• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Leyland National: Success or Failure?

Status
Not open for further replies.

SteveHFC

Member
Joined
1 Nov 2014
Messages
114
I was a big fan of Nationals when I was growing up - went to school on People's Provincial services, which were predominately National operated along with a selection of Iveco minibuses.

It's one bus I'd like to have a go at driving before my PCV licences expires in a couple of years time (I've not worked on the buses for the best part of 20 years).

Favourite National was Provincial (3)75 (WFX253S) - it was renumbered 375 when it was added to their Portsmouth fleet in the late 80s.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

gazthomas

Established Member
Joined
5 Jun 2011
Messages
3,039
Location
St. Albans
I used to travel on Leyland Nationals from Conwy to Chester in the mid-1980's. Rattly and underpowered, especially up hills
 

GusB

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
6,543
Location
Elginshire
Haha. They got rid of all of ours and replaced them with Ford Transit bread vans!

We had 3 Nationals for the town service (GSO1-3V), then some bright spark decided that second-hand Dodgy S56 minibuses would be a far better idea. I didn't think anything could rattle as much!

The Nationals all found homes in different parts of the Stagecoach empire, as did their registration marks which were transferred over to a batch of Olympians. They too eventually headed south (while we got ancient Bristol VRs in return - gee, thanks!) :)
 

delt1c

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2008
Messages
2,125
In London they were used to replace RM's on several routes when converted to OPO. They worked well and gave little problems. Even Loughton garage which had some very hilly routes managed well with 100% LS fleet, I can't recall any failures on the 250. IN london the LS was the unsung hero
 

theblackwatch

Established Member
Joined
15 Feb 2006
Messages
10,714
Haha. They got rid of all of ours and replaced them with Ford Transit bread vans!

That was the case in many parts of the country, but a lot of Nationals ended up being sold on by NBC companies to independent operators. I've been doing some research into what happened to all the LNs belonging to my local company (West Yorkshire) and very few went straight for scrap when they were finished with.
 

daikilo

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2010
Messages
1,622
Coming back to the original question, it is difficult to answer as it became effectively the only vehicle available for large companies due to the way Leyland was allowed to swallow any competitor. That said, if the question was whether it was better than say a Seddon RU then the answer is yes. Than a Bristol RE3 can be debated.
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,029
In London they were used to replace RM's on several routes when converted to OPO. They worked well and gave little problems. Even Loughton garage which had some very hilly routes managed well with 100% LS fleet, I can't recall any failures on the 250. IN london the LS was the unsung hero

Loughton never had RMs, of course, so no direct conversions there. Actually, I can't off-hand think of any direct conversions to LS from RM, but I stand to be corrected. I take your main point, though.
 

delt1c

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2008
Messages
2,125
Never said Loughton had RM's, it had LS's for 250 and 1 other route then Titans were transfered and replaced by LS's. There were a couple of routes converterd to LS OPO, one in the Hammersmith area as i worked on the 11's and rember thinking it was strange to see an RM route converted to OPO LS
 

GusB

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
6,543
Location
Elginshire
I wouldn't expect there to be many Nationals still in service in original condition, but does anyone know if any of the Greenways are still in service. I would assume that DDA requirements have done away with them on ordinary stage-carriage operation, but they still around on contract work anywhere?
 

plarailfan

Member
Joined
6 Feb 2013
Messages
172
Location
56D
I Really miss the Nationals. I was lucky enough to work at Yorkshire Travel, in Dewsbury, during the mid 1990's and we had a few secondhand MK1 Nationals. I absolutely loved the style and character of them (still do), but always thought that the brake pedal, was not set up, so well, as the Leyland Leopards I had driven on a previous rung of my career ladder.
Yorkshire Travel also had just one, of the short, MK2 variants, which had a Gardner engine and that was the preferred choice for most drivers, as it was, by far, the most reliable, quick off the mark and always guaranteed to be warm in winter.
Looking back to the original MK1's, they were about 18 years old when we were running them and consequently, very unreliable with frequent, niggling electrical and other problems, also, I always noticed, that after a full day on the road, they always came back to base, with the rear window covered in oily stains from the exhaust. I guess the engines were getting worn out but they still had plenty of power !
In my view, Leyland came up with a long lasting and robust body structure, which needed improved weight distribution and perhaps, including some of the existing, tried and proven technology, from the Bristol RELL - basically they could have tried a RELL with a National body !
Another part of the National story is the production line at Workington. It would be great if some-one who worked there could give us some insight with building and testing the many variants.
 

GusB

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
6,543
Location
Elginshire
In my view, Leyland came up with a long lasting and robust body structure, which needed improved weight distribution and perhaps, including some of the existing, tried and proven technology, from the Bristol RELL - basically they could have tried a RELL with a National body !
Another part of the National story is the production line at Workington. It would be great if some-one who worked there could give us some insight with building and testing the many variants.
There was the Leyland B21, which was essentially the underframe and mechanicals from the National made available for bodying by other manufacturers. I recall that it was intended for export markets only, although an exception was Ulsterbus/Citybus. I think it was Ipswich that ended up with a few Alexander (Belfast) built B21s, diverted from NI.
 

Alex 2901

Member
Joined
30 Dec 2015
Messages
223
Location
Willenhall, West Midlands
I remember the Nationals at Chase Bus, which may have been the last Nationals left in PSV use (withdrawn 2007, with Arriva Midlands), and while they leaked on a rainy day, made one hell of a racket, and looked as if they'd seen better days; Willenhall doesn' look the same without Nationals, nor does New Invention. They kinda epitomized that time to me; Chase Nationals, vs Travel West Midlands B10Bs and Metrobuses, and Travel A2Zs Leyland Olympians and Dennis Lances... And given the number built, and longevity of the type, I'd say yes, they were a success
 

Welshman

Established Member
Joined
11 Mar 2010
Messages
3,017
I'm afraid my views about the National were influenced not by their mechanical hardiness [of which I knew little], but the spartan seating of the basic model, compared with what had gone before.
I used Yorkshire Traction's examples quite regularly on the Sheffield-Halifax route, and after travelling for nearly two hours on a seat which felt like an ironing-board, I certainly had quite a ....headache!
 

Strathclyder

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
3,178
Location
Clydebank
I wouldn't expect there to be many Nationals still in service in original condition, but does anyone know if any of the Greenways are still in service. I would assume that DDA requirements have done away with them on ordinary stage-carriage operation, but they still around on contract work anywhere?
Essbees' of Coatbridge had Greenways up until the tail-end of 2016 for use on school contracts, with JIL 2161 (ex-National HWC 87N, new to Eastern Counties as their 1736; re-bodied as a Greenway for Midland Fox in 1994) being the last of the type in service with them, only being withdrawn in late 2016. They were displaced by a mixture of ex-Mersyside Wright-bodied B10Bs & ex-Brighton & Hove B10BLEs (with a single ex-Harrogate & District Wright-bodied B6BLE thrown in for good measure).

I think they were the last Greenway operator in Scotland; they were almost certainly the last in Western Scotland. Willing to be corrected on both counts, though.
 

GusB

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
6,543
Location
Elginshire
Essbees' of Coatbridge had Greenways up until the tail-end of 2016 for use on school contracts, with JIL 2161 (ex-National HWC 87N, new to Eastern Counties as their 1736; re-bodied as a Greenway for Midland Fox in 1994) being the last of the type in service with them, only being withdrawn in late 2016. They were displaced by a mixture of ex-Mersyside Wright-bodied B10Bs & ex-Brighton & Hove B10BLEs (with a single ex-Harrogate & District Wright-bodied B6BLE thrown in for good measure).

I think they were the last Greenway operator in Scotland; they were almost certainly the last in Western Scotland. Willing to be corrected on both counts, though.
That's quite an impressive service life - 42 years, assuming it didn't go on any further, of course. I very much doubt we'll be saying the same about the original Dennis Darts in a decade or two!
 

djpontrack

Member
Joined
18 Jan 2011
Messages
1,016
Location
Morecambe
I always liked the Leyland National. I went to school on them sometimes as Highland at Fort William had 4 of them at the time I think.
A few years later when I was living in Swindon, I would regularly travel on them. Swindon and District had a few and I remember riding on Stroud and Gloucester based ones there too.
 

Statto

Established Member
Joined
8 Feb 2011
Messages
3,208
Location
At home or at the pub
I think almost every major operator had Nationals from new, Merseyside PTE started buying them from late 70s mostly brought National 2s, i remember Crosville still having the dual door vehicles in the late 80s, the sound of the engine roaring into life was something to behold, but did think the Nationals without roof pods looked weird.
 

theageofthetra

On Moderation
Joined
27 May 2012
Messages
3,504
Last one I went on was in the last year of Hovercraft operation from Dover- one used to shuttle you out to the apron from the terminal. I wonder what happened to it?

From memory the National gave the hovercraft a run for its money in the noise department.
 

GusB

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
6,543
Location
Elginshire
I think almost every major operator had Nationals from new, Merseyside PTE started buying them from late 70s mostly brought National 2s, i remember Crosville still having the dual door vehicles in the late 80s, the sound of the engine roaring into life was something to behold, but did think the Nationals without roof pods looked weird.
The roof pods were one of the features that made the Nationals so distinctive in the first place. My first memories of them were from visiting my gran in Coatbridge, where Eastern Scottish ran the local services. At that time, everything else was a Y-type, so they certainly stood out. I also remember when the National 2 came out - not so much the physical differences, but they had a different sound (I wouldn't have known it was a different engine back then!)
When they were introduced on my local town service a couple of years later, they were the shorter version and came without roof pods, and they did look decidedly odd without.
 

jp4712

Member
Joined
1 May 2009
Messages
469
I have access to drive the first National off the production line, Selnec EX30, and I have to say it's very pleasant compared to a Leyland PD; and much lighter to drive than a Leopard. The engine was a bit of a dog but the body is excellent: but as someone mentioned above, as they got old the electrics are a niggle (EX 30 recently lost second gear altogether, which was eventually traced to a broken wire running along the entire length of the bus). A lot of people condemn them for the characterful buses they replaced, and they were generally specified with awful seats, but overall I think I'd count them a success.
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
19,965
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
That's quite an impressive service life - 42 years, assuming it didn't go on any further, of course. I very much doubt we'll be saying the same about the original Dennis Darts in a decade or two!

Perhaps though 42 years is fairly exceptional. However, worth pointing out that a number of L/M reg Darts delivered c.1994 managed to clock up 18 years and one (now preserved) managed 20!!
 

plcd1

Member
Joined
23 May 2015
Messages
788
I always liked Leyland Nationals. I can still vividly recall the first one that came down our road - a United route ran down it. The noise was so very different to the usual REs and occasional LHs. Similarly the first time a Mark 2 went past - that engine roar.

I never really had any issue with them as a passenger. Oddly the first bus I ever drove, on private property, was a National - all highly illegal given how old I was but great fun nonetheless. I can understand why people considered them utilitarean but they lasted well and proved adaptable - IIRC Northern General re-engined a number of theirs which saw pretty intensive service on the busy 194 from Heworth to Easington Lane.
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,029
The Leyland National certainly can't be called a failure, given both how many were built and their comparative longevity: it's just a bus that has failed to gladden the hearts of many. A 'utilitarian' bus if ever there was one, and, let's face it, in this country we really only consider double deckers to be 'proper' buses, noble and notable exceptions though there may be.
 

Non Multi

Member
Joined
11 Dec 2017
Messages
1,117
A curate's egg. Mk1's required a less spartan interior, a dependable and smoother engine in the rear and passenger radiators mounted above the floor.
 

GaryMcEwan

Established Member
Joined
20 Aug 2013
Messages
1,604
Location
Bridgeton, Glasgow
Stagecoach certainly seemed to like them anyway. My first memory of the National was when a mass batch of them suddenly appeared in Perth in the stripes and Perth Panther branding to take on Strathtay and ultimately run them out of Perth.
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
19,965
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
I always liked Leyland Nationals. I can still vividly recall the first one that came down our road - a United route ran down it. The noise was so very different to the usual REs and occasional LHs. Similarly the first time a Mark 2 went past - that engine roar.

I never really had any issue with them as a passenger. Oddly the first bus I ever drove, on private property, was a National - all highly illegal given how old I was but great fun nonetheless. I can understand why people considered them utilitarean but they lasted well and proved adaptable - IIRC Northern General re-engined a number of theirs which saw pretty intensive service on the busy 194 from Heworth to Easington Lane.

United re-engined a number of their late model Nationals with Daf engines, and then received some sheds from West Midlands that had both Volvo and Daf engines. Utilitarian is a word mentioned, but then again, you cite the Bristol LH.

Being a northerner myself, I spent many days on United Nationals and LHs and the former was palatial in comparison. I still vividly remember my first Explorer trip and hacking across from Durham to Peterlee on a United National, 510 engine clattering away and slipping around on brown vinyl seats. Then catching an LH from Peterlee to Sedgefield - as cold as a grave as the "stotty box" bounced across through the former mining villages. Nationals were a step up from the LH but not as good as a decent RE - to be honest, design has moved on a lot and things are better now (despite what some people may say).

Incidentally, the LH was only supposed (in NBC days) to have a service life of 7 years. By 1980/1, a number of United's had reached that point so many decent vehicles were withdrawn and scrapped. However, some of those survived and as new vehicle numbers fell, they remained until withdrawal in 1993, more than 10 years after ones from the same batch had gone and almost three times their intended life!!
 

plcd1

Member
Joined
23 May 2015
Messages
788
United re-engined a number of their late model Nationals with Daf engines, and then received some sheds from West Midlands that had both Volvo and Daf engines. Utilitarian is a word mentioned, but then again, you cite the Bristol LH.

Being a northerner myself, I spent many days on United Nationals and LHs and the former was palatial in comparison. I still vividly remember my first Explorer trip and hacking across from Durham to Peterlee on a United National, 510 engine clattering away and slipping around on brown vinyl seats. Then catching an LH from Peterlee to Sedgefield - as cold as a grave as the "stotty box" bounced across through the former mining villages. Nationals were a step up from the LH but not as good as a decent RE - to be honest, design has moved on a lot and things are better now (despite what some people may say).

Incidentally, the LH was only supposed (in NBC days) to have a service life of 7 years. By 1980/1, a number of United's had reached that point so many decent vehicles were withdrawn and scrapped. However, some of those survived and as new vehicle numbers fell, they remained until withdrawal in 1993, more than 10 years after ones from the same batch had gone and almost three times their intended life!!

Oh sure I can remember sliding around on the brown seats - especially the side seats at the front! My favourite United ones where those allocated to Whitley Bay - 3082, 3088 and 3112 were the ones I remember. I also liked 3110 which was in T&W yellow and white and worked on the busy 647 route to Lobley Hill (a really odd United route into Northern General territory post integration restructuring). I'd forgotten United got so many re-engined examples but I was away from the NE by then. The North East managed to remain a LH stronghold for so long - largely because of TMS and TWOC and then Busways making all sorts of odd second hand purchases to support their post deregulation network prior to Stagecoach coming in and rationalising it out of existence. I'm not sure I especially enjoyed LHs at the time but the passing of time makes me look more fondly on them. As you say they ended up being decent workhorses on all sorts of work. The only downside really was that they sometimes ended up being allocated to what were pretty busy Tyne and Wear or cross boundary into Northumberland services where their capacity could be insufficient. The massive climb inside wasn't ideal either. I'd like to have travelled in a LT semi-auto version but never quite managed to do so.
 

Jordan Adam

Established Member
Joined
12 Sep 2017
Messages
5,514
Location
Aberdeen
Certainly not a failure! Although from memory Grampian had a very unreliable batch that only just about lasted 6 years before being disposed of. At a stylistic side of things the National was far better than the Lynx, I've always thought of the Lynx as rather depressing too look at. Almost as if Leyland got their inspiration from a 1960s tower block elevator. I feel like the ALX200/300/400 series were quite a peak for the stylistic looks of a bus. They were modern at the time while not looking outdated 15 years later and built quality was generally speaking of a good level (Most notable on the ALX400).

It should go without saying though that just because something has sold in quite some volume it doesn't necessarily mean it's a good product. Same goes for something that fails to sell, doesn't mean it's bad. Just look at the Streetlite as a prime example....

We all have our own opinions and perspectives of things though, but that's mine :smile:
 

GusB

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
6,543
Location
Elginshire
Certainly not a failure! Although from memory Grampian had a very unreliable batch that only just about lasted 6 years before being disposed of.
They lasted a bit longer than that. I've just checked an old fleetbook from 1989, and there were still 7 examples of the KSO-P batch listed as being in the Grampian fleet. I can't remember if there were any left when I moved to Aberdeen in 1992, but I was a fairly frequent visitor to the city in the two years preceding that, and I do recall seeing a few left on the road, although they weren't regular sightings.
 

Jordan Adam

Established Member
Joined
12 Sep 2017
Messages
5,514
Location
Aberdeen
They lasted a bit longer than that. I've just checked an old fleetbook from 1989, and there were still 7 examples of the KSO-P batch listed as being in the Grampian fleet. I can't remember if there were any left when I moved to Aberdeen in 1992, but I was a fairly frequent visitor to the city in the two years preceding that, and I do recall seeing a few left on the road, although they weren't regular sightings.

Just having a look now and it was the VRS-L batch that were disposed off very prematurely in 1979 at 6 years old.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top