Paperless rail tickets across UK by 2019 - Chris Grayling

[6Gman]

There are still many areas of the country in rural parts where there is no mobile reception even for making phone calls, so the internet is certainly not available. I’m also not talking about really remote valleys in the Scottish Highlands.

I live within 200m of the WCML; within two miles of Crewe station; our mobile reception only works (sometimes) if we go out into the street or upstairs. Even then it can cut out at random. Hardly ideal for a ticketing transaction.

I welcome options - m-tickets, e-tickets, or x-y-z-tickets! But not to the detriment of buying a ticket from a human being who can, for example, explain ATW's recent off-peak/ peak rules ...

 

[AlterEgo]

I welcome options - m-tickets, e-tickets, or x-y-z-tickets! But not to the detriment of buying a ticket from a human being who can, for example, explain ATW's recent off-peak/ peak rules ...

This, again, is really only an argument that the ticketing system ought to be simplified. It shouldn’t take a trained professional to sell the proper ticket to someone. It cannot be the case that it’s easier and simpler to pay £800 for a return plane ticket to Australia without any human intervention, yet a journey between two small English towns needs a trained person sitting in an office to tell you what’s best for you.

It’s also another reason why there’s great benefit in moving towards smarter fulfilment. A simple, smart way of fulfilling tickets is a catalyst for simpler ticketing. Oyster/contactless for example is very simple, at least from the layperson’s perspective. You tap in and out and you don’t need to worry about whether you have the correct ticket, because you cannot ever pay the “wrong” fare risking prosecution - any passenger or TOC mistake comes to light afterwards and can be rectified later. Sure, you can buy a cash fare if you want, but it’ll cost you.

I find it difficult to understand some of the hostility towards genuine attempts to improve and simplify the fare structure. A lot of posters here benefit from knowing loopholes or hidden benefits in the current system, which they will lose if fares are simplified. I will also “lose out”, too. But as an enthusiast and someone that cares about the passenger experience, it would be much better to start by grasping the ideal, and working backwards through discussion to make sure it happens. The railway will not be the only agency involved in working towards this panacea.

 

[Llanigraham]

Can you think of anyone in this thread that doesn’t accept that? Bearing in mind my previous detailed replies of course.

I suggest you read Ashworth's comment again!

Your "proposal" seems to do nothing but complicate ticketing even more, and does absolutely nothing to encourage people to use the train.

 

[6Gman]

It’s also another reason why there’s great benefit in moving towards smarter fulfilment. A simple, smart way of fulfilling tickets is a catalyst for simpler ticketing. Oyster/contactless for example is very simple, at least from the layperson’s perspective. You tap in and out and you don’t need to worry about whether you have the correct ticket, because you cannot ever pay the “wrong” fare risking prosecution - any passenger or TOC mistake comes to light afterwards and can be rectified later.

There are plenty of examples on the Disputes & Prosecutions section of this very Forum of people getting into a legal mess even with Oyster cards.

 

[jon0844]

There are still many areas of the country in rural parts where there is no mobile reception even for making phone calls, so the internet is certainly not available. I’m also not talking about really remote valleys in the Scottish Highlands.

This time last year I was on holiday on the Northumberland Coast just north of Alnmouth and the phone reception along the whole coast right up to Berwick Upon Tweed was very patchy. It wasn’t too bad a few miles inland close to the A1 but along the actual coast even in the villages there was no signal whatsoever. It seemed to be a very large area without any reliable signal. This isn’t an isolated case but did seem unusual over such a wide area. There are many villages throughout the country ,even in the affluent south, where mobile reception is not available.

Those who live in large urban areas, who spend so much time on their smartphones, perhaps do not realise that for some people who live in rural areas, a smartphone is of little use. Even where I live in Nottinghamshire, there are villages, where I cannot even make a phone call on my iPhone.

That should be less of a problem by 2020, as long as you're on EE at least. Hundreds of new sites going in to fill those dead spots.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are plenty of examples on the Disputes & Prosecutions section of this very Forum of people getting into a legal mess even with Oyster cards.

And the problem of bus touch-ins not always being stored properly has not been solved (it happened to me - fortunately the inspector believed me and did not issue a PF).

TfL did not ever reply to my complaint. I suspect this is because they know full well there is a problem and will not solve it.

 

[181]

Oyster/contactless for example is very simple, at least from the layperson’s perspective

If Oyster is simple, why does someone (a member of these forums, I believe) feel the need to provide a multi-page website about how to use it?

I'm only an occasional user, as when I'm in London I usually have either a paper outboundary Travelcard or a through ticket to somewhere the other side of London, so it might seem simpler to people who are more familiar with it, but it seems to me that it's only simple for simple journeys (e.g. getting on a bus and paying the flat fare) and not for more complicated ones; and I'm uncomfortable with a system where you usually don't know how much you've paid unless you take the time to check afterwards* (keeping track of the amount that flashes up briefly when you pass through a barrier isn't a very user-friendly way of monitoring what you're paying). I'd be even less comfortable using a contactless card allowing the system to take money directly from my bank account.

*I can't even do that, as my card isn't registered, but I presume for regular users it's worth registering.

On the wider question, I would tend to agree with Bletchleyite that there's a lot to be said for the ticket being a database record and the passenger having a choice over what they use to show that they have one. I wouldn't want to be reliant on an electronic device, but when I have the opportunity to print my own ticket (which I don't always) I'd be happy to do that. The stumbling block would appear to be that the railway needs to find a way to prevent the use of multiple copies of the same ticket without restricting the passenger's rights (which I gather is a problem with existing m-tickets) or mistakenly identifying tickets as reused (I don't want to get prosecuted over a misread barcode).

 

[AlterEgo]

I suggest you read Ashworth's comment again!

Your "proposal" seems to do nothing but complicate ticketing even more, and does absolutely nothing to encourage people to use the train.

I suggest you read my post #108 where I explicitly acknowledged that mobile coverage is far from universal - at the moment - before claiming I have missed that point or don’t accept that there are some areas of the country without proper phone reception.

The point is, you simply are not concerned whatsoever with how to improve or simplify ticketing, and offer no solution, no forward thinking or innovation - just criticism. Can I suggest that if you disagree with a proposal, that you suggest an alternative that isn’t “keep everything as it is”, because “as it is” is wholly unsatisfactory, as passengers and the media keep telling the industry.

Moving towards Smart ticketing and non-paper ticketing absolutely encourages more people to use the train. The uptake of contactless payment on London’s buses and rail system is testament to this in itself. And there are lots of older people, as well as socially and digitally disconnected people in London, as well as West Wales.

FWIW, I am not advocating the total removal of the paper ticket, merely suggesting that those who fulfil their ticket that way pay for it. If there are really that many who want to stick with paper, then you might raise enough money to save or reopen a few ticket offices! Don’t bank on it though.

 

[AlterEgo]

If Oyster is simple, why does someone (a member of these forums, I believe) feel the need to provide a multi-page website about how to use it?

Oyster is simple to use from the perspective of the layperson who does not think twice about all the many idiosyncrasies of the system. I was careful to state that it was only simple to a layperson. In reality, at the back end, it is extremely complex. (Though less complex than the thousands of easements, negative easements, etc etc on paper tickets!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oyster is simple to use from the perspective of the layperson who does not think twice about all the many idiosyncrasies of the system. I was careful to state that it was only simple to a layperson. In reality, at the back end, it is extremely complex. (Though less complex than the thousands of easements, negative easements, etc etc on paper tickets!)

Oyster would have been way easier if instead of trying to make it implement a fare structure designed for paper tickets it had a new one from scratch in the way the Dutch did with the OV-Chipkaart - a simple flat starting rate plus X per vehicle-km set by operator/mode.

 

[AlterEgo]

Oyster would have been way easier if instead of trying to make it implement a fare structure designed for paper tickets it had a new one from scratch in the way the Dutch did with the OV-Chipkaart - a simple flat starting rate plus X per vehicle-km set by operator/mode.

I agree entirely.

 

[181]

Oyster is simple to use from the perspective of the layperson who does not think twice about all the many idiosyncrasies of the system. I was careful to state that it was only simple to a layperson. In reality, at the back end, it is extremely complex.

But the site I mentioned is written for users, i.e. mostly laypeople.

 

[Llanigraham]

I suggest you read my post #108 where I explicitly acknowledged that mobile coverage is far from universal - at the moment - before claiming I have missed that point or don’t accept that there are some areas of the country without proper phone reception.

And yet you keep suggesting methods that are ONLY available when there is full internet and mobile phone facilities.
Make your mind up.

The point is, you simply are not concerned whatsoever with how to improve or simplify ticketing, and offer no solution, no forward thinking or innovation - just criticism. Can I suggest that if you disagree with a proposal, that you suggest an alternative that isn’t “keep everything as it is”, because “as it is” is wholly unsatisfactory, as passengers and the media keep telling the industry.

So keeping it as it is, is not a solution?
Who says it is wholly unsatisfactory? I have plenty of train using friends who are quite happy with the way it works at the moment.

Moving towards Smart ticketing and non-paper ticketing absolutely encourages more people to use the train. The uptake of contactless payment on London’s buses and rail system is testament to this in itself. And there are lots of older people, as well as socially and digitally disconnected people in London, as well as West Wales.

Does it? Several recent postings in this thread, and numerous postings in other sections says otherwise, as the system is not perfect and does not work for everyone.

FWIW, I am not advocating the total removal of the paper ticket, merely suggesting that those who fulfil their ticket that way pay for it. If there are really that many who want to stick with paper, then you might raise enough money to save or reopen a few ticket offices! Don’t bank on it though.

No, you are suggesting making the system more complicated and more expensive to some users, and that is NOT the way to encourage use.

 

[Llanigraham]

Oyster is simple to use from the perspective of the layperson who does not think twice about all the many idiosyncrasies of the system. I was careful to state that it was only simple to a layperson. In reality, at the back end, it is extremely complex. (Though less complex than the thousands of easements, negative easements, etc etc on paper tickets!)

I use Oyster when I have to go to London for meetings and the ONLY simple thing about it is the tapping. I cannot understand how it charges me, or the amount I can claim for, or what to do when it goes wrong, which it seems to do about 10% of the time for me.

 

[AlterEgo]

And yet you keep suggesting methods that are ONLY available when there is full internet and mobile phone facilities.
Make your mind up.

I am not suggesting that at all. Please go back and read post #108 (this is the second time I’ve suggested you read this post, btw).

So keeping it as it is, is not a solution?
Who says it is wholly unsatisfactory? I have plenty of train using friends who are quite happy with the way it works at the moment.

5 years handling consumer contact and complaints is pretty broad experience - my specialist area was ticketing and fulfilment. You would not believe how often people asked *not* to have a paper ticket (this was a few years ago when e-ticketing wasn’t quite as widespread as now). There’s very broad consumer demand for paperless ticketing nationwide. There will always be exceptions and people who don’t like paperless, and want to keep paper. That’s fair enough, but they’ll find it hard to convince most people that the paper system is the best, most efficient, most intuitive and most desirable method across the market.

Incidentally, nearly everyone who posts in this area of the board agrees the system needs changing - though the direction of that change is usually the source of intense disagreement. This is the first time I’ve found someone questioning whether any change is needed and implies that it’s all fine, serving the rail consumer in the best way.

Does it? Several recent postings in this thread, and numerous postings in other sections says otherwise, as the system is not perfect and does not work for everyone.

The system is definitely not perfect. No system is. But it’s a lot better than the losable, open to fraud and resale, expensive to fulfil paper method.

No, you are suggesting making the system more complicated and more expensive to some users, and that is NOT the way to encourage use.

No, the point (yet again) is this: if you simplify and streamline, and indeed normalise the use of smart or paperless ticketing, then the whole system becomes more intuitive as a result. Many of the complications inherent in the current system, designed around people carrying bits of paper, technically cannot and will not be supported and they will HAVE to go. It will lead by default to a simpler, fairer and more transparent fares system.

Putting a small surcharge on certain fulfilment methods is proven *not* to discourage rail use at all - and only modifies customer choice and behaviour. This is a fact I’ve seen borne out at two TOCs who did this.

I don’t like to claim superior knowledge or any moral high ground etc, but I would invite you to consider how you’d respond to someone posting about signalling, when they have no specialist experience and rely on anecdotes to support their point of view, as opposed to a former professional in that area.

At the end of the day, what you or I, or people on this forum think isn’t going to count for much. If you care very strongly about it, I’d really recommend watching out for any DfT consultation on the issue and submitting a response. This is the best way to effect (or prevent!) any change.

 

[radamfi]

Who says it is wholly unsatisfactory?

The main problem with the existing system, as explained earlier, is the need to allow an unspecified amount of time before or after the trip to pick up or buy a ticket.

 

[radamfi]

The stumbling block would appear to be that the railway needs to find a way to prevent the use of multiple copies of the same ticket without restricting the passenger's rights (which I gather is a problem with existing m-tickets)

It doesn't seem to cause a problem in other countries. If you look at the DB website, regulations for changes and refunds are same or better with mobile/home print tickets compared to tickets from a machine or ticket office.

 

[Gareth Marston]

What do you think is not inclusive and fair about charging 50p for getting a paper ticket, as opposed to the vastly more egregious price discrimination elsewhere in all forms of public transport, the railway included?

The number of people who can enter a booking office and ask for a ticket is close to 100% obviously excluding those that unfortunately are not able to function normally senility, mentally ill etc. Whilst ofcom will tell you that 93% of adults have a mobile phone and c75% a Smartphone we all know that the ownership levels versus those that are comfortable with using the functionality on them is far far lower. Throw in poor signal coverage and the reality is that the actual potential market for smart phone ticketing is less than half the adult population and even then you cant assume all of them will want to just because they have the ability to.

There are c53 million adults in the UK, why should over 30 million of them be penalised just because you and another couple of posters on here are Tech Fundamentalists?

Perhaps it should be the other way round with the minority who can paying for the privilege?

 

[yorksrob]

It would be interesting to know what proportion of railway passengers actually consider replacing paper ticketing to be a priority. My suspicion is very few, particularly compared to some sort of regulation over what TOC's can charge (and not just for commuters).

 

[Via Bank]

It would be interesting to know what proportion of railway passengers actually consider replacing paper ticketing to be a priority. My suspicion is very few, particularly compared to some sort of regulation over what TOC's can charge (and not just for commuters).

Try saying that to people who've missed a train while queueing to collect a ticket, or been shamed into paying a PF and buying a new ticket in public because they didn't realise the booking confirmation had to be exchanged for a ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

The number of people who can enter a booking office and ask for a ticket is close to 100% obviously excluding those that unfortunately are not able to function normally senility, mentally ill etc. Whilst ofcom will tell you that 93% of adults have a mobile phone and c75% a Smartphone we all know that the ownership levels versus those that are comfortable with using the functionality on them is far far lower. Throw in poor signal coverage and the reality is that the actual potential market for smart phone ticketing is less than half the adult population and even then you cant assume all of them will want to just because they have the ability to.

There are c53 million adults in the UK, why should over 30 million of them be penalised just because you and another couple of posters on here are Tech Fundamentalists?

Perhaps it should be the other way round with the minority who can paying for the privilege?

Firstly, I’m not sure why you and other posters are fixated on mobile phones, when I’ve been clear that this is definitely not the only method of paperless ticketing.

Secondly, the majority of rail customers are able to use a phone, or a computer, or an email account, or a contactless card, or a smart card, etc etc etc. Those on this board who oppose paperless ticketing fall broadly into two camps; technophobes, and those with a vested interest against ticket simplification and remote purchasing (ticketing enthusiasts, the super savvy, and retail staff).

There are paperless solutions which could involve purchasing tickets on a train, too.

I absolutely don’t understand the fixation on mobile phones and laptops.

 

[AlterEgo]

It would be interesting to know what proportion of railway passengers actually consider replacing paper ticketing to be a priority. My suspicion is very few, particularly compared to some sort of regulation over what TOC's can charge (and not just for commuters).

Couldn’t give you any numerical statistics, but I dealt with people literally every day who either wanted a paperless option, or who had issues inherent only with paper tickets.

This doesn’t include the large amount of fraud that is perpetrated with paper tickets (re-use, fake Delay Repay claims, resale, etc etc).

 

[yorksrob]

Couldn’t give you any numerical statistics, but I dealt with people literally every day who either wanted a paperless option, or who had issues inherent only with paper tickets.

This doesn’t include the large amount of fraud that is perpetrated with paper tickets (re-use, fake Delay Repay claims, resale, etc etc).

And presumably you deal with people every day who use paper tickets quite happily without fuss ?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And presumably you deal with people every day who use paper tickets quite happily without fuss ?

This discussion reminds me of a matter some years ago when it was said that the end of cheque usage was nigh and many "modern" ideas were rolled out in support of it by those in favour, but we all know how that "bright idea" ended.

 

[yorksrob]

This discussion reminds me of a matter some years ago when it was said that the end of cheque usage was nigh and many "modern" ideas were rolled out in support of it by those in favour, but we all know how that "bright idea" ended.

Indeed. I've yet to find a more convenient way to pay the window cleaner or for railtours.

 

[jon0844]

The number of people who can enter a booking office and ask for a ticket is close to 100% obviously excluding those that unfortunately are not able to function normally senility, mentally ill etc. Whilst ofcom will tell you that 93% of adults have a mobile phone and c75% a Smartphone we all know that the ownership levels versus those that are comfortable with using the functionality on them is far far lower. Throw in poor signal coverage and the reality is that the actual potential market for smart phone ticketing is less than half the adult population and even then you cant assume all of them will want to just because they have the ability to.

There are c53 million adults in the UK, why should over 30 million of them be penalised just because you and another couple of posters on here are Tech Fundamentalists?

Perhaps it should be the other way round with the minority who can paying for the privilege?

How many stations have ticket offices only open for a few hours a day, and maybe not at weekends at all?

You wouldn't need mobile signal everywhere if buying a mobile ticket - just when you bought the ticket. That could be at home, or there might be Wi-Fi at the station. On the train, it would be some form of animated ticket (like a digital railcard) that could be checked for validity and checked by staff as necessary. They either have a connected device to check the ticket, an offline app that can decode the aztec code, or if all else fails have to just take your word for it that's definitely valid (putting the problem on the railway).

For those who want a physical ticket, you get rid of the paper tickets and go with a smartcard loaded with a ticket. If a passenger doesn't have one, they get one with the purchase and keep it for future use. A one off cost, possibly as a deposit if you want one-off rail users not to be out of pocket, but more likely a small fee to encourage people to keep their card and - eventually - massively reduce the need to issue cards to passengers because in time most people will have one.

Of course the card issued MUST be capable of storing all tickets for the whole railway, not on a TOC by TOC basis.

There might be many logistical problems to overcome, but they can all be overcome and nobody will have to have a smartphone to store tickets, or a printer at home. But I suspect that the majority of users will do one of those, and as time goes on, that will increase until it's as close to 100% as you can realistically get.

How long have our orange tickets been around? The next move doesn't have to happen overnight, but the process needs to speed up from the glacial pace it's moving at right now.

 

[AlterEgo]

And presumably you deal with people every day who use paper tickets quite happily without fuss ?

Dealt, not deal. I work outside the industry now.

Indeed - millions of journeys a year are made using paper tickets without problems.

At no point have I suggested binning them, merely asking those who choose to have one to consider how expensive it is to issue, and proposing an appropriate surcharge to encourage many (but by no meals all) into cheaper alternatives of ticket fulfilment.

 

[AlterEgo]

This discussion reminds me of a matter some years ago when it was said that the end of cheque usage was nigh and many "modern" ideas were rolled out in support of it by those in favour, but we all know how that "bright idea" ended.

Eh?

Cheque use is a tiny fraction of what it used to be (used to be 4 billion a year in 1990, now it’s just 12% of that number). In fact, the refusal by stores to accept cheques, and measures by banks to discourage their use (guess what, often by charging businesses more to process them) are a great case study of how to encourage people to use a different method of payment/fulfilment.

Go and have a look at the stats around cheque use! They aren’t dead yet, and there are still quite a few around, but they are declining every year.

88% of younger people didn’t write a single cheque last year. I haven’t written one for about ten years.

 

[SaveECRewards]

Indeed. I've yet to find a more convenient way to pay the window cleaner or for railtours.

On the other hand I've not written a cheque for years. I did find my old "Midland Bank" chequebook in my parents house with only 2 cheques ever written and a TSB one which due to the demerger with Lloyds is now quite accurate!

I had an electrician visit the house and he used a portable card reader to take payment. Window cleaner gets paid in cash but if there was any demand from customers for card payment I'm sure he'd adapt.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Try saying that to people who've missed a train while queueing to collect a ticket, or been shamed into paying a PF and buying a new ticket in public because they didn't realise the booking confirmation had to be exchanged for a ticket.

Its amazing how an industry has survived and thrived for nearly two centuries with this supposed inherent flaw (of a Booking Office )in how access to use it is purchased. There's also the element of personal responsibility which appears to be totally missing in these arguments. "i turned up at the station 2 minutes before the train was due and there were 10 people in queue in the booking office who turned up a couple of minutes before me meant I couldn't get my tickets its the railways fault", its the old its always someone else's fault line of thinking. Also seen in "its not my fault that I didn't read the instructions".

Having fewer open booking offices with fewer staff and shorter opening hours is a different issues to do with cost cutting even though passenger numbers and revenue have been growing for years. The whole attack from the Tories and DfT on DOO and Paperless ticketing is being driven because they are too frightened to accept responsibility for the consequences of the 1993 Railways Act which have driven costs in the industry up and are desperately blundering about looking for other ways to save £ apart from holding their hands up.