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Season Pass Photocard

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dabaus1

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Hi Forum,
We find ourselves in a bit of a situation, on Friday 5 October my wife used my season pass to London from Brighton, at Victoria she got stopped and asked for a photocard ID which she did not provide. She got her details taken and asked to email a photo of the photocard within 14 days. She is due to start a new job in London this week and she was meant to buy a season pass anyway and in panic, she bought a season pass on the same day of the offence (5 October), now we don't know whether is a good idea to send her new photocard ID or wait for a response from GTRail Prosecutions after the 14 days without providing proof?
 
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Romilly

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Welcome to the forum.

As regards the photo ID, your season pass will record the serial number on your photo ID. The serial number on your wife's new photo ID will therefore not match the serial number recorded on your season pass. Accordingly, providing a copy of her new photo ID will not get her out of her predicament: travelling without a valid ticket.

So presumably you want to focus your efforts on persuading the prosecutions department to settle out of court and not proceed to prosecute. Giving details of the new season pass may be part of re-assuring the prosecutor that your wife has learned her lesson and that her future travel will be covered by a valid ticket.
 

gray1404

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The problem here is that the assessor will be concerned that your wife has done this many times and that what happened on Friday was not the first time. Although they have no such proof of this. They will, if offering an out of court settlement, possibly offer a higher figure to reflect the fact the ticket could have been misused many times. Season ticket misuse is taken seriously.
 

dabaus1

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Welcome to the forum.

As regards the photo ID, your season pass will record the serial number on your photo ID. The serial number on your wife's new photo ID will therefore not match the serial number recorded on your season pass. Accordingly, providing a copy of her new photo ID will not get her out of her predicament: travelling without a valid ticket.

So presumably you want to focus your efforts on persuading the prosecutions department to settle out of court and not proceed to prosecute. Giving details of the new season pass may be part of re-assuring the prosecutor that your wife has learned her lesson and that her future travel will be covered by a valid ticket.
Hi Romilly,
Thanks for the reply, my wife told me that strangely, only her details were taken (name and address) and not any details about the season pass itself, as there was a lot of confusion and multiple people were stopped at Victoria at peak hour,
Do you think is a good idea to send her new Photocard bought on the day or wait for a response?
 

dabaus1

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Thanks for your reply gray1404
No details were taken apart from her name and address, and she immediately bought her own season ticket on the same day. Would this be in her advantage?
The problem here is that the assessor will be concerned that your wife has done this many times and that what happened on Friday was not the first time. Although they have no such proof of this. They will, if offering an out of court settlement, possibly offer a higher figure to reflect the fact the ticket could have been misused many times. Season ticket misuse is taken seriously.
 

furlong

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What was the duration of the original season ticket - annual/monthly or just weekly? And the new one purchased?
 

bb21

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This doesn't quite make sense to me. Was the season ticket not withdrawn on the spot?

How can your wife be sure that no other detail than her name and address was taken? I am intrigued. Was she shown what the RPIs wrote down?
 

gray1404

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Is it really possible that an RPI would write done simply ones name, address, the fact a photo card wasn't shown and perhaps a date... ask for the signature and that be the end of their notes? Aside from giving the customer a price of paper saying where to send a copy of the missing document to. (This is GTR though after all I can't help but wonder in my head)...
 

furlong

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Some observations you might consider.

When season tickets are sold, the photocard ID is normally linked to the ticket in a database.

The company might decide to investigate whether a similar fraud happened on other occasions too - this would be for them to prove, not for your wife to disprove.

The company might also seek evidence that rather than your wife borrowing it without your knowledge, you permitted the ticket to be used fraudulently like this, and cancel the ticket and prosecute both of you.

The company's prosecutions department will have limited resources and need to choose which of its cases justify additional investigations.

Paperwork sometimes gets filled in incorrectly or lost.

You might be able to use the new season ticket to argue that the fare has now been paid (which a court might or might not accept if the company disputes this, which it might). But as well as any fares lost, companies usually also ask to be reimbursed reasonable direct costs incurred during their investigation, and this can run into many hundreds of pounds, particularly if face-to-face interviews happen later in the process.

The courts seem to encourage settlements out-of-court rather than unnecessary prosecutions.

Trying to reach a settlement sooner rather than later should reduce the costs you'll end up paying - coming clean and apologising, providing reassurances it will never happen again, and offering to reimburse reasonable costs they have incurred as a result of the fraud.

If you search this forum you will find examples where settlements were reached, avoiding prosecution. This is sometimes achieved by telephone calls, sometimes by writing, sometimes even in court on the day of a prosecution.

The forum is not a substitute for professional legal advice.
 

furlong

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Thanks for your reply gray1404
No details were taken apart from her name and address, and she immediately bought her own season ticket on the same day. Would this be in her advantage?

Yes, in that it ought to remove suspicion that she committed a further offence by travelling back home without a valid ticket.
 

gray1404

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I don't think the company has any evidence that the OP knowingly gave their season ticket to their wife. They may suspect it but the train company doesn't have any proof of this.
 

dabaus1

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This doesn't quite make sense to me. Was the season ticket not withdrawn on the spot?

How can your wife be sure that no other detail than her name and address was taken? I am intrigued. Was she shown what the RPIs wrote down?
Hi bb21,
No the ticket was not withdrawn, there was a lot of confusion at the gates as a lot of people were getting stopped, it seemed as if they were trying to get as many as possible, as quickly as possible, she was next to him when he wrote the note that she had to sign, and left her a small slip receipt saying she should provide the missing document within 14 days.
 

dabaus1

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Some observations you might consider.

When season tickets are sold, the photocard ID is normally linked to the ticket in a database.

The company might decide to investigate whether a similar fraud happened on other occasions too - this would be for them to prove, not for your wife to disprove.

The company might also seek evidence that rather than your wife borrowing it without your knowledge, you permitted the ticket to be used fraudulently like this, and cancel the ticket and prosecute both of you.

The company's prosecutions department will have limited resources and need to choose which of its cases justify additional investigations.

Paperwork sometimes gets filled in incorrectly or lost.

You might be able to use the new season ticket to argue that the fare has now been paid (which a court might or might not accept if the company disputes this, which it might). But as well as any fares lost, companies usually also ask to be reimbursed reasonable direct costs incurred during their investigation, and this can run into many hundreds of pounds, particularly if face-to-face interviews happen later in the process.

The courts seem to encourage settlements out-of-court rather than unnecessary prosecutions.

Trying to reach a settlement sooner rather than later should reduce the costs you'll end up paying - coming clean and apologising, providing reassurances it will never happen again, and offering to reimburse reasonable costs they have incurred as a result of the fraud.

If you search this forum you will find examples where settlements were reached, avoiding prosecution. This is sometimes achieved by telephone calls, sometimes by writing, sometimes even in court on the day of a prosecution.

The forum is not a substitute for professional legal advice.
Hi furlong thanks for the detailed reply,
Would you advice to wait for a formal letter to arrive? Or use the 14 day period to send the new photocard?
 

cuccir

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Here's the thing that others have been dancing around and I'm going to say a bit more plainly:

Normally in this circumstance, the number of your season ticket would have been noted by person who stopped your wife. As your wife's photocard won't match this, then sending it in will be of no use. In fact, it would potentially compound things further as it would be further evidence of trying to use a season ticket that wasn't hers.

However, you seem to think that the number might not have been taken this case. It is possible therefore that by sending the photocard in you might get away with it; although, frankly, this would mean getting away with having misused a discounted ticket (ask yourself: would your wife have really purchased her ticket on the 5th had she not been stopped? If not, she'd have effectively traveled without paying). However, it is also possible that the season ticket database is sufficiently sophisticated to know that your wife's photocard was purchased after the time she was stopped; we do not really know, and we don't know how accurately the RPI filled in the form with regards to location and time if he missed other things too.

The ball is in your court.
 

Fawkes Cat

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At the risk of sounding like your grandmother, honesty is the best policy.

If I have understood the facts correctly, your wife travelled on your season ticket. Season tickets are not transferable, so that means that she has committed an offence.

It's not clear if she did it with your knowledge. If you did know that she was going to do it, then you have also committed an offence.

If your wife sends in details of a new photocard, then unless she explains precisely when she obtained the new photocard, the railway company could interpret this as an attempt to mislead them into thinking that she had the right to travel on the ticket that she showed. That would not make the situation any better.

My opinion (and like most of the people here, I am not a lawyer) is that since your wife has been given an opportunity to make contact with the railway company, she should take it. As has been explained in posts above, since the ticket was a season ticket, the railway company might argue that just because this was the only occasion that your wife was caught not paying her fare, it doesn't mean that she has not done it before. So (assuming that this was a one off) if you can produce evidence that your wife always pays for this journey (e.g. old railway tickets, entries on a bank/credit card statement showing purchases of a ticket at the right price) or has never previously had cause to make this journey (e.g. until recently she was working somewhere else that she would not reach by train, or had a bus pass etc.) it would be good to do so.

Your wife is unlikely to come out of this without having to pay something. The very least is the fare for the journey in question - and that would be an unprecedentedly good result. On the basis of previous cases discussed here, the least that the railway company will want is the cost of the fare not paid, and the cost of their investigation - which will run into hundreds of pounds. Or they may seek prosecution - which if successful would involve your wife paying a fine, compensation (the train fare and any other fares that the railway argues to the court's satisfaction have not been paid), court costs and the prosecution's costs.

As (per your original post) there is no doubt that your wife has committed an offence, I don't think this forum can recommend trying to duck her responsibility. The best your wife can hope for is that the railway company will not be harsh: the best way to encourage the railway company is to fully co-operate and be totally open.

One last point - something like this can put a huge strain on a relationship. Both you and your wife need to be aware of that, and work hard to support each other to deal with what will inevitably be a difficult experience.
 

dabaus1

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At the risk of sounding like your grandmother, honesty is the best policy.

If I have understood the facts correctly, your wife travelled on your season ticket. Season tickets are not transferable, so that means that she has committed an offence.

It's not clear if she did it with your knowledge. If you did know that she was going to do it, then you have also committed an offence.

If your wife sends in details of a new photocard, then unless she explains precisely when she obtained the new photocard, the railway company could interpret this as an attempt to mislead them into thinking that she had the right to travel on the ticket that she showed. That would not make the situation any better.

My opinion (and like most of the people here, I am not a lawyer) is that since your wife has been given an opportunity to make contact with the railway company, she should take it. As has been explained in posts above, since the ticket was a season ticket, the railway company might argue that just because this was the only occasion that your wife was caught not paying her fare, it doesn't mean that she has not done it before. So (assuming that this was a one off) if you can produce evidence that your wife always pays for this journey (e.g. old railway tickets, entries on a bank/credit card statement showing purchases of a ticket at the right price) or has never previously had cause to make this journey (e.g. until recently she was working somewhere else that she would not reach by train, or had a bus pass etc.) it would be good to do so.

Your wife is unlikely to come out of this without having to pay something. The very least is the fare for the journey in question - and that would be an unprecedentedly good result. On the basis of previous cases discussed here, the least that the railway company will want is the cost of the fare not paid, and the cost of their investigation - which will run into hundreds of pounds. Or they may seek prosecution - which if successful would involve your wife paying a fine, compensation (the train fare and any other fares that the railway argues to the court's satisfaction have not been paid), court costs and the prosecution's costs.

As (per your original post) there is no doubt that your wife has committed an offence, I don't think this forum can recommend trying to duck her responsibility. The best your wife can hope for is that the railway company will not be harsh: the best way to encourage the railway company is to fully co-operate and be totally open.

One last point - something like this can put a huge strain on a relationship. Both you and your wife need to be aware of that, and work hard to support each other to deal with what will inevitably be a difficult experience.

Thanks for your reply Fawkes Cat,
This is starting to sound confusing and could spiral in the wrong direction very quickly, we are now considering not mentioning her new season ticket at all, as it could do more damage than good, and rely on providing evidence that she is a full-time Masters student at Brighton University, owns a car and that the trip on Friday was an idiotic mistake, hopefully settle this within the 14 days provided and avoid the prosecution office expenses, could this be a viable alternative?
 

Llanigraham

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Thanks for your reply Fawkes Cat,
This is starting to sound confusing and could spiral in the wrong direction very quickly, we are now considering not mentioning her new season ticket at all, as it could do more damage than good, and rely on providing evidence that she is a full-time Masters student at Brighton University, owns a car and that the trip on Friday was an idiotic mistake, hopefully settle this within the 14 days provided and avoid the prosecution office expenses, could this be a viable alternative?

The fact that she is a car owning student makes no difference!
 

Fawkes Cat

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Thanks for your reply Fawkes Cat,
This is starting to sound confusing and could spiral in the wrong direction very quickly, we are now considering not mentioning her new season ticket at all, as it could do more damage than good, and rely on providing evidence that she is a full-time Masters student at Brighton University, owns a car and that the trip on Friday was an idiotic mistake, hopefully settle this within the 14 days provided and avoid the prosecution office expenses, could this be a viable alternative?

Once again - honesty is the best policy.

I know it sounds as if I am banging on about the same thing, but your wife really doesn't have a leg to stand on here, having travelled on someone else's season ticket. So all you can do is co-operate as much as possible with the railway company. That means emphasising that your wife has learnt her lesson and will not do the same thing again (yes, I know this sounds like I'm talking to a naughty school child: unfortunately if this ends up going to court that is the approach that will be taken) but also not concealing anything. If you don't tell the railway company about the new photocard and they find out, then a natural question for them to ask would be 'why has this information been concealed from us?' Your wife really shouldn't do anything that - even in the smallest way - raises suspicion that she is now being anything other than being open and honest with the railway company.

If you've looked at a few of the threads in this forum, you'll see that a frequent recommendation is to write a brief, courteous letter to the railway company
- apologising
- explaining all the facts (including that your wife promptly bought a season ticket, and so got a new photocard)
- emphasising that
- this is a one-off mistake
- your wife has learnt that it is wrong not to pay the fare that is due, and​
- offering to pay the outstanding fare, plus any costs that the company has incurred.

I think this is what you should do (although the letter will read most naturally if it comes from your wife rather than you - 'I will not do this again' is a much more powerful statement than 'my wife will not do this again'). There are experienced contributors on this forum who will read over a letter for you (either put an anonymised version up in this thread, or hopefully someone will be along shortly who you may be able to private message) and so hopefully you give your wife the best possible chance of bringing this matter to a close sooner rather than later.
 

Harlequin

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I completely concur with Fawkes Cat. It was Will Rogers who once said "If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging". I don't work for any company affiliated with the railways but do work in Law and there's nothing more we like than "check mating" somebody who's strung together a web of deceit which they end up tangling themselves in.
 

Clip

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You might be able to use the new season ticket to argue that the fare has now been paid (which a court might or might not accept if the company disputes this, which it might). But as well as any fares lost, companies usually also ask to be reimbursed reasonable direct costs incurred during their investigation, and this can run into many hundreds of pounds, particularly if face-to-face interviews happen later in the process.

.

All they have to do is look her up on their database and they will see it.

We need to be careful with this advice here because an offence was committed right away by not being able to produce a valid ticket when required to do so, and that's a strict liability offence and I cant recall anything in the legislation that says you can buy one after you have been stopped once you have passed an open ticket office and other ticketing facilities at Brighton.

Plus, if they did look up her brand new ticket bought they would simply find out that it was bought in London and not brighton and would alert any decent investigator to something fishy going on.

Be honest, take it on the chin and hope for an out of court settlement.
 

furlong

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We need to be careful with this advice here because an offence was committed right away by not being able to produce a valid ticket when required to do so, and that's a strict liability offence and I cant recall anything in the legislation that says you can buy one after you have been stopped once you have passed an open ticket office and other ticketing facilities at Brighton.

This is getting into technicalities, but I don't think I realistically see a byelaw or RORA offence at the point of inspection - the main byelaw offence 18(1), if proven, would have been complete at the earlier time of entering the train to travel irrespective of a subsequent ticket inspection (which merely leads to the discovery of evidence of an already-committed offence). But season ticket offences often demonstrate an indisputable element of planning and might first be treated as fraud or failing that under RORA 5(3). The quote speaks to what compensation might be due - you wouldn't necessarily get the same answer from a criminal court after conviction (likely to seek merely to put the company back into the same position as it would have been in had the crime not occurred and there been no prosecution) as from a civil court (considering what is due contractually, which could turn out to be a higher figure).
 
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Clip

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This is getting into technicalities, but I don't think I realistically see a byelaw or RORA offence at the point of inspection - the main byelaw offence 18(1), if proven, would have been complete at the earlier time of entering the train to travel irrespective of a subsequent ticket inspection (which merely leads to the discovery of evidence of an already-committed offence). But season ticket offences often demonstrate an indisputable element of planning and might first be treated as fraud or failing that under RORA 5(3). The quote speaks to what compensation might be due - you wouldn't necessarily get the same answer from a criminal court after conviction (likely to seek merely to put the company back into the same position as it would have been in had the crime not occurred and there been no prosecution) as from a civil court (considering what is due contractually, which could turn out to be a higher figure).

I think you're all over the place here and its very far from getting into technicalities - lets face it from the moment the entered the barriers using the husbands ticket till the time they got stopped then they have committed several offences and to try and state otherwise as you tried to earlier is just fantasy
 

dabaus1

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Hi Forum, thanks for all the useful insights, we are in the process of writing a letter and take advantage of the 14 days 'grace' period before this gets official and costly. Try to cooperate as much as possible and hope for a settlement, I will post the letter here for feedback.
 

dabaus1

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Hi Forum, here's the first draft of our letter :


To whom it may concern,

I am writing regarding an incident which occurred on Friday 05/10/2017.

On this date, I have travelled from Hassocks to Victoria with my husband's season pass. Upon arriving to Victoria I was asked by inspectors to show the photo-card which I did not have.

I was then asked to provide personal details which I agreed to and I was told that I had 14 days to provide the necessary information to resolve the dispute.

As Recently, I am a full-time student at Brighton University and work part-time in London to support my studies. This is the first time I have been involved in an incident like this, and I realise it was a grave error of judgement. I have immediately purchased a Season Pass for my trip back home with the intention to remedy the situation.

I thoroughly apologise to GTR and staff at Victoria for this. I am aware of the seriousness of my actions and I will be absolutely committed to ensure this, or any similar incident does not occur again.

I would like to know if it would be possible to come to a settlement before this matter is continued and be more than willing to pay any penalty fares, admin fees, and any other associated damages as soon as possible.

Please find attached to this email images of my new Season Pass and Photo-card as well as my University course attendance.

I hope that a settlement can be reached quickly and I once again sincerely apologise for all damages and inconvenience caused to all affected.

Kind regards,
 

Sprinter153

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I'm not sure the inclusion of university attendance records, or even the mention of being a student is necessary. It isn't any mitigation at all.

The TOC's prosecution clerk is not going to think "Ahhhh, she's a student! Well that makes avoiding the correct fare alright then!"
 
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