(Mis)managed Motorways

[Peter Mugridge]

Allegedly aren't the speed cameras only supposed to work if speed limit is showing on the screens, and even then allegedly they are only set for the highest speed limit below the NSL ie 60mph, so if the sign was set to 40mph but you were doing 60mph it still wouldn't trigger the speed camera, not that I would like to test that out.

Not so; in the case of the M25 Heathrow section the cameras have, for the past year or so, been live at all times and do match any reduced limits shown. They also have a very tight trigger margin - although the traffic is usually so heavy that nobody is likely to get anywhere near the speed limit in the first place most of the time...

 

[tspaul26]

Interestingly, the law says this:



This says you must abide by the 40mph speed limit given until you pass a traffic sign indiciating the NSL is in force.

I am not certain a blank sign indicates the NSL is in force from a legal perspective. It certainly isn’t in the Highway Code! In fact I’d be sure that the absence of information on any sign doesn’t signify anything at all on any road.

Source: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/793/regulation/3/made

You have omitted regulation 3(4), which provides that:

For the purposes of this regulation a speed limit sign is to be taken as not indicating any speed limit if, ten seconds before the vehicle passed it, the sign had indicated no speed limit or that the national speed limit was in force.

This means that a blank sign is not indicating a speed limit and the prohibition in regulation 3(1) does not apply. If no speed limit is indicated, we then default to the national speed limit.

 

[AlterEgo]

You have omitted regulation 3(4), which provides that:



This means that a blank sign is not indicating a speed limit and the prohibition in regulation 3(1) does not apply. If no speed limit is indicated, we then default to the national speed limit.

That isn’t my reading of that regulation. It reads to me to imply that a blank sign does not indicate any speed limit, whether that’s 40mph or the NSL. In essence, the blank sign provides no information, advisory, order etc.

IANAL, though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That isn’t my reading of that regulation. It reads to me to imply that a blank sign does not indicate any speed limit, whether that’s 40mph or the NSL. In essence, the blank sign provides no information, advisory, order etc.

IANAL, though.

But a speed limit (by general legislation on the matter) does not exist without repeaters at the correct spacing. If those are absent, the limit is not in force.

 

[tspaul26]

That isn’t my reading of that regulation. It reads to me to imply that a blank sign does not indicate any speed limit, whether that’s 40mph or the NSL. In essence, the blank sign provides no information, advisory, order etc.

IANAL, though.

Indeed, a blank sign does not indicate any speed limit.

The issue appears to be that you are taking discrete paragraphs of the regulation out of context, rather than construing the regulation entire.

The operative restriction is contained in regulation 3(1) whereas regulations 3(2) to 3(5) provide further instructions as to how that restriction is to be interpreted.

To take the analysis step-by-step:

(1) No person shall drive a vehicle...

The restriction applies to vehicles that are being driven. So far, so good.

We are driving a vehicle.

...on a section of a road which is subject to a variable speed limit...

The definition of such a section is set out in regulation 3(2):

(2) A section of a road is subject to a variable speed limit in relation to a vehicle being driven along it if—

(a) the road is specified in the Schedule;
(b) the vehicle has passed a speed limit sign; and
(c) the vehicle has not subsequently passed—

(i) another speed limit sign indicating a different speed limit; or
(ii) a traffic sign which indicates that the national speed limit is in force.​

​

As to (a), let us assume that the road is actually specified (not necessarily guaranteed given the quality of some legislative drafting).

As to (b), the vehicle has passed a speed limit sign indicating a speed limit of 40mph. Regulation 3(5) tells us that in relation to a vehicle a 'speed limit sign' means a diagram 670 type traffic sign (i.e. a number inside a red circle).

As to (c)(ii), the vehicle has not passed a traffic sign indicating that the national speed limit is in force.

As to (c)(i), the vehicle has only passed a blank speed limit sign. It has not passed a 'speed limit sign' of the diagram 670 type as defined in regulation 3(5).*

Consequently, we may conclude that the vehicle is on a section of a road which is subject to a variable speed limit both before and after passing the blank sign.

We must then consider the final part of the restriction:

...at a speed exceeding that indicated by a speed limit sign.

Regulation 3(4) clarifies that if a speed limit sign indicates no speed limit or indicates that the national speed limit is in force then it "is to be taken as not indicating any speed limit".

It is worthy of note that this paragraph of the regulation is not subject to the caveat "in relation to a vehicle", unlike regulation 3(2), regulation 3(3) and the definition of 'speed limit sign' in regulation 3(5). This means that the speed limit signs to which regulation 3(4) applies are not limited to those that conform to diagram 670 and a completely blank sign can constitute a speed limit sign in this respect.

As such, if the speed limit sign does not indicate a speed limit (i.e. is blank) or indicates that the national speed limit is in force it is to be taken as "not indicating any speed limit".

This brings us to the logical conclusion that, if no speed limit is being indicated by a speed limit sign, it will not be possible to drive a vehicle in excess of the indicated speed. To put the matter another way, one cannot exceed an indicated speed if no speed has actually been indicated.

* For the avoidance of doubt, regulation 3(4) clarifies that a blank sign is not indicating a speed limit so once again we may conclude that the vehicle has not passed a speed limit sign indicating a speed limit for the purposes of regulation 3(2)(c)(i),

 

[AlterEgo]

Indeed, a blank sign does not indicate any speed limit.

The issue appears to be that you are taking discrete paragraphs of the regulation out of context, rather than construing the regulation entire.

The operative restriction is contained in regulation 3(1) whereas regulations 3(2) to 3(5) provide further instructions as to how that restriction is to be interpreted.

To take the analysis step-by-step:



The restriction applies to vehicles that are being driven. So far, so good.

We are driving a vehicle.



The definition of such a section is set out in regulation 3(2):

​

As to (a), let us assume that the road is actually specified (not necessarily guaranteed given the quality of some legislative drafting).

As to (b), the vehicle has passed a speed limit sign indicating a speed limit of 40mph. Regulation 3(5) tells us that in relation to a vehicle a 'speed limit sign' means a diagram 670 type traffic sign (i.e. a number inside a red circle).

As to (c)(ii), the vehicle has not passed a traffic sign indicating that the national speed limit is in force.

As to (c)(i), the vehicle has only passed a blank speed limit sign. It has not passed a 'speed limit sign' of the diagram 670 type as defined in regulation 3(5).*

Consequently, we may conclude that the vehicle is on a section of a road which is subject to a variable speed limit both before and after passing the blank sign.

We must then consider the final part of the restriction:



Regulation 3(4) clarifies that if a speed limit sign indicates no speed limit or indicates that the national speed limit is in force then it "is to be taken as not indicating any speed limit".

It is worthy of note that this paragraph of the regulation is not subject to the caveat "in relation to a vehicle", unlike regulation 3(2), regulation 3(3) and the definition of 'speed limit sign' in regulation 3(5). This means that the speed limit signs to which regulation 3(4) applies are not limited to those that conform to diagram 670 and a completely blank sign can constitute a speed limit sign in this respect.

As such, if the speed limit sign does not indicate a speed limit (i.e. is blank) or indicates that the national speed limit is in force it is to be taken as "not indicating any speed limit".

This brings us to the logical conclusion that, if no speed limit is being indicated by a speed limit sign, it will not be possible to drive a vehicle in excess of the indicated speed. To put the matter another way, one cannot exceed an indicated speed if no speed has actually been indicated.

* For the avoidance of doubt, regulation 3(4) clarifies that a blank sign is not indicating a speed limit so once again we may conclude that the vehicle has not passed a speed limit sign indicating a speed limit for the purposes of regulation 3(2)(c)(i),

Thanks for the breakdown - appreciated and understood!

 

[tspaul26]

Thanks for the breakdown - appreciated and understood!

If it's any consolation I have to deal with highway law a lot at work, but utterly detest it as a field: horrendously complicated and totally counter-intuitive.

 

[robbeech]

Also, what about those that have joined from services, slip road or hard shoulder?

On Smart motorways there are signs on the entry slip to alert drivers entering the motorway to any current changes to speed limits as well as the ones on the motorway.

 

[gg1]

Allegedly aren't the speed cameras only supposed to work if speed limit is showing on the screens, and even then allegedly they are only set for the highest speed limit below the NSL ie 60mph, so if the sign was set to 40mph but you were doing 60mph it still wouldn't trigger the speed camera, not that I would like to test that out.

On the M62 the other week the speed limits were all over the place very confusing along with some blanks in between, I did see 1 car trigger the camera on a 50 but I reckon they must have been doing about 70

I've seen speed cameras flash on the M42 when there has been a speed restrictions of 40 with cars that definitely don't appear to be travelling above 60.

On Smart motorways there are signs on the entry slip to alert drivers entering the motorway to any current changes to speed limits as well as the ones on the motorway.

Aren't these on the entry to all motorways, smart or otherwise?

 

[PeterC]

Aren't these on the entry to all motorways, smart or otherwise?

There is no speed limit signage of any sort unless the limit is less than NSL. The "chopsticks" are sufficient to tell you that the limit is NSL in the absence of anything else.

 

[gg1]

There is no speed limit signage of any sort unless the limit is less than NSL. The "chopsticks" are sufficient to tell you that the limit is NSL in the absence of anything else.

I meant the flashing matrix signs which are illuminated to show when there is a lower speed limit in force.

 

[Domh245]

Aren't these on the entry to all motorways, smart or otherwise?

I think that they only exist for areas where the motorway has a variable speed limit, for example here at J10 of the M25, which isn't a smart motorway.

Edit: Looking at wikipedia, it would seem to suggest that any motorway with a variable speed limit is technically a smart motorway, but just the most basic level (Controlled Motorway) as opposed to my perception of smart motorways which are the "Dynamic Hard Shoulder" and "All Lane Running" levels

 

[gg1]

I think that they only exist for areas where the motorway has a variable speed limit, for example here at J10 of the M25, which isn't a smart motorway.

Edit: Looking at wikipedia, it would seem to suggest that any motorway with a variable speed limit is technically a smart motorway, but just the most basic level (Controlled Motorway) as opposed to my perception of smart motorways which are the "Dynamic Hard Shoulder" and "All Lane Running" levels

Maybe only major junctions then. They've definitely been on the entry slip roads to a number of junctions around Brum for as long as I've been driving, over 20 years and long before the existence of smart motorways/controlled motorways.

 

[Mojo]

Maybe only major junctions then. They've definitely been on the entry slip roads to a number of junctions around Brum for as long as I've been driving, over 20 years and long before the existence of smart motorways/controlled motorways.

Weren't they just for the advisory speed limits that many motorways had (and indeed still have) with the orange numbers and flashing orange lights?

 

[AlterEgo]

Weren't they just for the advisory speed limits that many motorways had (and indeed still have) with the orange numbers and flashing orange lights?

That’s what I thought too.

 

[ainsworth74]

The "chopsticks" are sufficient to tell you that the limit is NSL in the absence of anything else.

The "chopsticks"?

 

[AlterEgo]

The "chopsticks"?

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Chopsticks

 

[ainsworth74]

Aha, thank you! I was worried I had missed something fundamental from my road knowledge!

 

[gg1]

Weren't they just for the advisory speed limits that many motorways had (and indeed still have) with the orange numbers and flashing orange lights?

Yes those are the signs I'm referring to.

 

[The Lad]

Well, a friend who has been to a Speed Awareness Course in West Yorkshire asked the question and was told that for one blank the limits are as the last sign, after the second blank the limits revert to the national speed limit. FWIW.

 

[AM9]

Well, a friend who has been to a Speed Awareness Course in West Yorkshire asked the question and was told that for one blank the limits are as the last sign, after the second blank the limits revert to the national speed limit. FWIW.

There could be an issue here at night. For a driver unfamiliar with the motorway which if unlit, they would not know that a speed sign existed were it not showing a speed. Therefore how could they know that no indication of the continuing reduced speed limit was present and make an assumption that the NSL was applicable.

 

[greatkingrat]

Are there any unlit "Smart" motorways? I would guess that motorways not considered busy / important enough to have lighting installed would not need variable speed limits either.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Are there any unlit "Smart" motorways? I would guess that motorways not considered busy / important enough to have lighting installed would not need variable speed limits either.

The M1 north of J28 for Mansfield past J29 for Chesterfield seems to be both a road with variable speed limits in red circles (on individual 'bracket' signs rather than on 'gantries' over every lane) and unlit. IIRC IANAL.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, a friend who has been to a Speed Awareness Course in West Yorkshire asked the question and was told that for one blank the limits are as the last sign, after the second blank the limits revert to the national speed limit. FWIW.

Can't be correct; some setups/situations don't show the NSL "clear" at the end.

What is the case is that the cameras contain a fibre-optic view of what the sign is showing, and only if the sign is *actually* correctly showing the required speed (or blank/NSL for 70) will a ticket be generated.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The M1 north of J28 for Mansfield past J29 for Chesterfield seems to be both a road with variable speed limits in red circles (on individual 'bracket' signs rather than on 'gantries' over every lane) and unlit. IIRC IANAL.

Must admit I don't like the "sign at the side" approach, it's less "in your face" so you're more likely to make an error.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I meant the flashing matrix signs which are illuminated to show when there is a lower speed limit in force.

If they do not show a speed in a red circle, it is advisory.