Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

[SpacePhoenix]

I guess that'll be getting ready for a SWR makeover then, and/or driver training? It'll need its shoegear refitting and an overhaul too I assume, if not retractioning also?

And the footboards at the doors will also need refitting as they appear to be missing

 

[CosherB]

And the footboards at the doors will also need refitting as they appear to be missing

I'm sure they've got that covered.

 

[spark001uk]

Na, get the 546's rewound! :froth:

 

[antharro]

I wonder if they'll do a part-job on them before introducing them to service - i.e., do the repaint, put in service, then pull out of service to do interior, then back in, then out again for the motors? Wouldn't work on slow services, but could be workable on fasts.

I hope they put decent interiors in them; the original seats were great and Southern's refurb was crap (except first; location was good and I'm pretty sure those seats are ex-HST ). I like the ambient lighting too; much less harsh on the eyes than most other modern stocks.

Rewound 546s would be so nice but also so not going to happen. Would be nice if NSERS could get hold of some of the decomissioned equipment as I have a hunch they'lll end up saving a set once they're finally retired.

 

[MatthewRead]

What about Alliance Rail have they been given the go ahead yet for Waterloo-Southampton?

 

[43096]

I hope they put decent interiors in them; the original seats were great and Southern's refurb was crap (except first; location was good and I'm pretty sure those seats are ex-HST ). I like the ambient lighting too; much less harsh on the eyes than most other modern stocks.

Seats were new for the 442s when Southern did the refurb.

Agree on the lighting.

 

[RichSwitch]

I know SWR is taking the 442s for the PMH to WAT fasts. If they are to be stabled at Bournemouth, then surely it would also make sense to use the 442s on Portsmouth to Weymouth services. I'm thinking that if they're oustationed at Fratton, then when they require maintenance/exam it's going to result in a lot of dead mileage otherwise. Not to mention pathways.
Before you all leap on my back, as a passenger I really don't understand the 'emotional attachment' that many people seem to have to the 442. To my mind they're life expired. Even to say they will be returned to as new condition (albeit 2018 rather than 1988 standard) is akin to that old saying "you can't polish a...". If - as we're led to believe - new trains are so cheap (comparatively) at present, and bearing in mind 707 will be dumped, then why bother? By that argument it has to be cheaper to order extra carriages to include Portsmouth services.
True, the Portsmouth line really needs 2+2 seating, but the worry is it ends up being treated like a Tesco Finest version of Island Line.
My feeling is that First/MTR have gambled on the long game. In 5 years time we'll see if that gamble is starting to pay off.
Don't even get me started on the awful logo branding and depressing new livery.

 

[D365]

Are you suggested that First Group or MTR has some kind of romantic attachment to the Class 442s?

 

[spark001uk]

I think the reason for the 442s is that they can have them immediately (albeit after whatever needs doing to them). They want to press them into service and get extra people shifted early on in the franchise, first impressions and all that. That's how I interpreted it anyway.

 

[Domh245]

I would have thought that the move earlier today would be related to retractioning. The initial 455 conversions were done at Bournemouth, so it isn't a huge leap of the imagination to think that the initial 442 will be done there as well. Would also make sense as it is likely going to be one of the longer lead time items in the refurbishment scheme.

 

[47802]

I know SWR is taking the 442s for the PMH to WAT fasts. If they are to be stabled at Bournemouth, then surely it would also make sense to use the 442s on Portsmouth to Weymouth services. I'm thinking that if they're oustationed at Fratton, then when they require maintenance/exam it's going to result in a lot of dead mileage otherwise. Not to mention pathways.
Before you all leap on my back, as a passenger I really don't understand the 'emotional attachment' that many people seem to have to the 442. To my mind they're life expired. Even to say they will be returned to as new condition (albeit 2018 rather than 1988 standard) is akin to that old saying "you can't polish a...". If - as we're led to believe - new trains are so cheap (comparatively) at present, and bearing in mind 707 will be dumped, then why bother? By that argument it has to be cheaper to order extra carriages to include Portsmouth services.
True, the Portsmouth line really needs 2+2 seating, but the worry is it ends up being treated like a Tesco Finest version of Island Line.
My feeling is that First/MTR have gambled on the long game. In 5 years time we'll see if that gamble is starting to pay off.
Don't even get me started on the awful logo branding and depressing new livery.

Don't the 442's effectively account for a large part of the promised extra capacity and can be got back into Service more quickly than a new build, they may also of course got a very good leasing deal.

 

[spark001uk]

Don't the 442's effectively account for a large part of the promised extra capacity and can be got back into Service more quickly than a new build, they may also of course got a very good leasing deal.

Is there an echo in here?

 

[47802]

Is there an echo in here?

Sorry I hadn't seen your post when I wrote that, you beat me to it.

 

[antharro]

Seats were new for the 442s when Southern did the refurb.

Same style as what FGW (at the time) had in their HSTs.

I think the reason for the 442s is that they can have them immediately (albeit after whatever needs doing to them).

In theory they could have them right now, but last time these were out of use for a while they weren't exactly reliable at first - one even set itself on fire at Brighton, IIRC. And some of them have been in cold store, so goodness knows what condition they're in now. Plus, those Southern interiors... :-\

Before you all leap on my back, as a passenger I really don't understand the 'emotional attachment' that many people seem to have to the 442.

Most of those who travelled on these trains when they were new, and during their time with SWT tend to remember them as extremely comfortable trains. (Obviously with any train there are people who don't like them!) Based on the Mk3 carriage, fitted out with compartments in 1st, comfortable seating throughout, good ambient lighting, excellent ride quality... there was a lot to like. Travelling on these was a generally pleasant experience - especially with the snug next to the buffet for a comfortable pint on the way home! And for those who cared about such things, the EE546s make a fantastic sound at top speed. So unlike a lot of other trains before and since, they had a lot of character. They were the flagship of Network SouthEast in their day.

Given that plenty of Mk3 based carriages are still in daily use, it's not a stretch to suggest these could be kept in use for a while longer. A full re-fit and re-traction would bring them up to modern standards, and as the Mk3 bodyshells are (presumably) believed to be in good condition, it makes sense.

There have been rumours that the odd one might end up on a Weymouth service, or at least a Poole... I can only hope!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree - they are basically the Mk3 coach with pretty much all the flaws taken out, notably:-

- Seating with movable armrests instead of horrid IC70s
- Power doors rather than slamdoors
- Lighting much more subdued (the Mk3b solved this too, but only FOs were built, no TSOs)
- End vestibule doors not banging back and forward all the time (no pressure pad)
- (I think) Improved ride because of different bogie type

It's a real pity the Mk3 LHCS wasn't built like that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Same style as what FGW (at the time) had in their HSTs.

They're not. FGW HSTs have only had IC70s and Grammers.

 

[spark001uk]

Funny you should say that, as the gwr lhcs riviera stock is about to lose the last subdued lighting coaches with their ic70 recliners in favour of bolt upright ironing board airline seats, not exactly welcomed by most of the pax so far!

I went on the ROG 442 tour to Poole last year, and the ride quality was superb.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Somehow doubt they'll reseat them, I suspect the as new refurb will be seat covers/carpets, LED lights and power sockets, repainting throughout and obviously the new traction guear and 2020 mods.

 

[spark001uk]

Somehow doubt they'll reseat them, I suspect the as new refurb will be seat covers/carpets, LED lights and power sockets, repainting throughout and obviously the new traction guear and 2020 mods.

Didn't I hear somewhere that the door apertures aren't actually wide enough to meet the 2020 standard?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If they end up getting new seating, I hope it'll be as close as possible to their original style seating. Can the snug and buffet be easily put back?

Do many people take bikes on the Waterloo-Portsmouth services? If they do, would it be worth restoring the guard's van area?

 

[43096]

If they end up getting new seating, I hope it'll be as close as possible to their original style seating. Can the snug and buffet be easily put back?

Do many people take bikes on the Waterloo-Portsmouth services? If they do, would it be worth restoring the guard's van area?

How much use is made of the 444 catering areas? Is a buffet service promised as part of the new franchise? Does other stock in the area have a guard's van?

Answer those questions and you have it!

 

[47802]

If they end up getting new seating, I hope it'll be as close as possible to their original style seating. Can the snug and buffet be easily put back?

Do many people take bikes on the Waterloo-Portsmouth services? If they do, would it be worth restoring the guard's van area?

They have around 30 seats more than in SWT config ok some of that is due to reduced 1st class, but given they will be running on route that has had 3+2 seating to maximise capacity do you think they will want to loose those 30 extra seats per unit?

 

[swt_passenger]

I know SWR is taking the 442s for the PMH to WAT fasts. If they are to be stabled at Bournemouth, then surely it would also make sense to use the 442s on Portsmouth to Weymouth services. I'm thinking that if they're oustationed at Fratton, then when they require maintenance/exam it's going to result in a lot of dead mileage otherwise. Not to mention pathways.

Taking them to Bournemouth now is no indication that they will eventually be based there permanently. They will almost certainly be stabled at Fratton, with some 444s and 450s displaced to make room; and will only go to Bournemouth now and again for significant maintenance. The new traction package ought to reduce the maintenance requirement.

There won't be enough to use them anywhere other than Portsmouth fasts.

 

[JonathanH]

There won't be enough to use them anywhere other than Portsmouth fasts.

Is there some indication as to how are they going to be used only on Portsmouth Fasts given the current interworking between slow and fast services at Waterloo - is there a timetable recast of some sort?

 

[pompeyfan]

Is there some indication as to how are they going to be used only on Portsmouth Fasts given the current interworking between slow and fast services at Waterloo - is there a timetable recast of some sort?

There's a small timetable change in December 2018 apparently.

 

[emil]

Is there some indication as to how are they going to be used only on Portsmouth Fasts given the current interworking between slow and fast services at Waterloo - is there a timetable recast of some sort?

A New timetable will be produced to start December 2018 to have these units on Portsmouth London fast peak time trains as fixed 10 coach trains.

 

[swt_passenger]

A New timetable will be produced to start December 2018 to have these units on Portsmouth London fast peak time trains as fixed 10 coach trains.

All day 2 tph fast trains surely?

 

[Emblematic]

Didn't I hear somewhere that the door apertures aren't actually wide enough to meet the 2020 standard?

They don't actually meet the PRM-TSI standard (so would not be permitted in a new unit) but the assessment by DfT is that the door is sufficiently accessible to continue in use beyond 2020 without any further work - which of course would be major to widen the door aperture. RIR 2011 allows for dispensations where a particular item is outside limits set down, but the essential requirement has been met.

 

[CosherB]

If they end up getting new seating, I hope it'll be as close as possible to their original style seating. Can the snug and buffet be easily put back?

I really think you need to revisit your priorities when looking at train refurbs. :roll:

 

[physics34]

Funny you should say that, as the gwr lhcs riviera stock is about to lose the last subdued lighting coaches with their ic70 recliners in favour of bolt upright ironing board airline seats, not exactly welcomed by most of the pax so far!

I went on the ROG 442 tour to Poole last year, and the ride quality was superb.

have also heard the same complaints. Its getting more and more ridiculous with uncomfortable seating being installed on trains in this country.

There HAS to be a department among the DfT, RDG or the TOCs themselves that does research on such things and has to understand that going for the cheapest surely isnt a necessity, especially when the seats will last at least half of the life of the train.

We know there are regulations but surely not to the point that ANYONE with a bad lower back or some extra weight will have a very uncomfortable journey.