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(Mis)managed Motorways

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The Lad

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Merrily trundling along the M62 and the speed restrictions step down to 40mph, it looks as though they are about to set up a lane closure. Next 7 or so signs are blank until the end of the managed section where the fixed national speed limit sign marks the end of the managed Motorway. Junction joining slip road signs don't appear to be illuminated. What speed applies in the blank section?
 
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greatkingrat

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I'm not sure about that, there is an obligation to provide regular repeater warning signs where a lower speed limit than the national speed limit applies. If one sign was blank it would probably still be enforceable, but if seven signs in a row are all blank I don't think any prosecution would succeed.

Maybe the speed restriction was just ending as you passed through and so the signs had been switched off?
 

AlterEgo

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I'm not sure about that, there is an obligation to provide regular repeater warning signs where a lower speed limit than the national speed limit applies. If one sign was blank it would probably still be enforceable, but if seven signs in a row are all blank I don't think any prosecution would succeed.

Maybe the speed restriction was just ending as you passed through and so the signs had been switched off?

Regardless of whether a prosecution would succeed or not, the speed limit is still 40mph, in my view. IANAL.
 

PeterC

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On motoring forums it is generally stated that a limit applies until the next sign. In any event there is no consistency about the display of an NSL sign at the end of a limit.
 

tspaul26

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On a 'smart' motorway, if the VSL indicator is blank then the national speed limit applies.
 

Bletchleyite

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And is how enforcement will work. Even if a picture was erroneously taken, the display elements are connected via optical fibre to the camera, so any picture will always include what the sign was *actually* showing and not just what it was meant to be.

Blank sign = NSL until the next one.

You don't always see the NSL "zero" symbol at the end of a reduced limit, sometimes they just all turn off.
 

PeterC

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Of course you then get the situation where the limit is in place for work that requires turning off the power to the next display.
 

Lrd

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Of course you then get the situation where the limit is in place for work that requires turning off the power to the next display.
I'm sure they'd either have a backup power supply or will put out old fashioned non-digital signs instead
 

jon0844

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I'm not sure about that, there is an obligation to provide regular repeater warning signs where a lower speed limit than the national speed limit applies. If one sign was blank it would probably still be enforceable, but if seven signs in a row are all blank I don't think any prosecution would succeed.

Maybe the speed restriction was just ending as you passed through and so the signs had been switched off?

They should take that into account and keep the NSL ones lit so everyone will see it and there will be no 'is it or isn't it?' concern. I've had many times (late at night around the times they take or release 'possession') where you get a reduced speed limit and then nothing ever again.
 

AlterEgo

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Interestingly, the law says this:

2) A section of road is subject to a variable speed limit in relation to a vehicle being driven on it if—

(a)the road is specified in the Schedule;

(b)the vehicle has passed a speed limit sign; and

(c)the vehicle has not passed—

(i)another speed limit sign indicating a different speed limit; or

(ii)a traffic sign which indicates that the national speed limit is in force.

This says you must abide by the 40mph speed limit given until you pass a traffic sign indiciating the NSL is in force.

I am not certain a blank sign indicates the NSL is in force from a legal perspective. It certainly isn’t in the Highway Code! In fact I’d be sure that the absence of information on any sign doesn’t signify anything at all on any road.

Source: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/793/regulation/3/made
 
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Bletchleyite

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This says you must abide by the 40mph speed limit given until you pass a traffic sign indiciating the NSL is in force.

That's interesting as that is definitely not how the system actually works, because you won't necessarily pass a NSL sign depending on how you exit the limit.

There are basically two scenarios to doing so. One is that there is a limit on a specific stretch, which you proceed through at (say) 40mph then exit. On exiting you see the NSL "computer zero" on the displays.

The other is that the limit is removed while you are on the 40mph stretch because the hazard/congestion requiring it has gone. In this case the signs are all just blanked, the "zero" does not show.

Because of the latter, and because of the conventions, I can't see any attempted conviction succeeding, nor indeed being attempted in the first place (particularly given that, as I stated above, the actual displays are echoed on the photographs via optical fibre).

For what you say to hold true the signs would have to either display the "zero" at all times when not showing a lower limit, or be set up to show it when a limit is removed until the last car that entered when it showed a limit had left.
 

AlterEgo

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That's interesting as that is definitely not how the system actually works, because you won't necessarily pass a NSL sign depending on how you exit the limit.

There are basically two scenarios to doing so. One is that there is a limit on a specific stretch, which you proceed through at (say) 40mph then exit. On exiting you see the NSL "computer zero" on the displays.

The other is that the limit is removed while you are on the 40mph stretch because the hazard/congestion requiring it has gone. In this case the signs are all just blanked, the "zero" does not show.

Because of the latter, and because of the conventions, I can't see any attempted conviction succeeding, nor indeed being attempted in the first place (particularly given that, as I stated above, the actual displays are echoed on the photographs via optical fibre).

For what you say to hold true the signs would have to either display the "zero" at all times when not showing a lower limit, or be set up to show it when a limit is removed until the last car that entered when it showed a limit had left.

I can't see any conviction succeeding either, but nonetheless, it does appear to be the law. I note that this is at odds with the Government's own guidance on how motorists should use smart motorways, too.

I can't recall ever exiting a variable restriction on a blank sign, though it obviously must be very common.

It is interesting from a legal perspective - the idea that a blank sign itself is an instruction, order, or advisory to a driver.
 

The Lad

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It is not uncommon on the M62 for this to happen in the evenings at least. Daytime usually gets the National sign displayed with rarely any blanks. In most cases you can see two signs at once. I just have visions of being pulled up for going too slowly!
 

cactustwirly

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I agree that it should be the NSL, if you think about a streetlit road is always 30, unless there are signs saying otherwise.
Same applies with motorways, they are always NSL, unless there are speed limit signs.
 

Domh245

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The other consideration as to what speed I do, particularly when it is busy, is what speed other vehicles are doing - If they have all slowed down, then I'll match their lower speed, if they haven't, I'll keep on going at the higher speed. In my mind, that is far safer than slowing down with the danger of then being hit at a far greater speed difference by some inattentive driver.
 

GB

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When passing an unlit variable speed sign/gantry following a speed restriction I have always increased my speed to 70mph on motorways and touch wood, so far I have had no issues. There needs to be a level of common sense. I think its unreasonable to expect a driver to keep at the restricted speed limit after passing blank gantries as its far to dangerous to sit at 40-50mph for miles on end untill you reach a sign saying otherwise...which you may not do anyway. Also, what about those that have joined from services, slip road or hard shoulder?
 

skyhigh

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I've often wondered about this - a couple of months ago I had a situation where the signs were all set up for overnight works that weren't due to start for another hour or so. The speed limit went down to 40, and then all lanes closed one-by-one until you were left in the filter lane to come off at the next junction. At that point, all signs thereafter were blank and everyone went back to using all lanes again. Obviously if the signs are showing a red X on the other lanes once you're in the filter lane the road is closed, but that wasn't the case here.
 

Bletchleyite

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I've often wondered about this - a couple of months ago I had a situation where the signs were all set up for overnight works that weren't due to start for another hour or so. The speed limit went down to 40, and then all lanes closed one-by-one until you were left in the filter lane to come off at the next junction. At that point, all signs thereafter were blank and everyone went back to using all lanes again. Obviously if the signs are showing a red X on the other lanes once you're in the filter lane the road is closed, but that wasn't the case here.

Interesting. Legally you should I guess have left the motorway as by putting up the Xs it was closed.
 

skyhigh

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Interesting. Legally you should I guess have left the motorway as by putting up the Xs it was closed.

Indeed, although the fact there were at least two blank gantries afterwards confused the situation - if they had the Xs as well it would have been clear the road was closed.

There was also the fact there were old-fashioned temporary signs by the side of the road saying "Road closed here 22.00-05.00" with the dates, and the time was only about 20.45! Maybe it's possible to schedule signs to come on at certain times, and it had been mis-programmed?
 

PeterC

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I'm sure they'd either have a backup power supply or will put out old fashioned non-digital signs instead
I would have expected so but, as I do quite a bit of motorway driving, I can assure you that this isn't always the case.
 

PeterC

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Interesting. Legally you should I guess have left the motorway as by putting up the Xs it was closed.
If all running lanes were "x" then you should have left the motorway. There is another silly situation on the M25 where clockwise lane 1 gets a red x just before junction 24, supposedly forbidding exit at that junction. In fact the closure is for an obstruction after the junction. Nobody leaving the motorway pays any attention.
 

TheEdge

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My understanding of the Highway Code has always been if no signage is provided NSL applies, so 70 on dual carriageways, 60 on normal roads or 30 on roads with streetlights.

I fairly regularly drive on the M42 and M5 around and south of Birmingham and happily drive at 70 if nothing is shown on the screens, not had a ticket yet.
 

47802

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Allegedly aren't the speed cameras only supposed to work if speed limit is showing on the screens, and even then allegedly they are only set for the highest speed limit below the NSL ie 60mph, so if the sign was set to 40mph but you were doing 60mph it still wouldn't trigger the speed camera, not that I would like to test that out.

On the M62 the other week the speed limits were all over the place very confusing along with some blanks in between, I did see 1 car trigger the camera on a 50 but I reckon they must have been doing about 70
 
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