possible to have some diagrams that were pure EMU workable, avoiding the use of bi-modes

Surely for fleet commonality and future proofing the fleet for wider route availability, it would have been better to manufacture everything as bi-mode and then just not mount the diesel engines unless they are required ?

Or is there a cost implication with pure electric being cheaper to purchase and operate than bi-mode ?

Bi modes are heavier and more expensive to provide & operate, so ideally you would want to minimise unnecessary usage. Worth pointing out that each 801 has got 1 or 2 diesel engines onboard as an emergency backup in the event of de-wirements,

 

[jimm]

802s are an 800 clone with software tweaks to allow for the higher engine output and the bigger fuel tank. They were specifically for the South West services, + a few Cotswold services, which were originally going to be left with HSTs.

The Intercity Express Programme was only ever intended to cover services to Bristol and South Wales (+ the ECML) from what I can remember which is why the 802s aren't IEP trains.

Let's be quite clear about this (yet again) - the engines on Class 800s and Class 802s are identical, with the same maximum power output.

The only difference - and it appears it will not apply now - is that the 800s were meant to operate with the engine management system set to deliver a lower power output in normal operation - however, if an engine fails, then the remaining ones would run at maximum power to compensate.

IEP units (ie Class 800) were always intended to operate most services on the Cotswold Line, with the only issue being how to cover the busiest peak workings which need an HST at present, which is where the nine-car 802s came in (though platforms between Oxford and Worcester are going to be extended to allow 2x5 Class 800 formations to operate as well).

IEP programme operations in the GW area will also include London-Gloucester/Cheltenham, and were also expected to cover some semi-fast services to Taunton and Exeter/Torbay, even before the first batch of 802s was ordered.

 

[800001]

Because initially it was expected that there would be enough wiring complete that it would be possible to have some diagrams that were pure EMU workable, avoiding the use of bi-modes



Bi modes are heavier and more expensive to provide & operate, so ideally you would want to minimise unnecessary usage. Worth pointing out that each 801 has got 1 or 2 diesel engines onboard as an emergency backup in the event of de-wirements,

801s have 1 back up engine.

 

[squizzler]

If bi-mode Class 800 is built so it can be switched between bi-mode and electric only use by simply removing the diesel engines, <snip>

I am intrigued by the hole left in the unit once the engine is remained. Is there any proposed use for this "priest hole"?

Railway platforms get in the way of using it for luggage as per highway motor coach practice. Could some robotic loading system in future upload parcels from between the rails?

How about using the space as a beer cellar to provide draft at the buffet?

The hidden space would be ideal for contraband! Smuggling revenues might help offset passenger fares! As for its use as a priest hole, that'll be why many of the overseas state railways running British services are from Catholic countries!

 

[PaulHarding150]

Great marketing ploy for GWR coming up this autumn.

The first Class 800 is due to be introduced in October and Flybe are scrapping their Cardiff - London flights

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/airline-flybe-scrapping-cardiff-airport-13452339

Flybe played an ace card last year not only with the introduction of this route but in their heavy marketing/promotion of it.

Your move GWR.

 

[Reliablebeam]

I've seen quite a few 80xs operating what i assume are tests around Didcot these last few days. Just seen one Azuma pull into Didcot under electric then seem to spool up the diesel part. This seemed quieter than a lot of modern DMUs but obviously I didn't hear it power out the stayion. There seemed to be someone in one of the carriages with a bank of PCs and monitors. There was also a class 800 seemingly waiting outwith the station on the Wantage road side.

 

[DidcotDickie]

I've seen quite a few 80xs operating what i assume are tests around Didcot these last few days. Just seen one Azuma pull into Didcot under electric then seem to spool up the diesel part. This seemed quieter than a lot of modern DMUs but obviously I didn't hear it power out the stayion. There seemed to be someone in one of the carriages with a bank of PCs and monitors. There was also a class 800 seemingly waiting outwith the station on the Wantage road side.

Quite a bit of class 800 testing and driver training happening this week.

Here's what it sounds like powering out of the station on diesel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vnbJH57MQo

It's very quiet!

 

[Master29]

As an aside. Why were 7 extra 9 car 802`s ordered for the Cotswolds line? Was this not considered in the original IEP project? I thought these extra 7 units were for the West of England routes.

 

[leomartin125]

Quite a bit of class 800 testing and driver training happening this week.

Here's what it sounds like powering out of the station on diesel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vnbJH57MQo

It's very quiet!

Indeed, I spent a few hours at Didcot today and managed to catch three different IET test runs between 12pm and 1pm! Also managed to cab 800101, which was awesome. The windscreen really is huge inside! But I could see myself in the driving seat for good, feels like a young mans train very similar to the 395 inside. Lots of screens and computers to tell you all about the train, all which will eventually be linked in Hitachi's 'Virtual World' to a central server that the TOC and Hitachi will be able to access to tell real time information like issues and the state of certain facilities on the train, which will make maintenance a lot quicker, especially with the depots already knowing that for example ' Set 800028 has a worn pantograph that will need replacing tonight' so that the set can be worked on throughout the night and back into service the next day like nothing happened! I understand how Hitachi want it to work, efficiently and successfully, pity the wires aren't being being funded by Hitachi!

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NU3b77cTyDk

 

[D1009]

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NU3b77cTyDk

I think Sir Richard Branson would like the first 5 mins or so of that video, he'd probably offer you a job in his publicity department.

 

[swt_passenger]

As an aside. Why were 7 extra 9 car 802`s ordered for the Cotswolds line? Was this not considered in the original IEP project? I thought these extra 7 units were for the West of England routes.

I think part of the extra 802 order was to allow for a different overall rolling stock strategy entirely, as it also coincided with the number of four car EMUs being significantly reduced. The reduced number of EMU vehicles (i.e. no 365s incoming - but more 387s) is in the same ballpark as the increased number of 802 vehicles.

In other words they are not just for the Cotswolds route, but also allow for trains that run to Oxford, that might have originally been purely EMU, or to Bedwyn, which was to have been a DMU shuttle.

I also believe that the original GW franchise brief already spoke of some IEP operated services on the north Cotswolds, even before the original 802s were confirmed. That suggests that the latest intentions are an addition to whatever the earlier plans were.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The extra seven units were ordered to facilitate the move of some 5 cars onto the Bedwyns, the use of 80x sets on the fast Oxfords and also to cater for the fact that, as part of the bi-modalisation agreement between Agility and the DfT, only 17 of the Agility 9 car sets will now be available for traffic instead of the original 18.

The planned use of the 80x units on the North Cotswolds remains unchanged.

 

[33Hz]

Testing at Dawlish.

http://www.devonlive.com/test-runs-...-carried-out/story-30475296-detail/story.html

 

[E_Reeves]

800010 was on this: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97183/2017/08/10/advanced