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Greater Anglia Rolling Stock Updates

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F Great Eastern

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Generally it's not just restricted to East Anglia though, it's happening on a number of train franchises were there's a lot of style, bold claims and headline grabbing announcements and promises made and a few years down the line people find out it's not going to be so rosy after all.

Trouble is these days franchisees are trying to promise the sun the moon and the stars and in order to do that they're doing little more than an acceptable job on the implementation where I'd much rather see them do a little less and do an excellent job of it.
 
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TheEdge

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Generally it's not just restricted to East Anglia though, it's happening on a number of train franchises were there's a lot of style, bold claims and headline grabbing announcements and promises made and a few years down the line people find out it's not going to be so rosy after all.

Trouble is these days franchisees are trying to promise the sun the moon and the stars and in order to do that they're doing little more than an acceptable job on the implementation where I'd much rather see them do a little less and do an excellent job of it.

Sadly there is quite the obsession (and as you say, no way limited to AGA) to order new trains regardless of what might be available and suitable on the used market. We shall have to see what comes of the various franchises with these huge stock orders.

I must admit its a brave/bold/ballsy/silly (*delete as appropriate) decision to introduce articulated units to the domestic UK network on the less than high quality rural branch lines of East Anglia. I can think of better places to test notoriously axle heavy articulated designs than the East Suffolk....
 

306024

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You must have been watching the latest series of W1A on BBC2

"The fact is, this is about us identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better."
 

F Great Eastern

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Sadly there is quite the obsession (and as you say, no way limited to AGA) to order new trains regardless of what might be available and suitable on the used market. We shall have to see what comes of the various franchises with these huge stock orders.

I must admit its a brave/bold/ballsy/silly (*delete as appropriate) decision to introduce articulated units to the domestic UK network on the less than high quality rural branch lines of East Anglia. I can think of better places to test notoriously axle heavy articulated designs than the East Suffolk....

We will have to see how it goes, Nobody would be more pleased than me if Abellio managed to pull it off and they ticked all of the boxes that they said they are going to do without downgrading the passenger experience, but I've had my doubts from day one about if they will be able to deliver it and the proof is in the pudding as they say.

I must say however investment in the franchise was vastly overdue since in the National Express years it was very thin on the ground, especially in the first half of their tenure and a lot of life expired stock needs to be replaced, so all credit to Abellio for doing that, but I just can't help thinking that they've bitten off more than they can chew and it could end up style and nice headlines over substance.

We'll see though, but however bad it is it won't be as bleak as before Abellio took over all those years ago.
 

dk1

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But I thought the 321s are mandated to have a certain number of seats in the franchise specification? If they're going to have First Class back in they're still going to have the same number of seats overall which means the rest are going to have to be bunched up even further in order to make it work? That's a retrograde step if true.

In relation to the fueling, where can DMU's be refueled and what is the diagrams like now in relation to proximity to refueling areas? I guess I'm asking theoretically how much distance does each diagram tend to do a day for them?

I'm a tad confused by what you mean about 321 seating. Excuse me if I'm being dim but no 321s after 2020 as far as I'm aware. I was referring to 1st class possibly in the Aventra fleet under construction.

At the moment DMUs are only planned to be fuelled at Crown Point but occasionally Freightliner oblige at Ipswich thanks to a good working relationship with GA. This may become more contractual as may permanently diagramed daytime fuelling at Crown Point which is not a problem. Whether any facilities will be made available outside these locations has not yet been made public.
 

F Great Eastern

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I'm a tad confused by what you mean about 321 seating. Excuse me if I'm being dim but no 321s after 2020 as far as I'm aware. I was referring to 1st class possibly in the Aventra fleet under construction.

At the moment DMUs are only planned to be fuelled at Crown Point but occasionally Freightliner oblige at Ipswich thanks to a good working relationship with GA. This may become more contractual as may permanently diagramed daytime fuelling at Crown Point which is not a problem. Whether any facilities will be made available outside these locations has not yet been made public.

Sorry - I meant the 720 Aventras - will correct!
 

samuelmorris

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Not even Govia tried to pull that. I'd expect a broad facsimile of what the 321 refurbs have got, a leather/faux-leather 2+2 table arrangement, probably only at one end of each unit.
 

Trainfan344

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With regards to range of the bi-modes, as a testbed I calculated the 37 diagram to be around 240 miles a day so with a range of 600 miles your brand new bi-mode needs refuelling approximately once every 2 and 2/3 days
 

F Great Eastern

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Not even Govia tried to pull that. I'd expect a broad facsimile of what the 321 refurbs have got, a leather/faux-leather 2+2 table arrangement, probably only at one end of each unit.

But the problem is that aren't the 720s specified to have a certain number of standard class seats as part of the franchise specification?

If you're going to procure them with even a small amount of First Class seats with a different layout then you're going to have to fit the same amount of standard class seats into a smaller amount of space.

They're already using 3 in a row even in airline seats to cram more in. If they are going to go with First Class then I hope that this will not be at the expense of cramming the standard class together even more, but I fear it will.
 

F Great Eastern

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If 1st class is going in, that target isn't going to be met. The seating count is already pretty much as high as it can possibly be.

That's my point - if they are going to keep to that commitment, they are going to have to squeeze things even more tighter and I can't fathom how they will do that without a serious impact on passenger comfort.

They have to either not bother with First Class or reduce the number of standard seats slightly to put a small amount in. Reducing the seat pitch and space in standard class further is absolutely not acceptable and is a non starter for me.
 

dk1

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With regards to range of the bi-modes, as a testbed I calculated the 37 diagram to be around 240 miles a day so with a range of 600 miles your brand new bi-mode needs refuelling approximately once every 2 and 2/3 days

The 37 diagram isn't exactly intensive compared to some DMU diagrams particularly Sheringham & Cambridge & the new timetable is expected to be quite tight. You must remember that diagrams are planned over 2-3 days between fuel depending on where units end their day. This changes everything.
 

eastdyke

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With regards to range of the bi-modes, as a testbed I calculated the 37 diagram to be around 240 miles a day so with a range of 600 miles your brand new bi-mode needs refuelling approximately once every 2 and 2/3 days
The 37 diagram is atypical. The Felixstowe unit does over 500 miles per day with only 4 minutes at each end. :'( So drivers will need to be easy on the juice to make it through just one day. But at least they can refuel at Ipswich before each new day - if they make it.
The Sudbury unit does around 400 miles per day, overnighting in Colchester. If the new depot at Brantham has fuel facilities (not sure ???) then perhaps it will overnight and be refuelled there. :)
 

dk1

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The 37 diagram is atypical. The Felixstowe unit does over 500 miles per day with only 4 minutes at each end. :'( So drivers will need to be easy on the juice to make it through just one day. But at least they can refuel at Ipswich before each new day - if they make it.
The Sudbury unit does around 400 miles per day, overnighting in Colchester. If the new depot at Brantham has fuel facilities (not sure ???) then perhaps it will overnight and be refuelled there. :)

Easy on the juice? How does that work then?
 

dk1

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My point is that it doesn't work does it? 'Less a friendly freight will push you up to Westerfield :lol:.

No train driver bothers about fuel consumption & half the time we leave a key in so it idles for hours on end.
 

Class 170101

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Basically the Stadler is an EMU with a fuel tank bolted on - well thats how it comes across anyway. As where as had eVoyager gone ahead the 220s / 221s would have been a D(E)MU with a pantograph added.

As for the fuelling; XC use facilities at Cambridge, As mentioned, Ipswich with Freightliner. I would be surprised if Brantham had fuelling given how close it is to the river Stour and the environmental issues associated with fuel if it leaks into water.
 

Alfie1014

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Few things have come up recently involving the new fleet/timetable...

Bi-mode fleet will only be able to work 500-600 miles between fuelling. This compares poorly with the 1300-1500 miles currently attained with the DMU fleet. Some major diagram changes & fuelling outside of Crown Point (FL do currently help out at Ipswich) will have to be sourced.

Sudbury Branch will not now work through to/from Colchester. This performance nightmare is a non-starter not least because of the foot crossing issues at Marks Tey. Never was the brightest idea on the aspiration list.

Bombardier Aventra units may yet retain first class accommodation after all. A decision must be made soon but the jury is still out on this one.

I've heard the same about Sudbury branch, which will mean more Col-Col Tn shuttles I assume as there is no requirement for through trains from London in the future timetable specification. What will happen on Sundays will be interesting as the Sudbury service going through is specified but is the only train to Colchester Town on that day, which I find amazing as it is now the second busiest shopping day of the week and whilst Colchester Town is not ideally located for the shops if definitely better than North station.

The bi-modes limited diesel range may be quite a constraint, I do wonder if the thought was that it was expected that there would be some extention of the wires during the life of the franchise (Felixstowe branch and Haughley Jn-Ely-Peterboro?).

I still find the first class decision on the Aventra London services some what odd, whilst overall the numbers may be relatively small it doesn't seem very good business sense to alienate some of your most remunerative customers, who may find the only alternative offered (3+2 seating) as a worsenment and take to their cars. Added to the fact that there appears to be some softening of London commuter demand according to latest figures (and which DfT predicts will continue well into the next decade) I do wonder if the fleet as currently planned won't be the best configured for the market.
 

eastdyke

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As for the fuelling; XC use facilities at Cambridge, As mentioned, Ipswich with Freightliner. I would be surprised if Brantham had fuelling given how close it is to the river Stour and the environmental issues associated with fuel if it leaks into water.
LOL The Brantham site and adjacent lands were all part of a large Chemical Works for over 100 years. No fuel installation goes in anywhere these days without totally adequate spillage containment measures.
If GA need a fuel installation at Brantham (and I am not sure that they do) then the location will not be a problem.
 

fat_boy_pete

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Basically the Stadler is an EMU with a fuel tank bolted on - well thats how it comes across anyway. As where as had eVoyager gone ahead the 220s / 221s would have been a D(E)MU with a pantograph added.

As for the fuelling; XC use facilities at Cambridge, As mentioned, Ipswich with Freightliner. I would be surprised if Brantham had fuelling given how close it is to the river Stour and the environmental issues associated with fuel if it leaks into water.

Actually the BMU's are an EMU with an articulated generator car added. Hence could become an EMU, with minimal changes if required in the future.
 

306024

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......I still find the first class decision on the Aventra London services some what odd, whilst overall the numbers may be relatively small it doesn't seem very good business sense to alienate some of your most remunerative customers, who may find the only alternative offered (3+2 seating) as a worsenment and take to their cars. Added to the fact that there appears to be some softening of London commuter demand according to latest figures (and which DfT predicts will continue well into the next decade) I do wonder if the fleet as currently planned won't be the best configured for the market.

The softening of the London commuter demand will be of concern to Abellio. The repayments to Government rely in part on filling all these seats. However they claim to be relatively calm as the growth in housing along the routes continues.

Yes you wonder about the financial mathematics of abolishing first class (except for most Norwich services). Not privy to the figures, but they must think this, and more importantly growth in demand all adds up or we may have another East Coast embarrassment in the making.

Calculating the range for a bi-mode diagram is a good logistical challenge with the mix of electric and diesel power. This can all be planned, but during major disruption some may end up running on fumes.
 
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TT-ONR-NRN

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No worries. Yeah, that's going to be a problem if they decide to retain some sort of 1st class unless it's 3+2 seating with antimacassars (perish the thought)

3x2 seating in first class??? That should be illegal!!!!!!
 

Wivenswold

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That's not going to happen.

PS. There are probably better role models than KH. Learn to cook, you'll never be lonely if you can feed people.
 

Alfie1014

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I don't think adding first class to the 720s will make a large difference to seating, in the most recent layout I've seen (see page 10 https://www.suffolkchamber.co.uk/media/44250/2017-04-04-jd-aga-to-tib.pdf)
there's clearly a small area of 2 + 2 seating at the end of each unit. Not very large admittedly but could still be used for 1st class.

I agree it appears it could be done quite simply, with little or no loss of capacity. I just hope that if it is decided to retain it they don't do a 'Connex' and simply put paper antimaccaseurs on the same seats!
 

jopsuk

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I'm going courtesy of the Greater Anglia Cycle Forum to derby next week to see the cycle store on the mockup- I'll gently inquire about the latest regarding 1st then...
 

Wivenswold

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Top sleuthing jopsuk. You might want to try the sneaky approach. "So will there be a separate cycle rack in first class?"
 
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