The signs pictured don't look sufficient to me to support the charging of a penalty fare. Even the one on the reader only says "please touch in" rather than "tram passengers must touch again here" to try to catch the attention of people who already touched in once. None mention penalty fares or that your ticket will not be considered to have been validated for use on the tram otherwise. One merely states you may be charged a maximum fare otherwise. You might even have sufficient grounds here to ask for the part suspension of the Penalty Fares scheme until they sort out their inconsistent messaging.
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Tram Penalty
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cjohnson
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From where do you infer that the CTA is only applicable for customers alighting from trams? Seems a bit strange that existence or not of a CTA can change dependent on one's mode of arrival at that location.
To go back to the fundamentals, if a tram passenger didn't touch in twice at Wimbledon, it seems considerably more likely that they were unaware of this poorly-advertised requirement than they were dishonestly trying to evade their fare - particularly as the maximum fare is likely to cost them more! - and for that reason no penalty fare should apply and this element of the scheme should be suspended.
Mojo is perfectly correct. The documentation is all on the TfL website if you want to check for youself.
cjohnson
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Absolutely agree. The "double touch-in" requirement at Wimbledon is there to make sure the right flat Tram fare is charged. IMO it is a disgrace that people are being penalty fared for what is clearly an honest and easily done "mistake".
I did try, but couldn't easily find on TFL's site (PM me pls if you have it)
It is stated in the Tramlink Byelaws (http://content.tfl.gov.uk/tramlink-byelaws.pdf).
"No person at a tramstop or a station compulsory ticket area shall be in breach of this Byelaw 19 unless he came there by alighting from a tram." The legislation that affords the power to charge Penalty fares states that the definition of a compulsory ticket area that is not a Tram vehicle is the same as that in the Byelaws.
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/requ...lty Fares Order 2009.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1 "A person at a tramstop is not taken to be travelling on a tram service unless he came there by alighting from a tram."
It is not strange when one considers that at at least one Tramstop it would be illegal to walk along the pavement if this were not specified.
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And this must be why nothing I can find seems to say you do not hold a valid ticket if you do not do so - only that you may be liable, contractually, to pay the maximum fare. (I was expecting the posters photographed to have said in big letters that are impossible to miss that Oyster cards are only valid for use on the tram if touched on the readers on the platform before boarding, but they don't say that.)
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I agree that it's a disgrace and a blatant misuse of the penalty fares system and there should be action taken against the person who issued the PF.
Quakkerillo
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As a tourist who loves exploring the system, I arrived at Wimbledon station by train and intended to change to Tramlink 2-3 years ago. I had a valid Oyster card which was validated upon entry at London Waterloo. When I got to the Tramlink platform, I got quite confused, as I expected validating on the platform to end with an end-of-journey validation, even with the signage. I went up to the gateline, explained the situation to the staff member there, and then basically got berated for not understanding how it worked. He then took my Oyster card, placed it on gateline reader to end my Waterloo-Wimbledon Journey, and then told me to go down to the Tramlink platform, and validate again there.
This all seemed very weird, confusing, and quite angering, as I don't really think anything is wrong with my language understanding, but the signage wasn't 100% clear to me. And after reading this thread, I also believe the gateline assistant wasn't correct that I needed to touch the Wimbledon gateline as well, before going down to the Tramlink platform.
To see the situation still isn't 100% clear and people get charged a full penalty fare is quite disappointing. Extra announcements on the Tramlink platforms / the tram whilst waiting at Wimbledon would surely help, as well as a rethink about poster design. When it's busy, I don't have the time to stand at the top of the stairs to read a poster, nor hover in front of a validator to read all instructions while there are people behind me.
This all seemed very weird, confusing, and quite angering, as I don't really think anything is wrong with my language understanding, but the signage wasn't 100% clear to me. And after reading this thread, I also believe the gateline assistant wasn't correct that I needed to touch the Wimbledon gateline as well, before going down to the Tramlink platform.
To see the situation still isn't 100% clear and people get charged a full penalty fare is quite disappointing. Extra announcements on the Tramlink platforms / the tram whilst waiting at Wimbledon would surely help, as well as a rethink about poster design. When it's busy, I don't have the time to stand at the top of the stairs to read a poster, nor hover in front of a validator to read all instructions while there are people behind me.
daodao
Established Member
Why are the tram platforms at Wimbledon station within the rail station barriered zone? In Manchester, the Metrolink platforms at joint rail stations (Piccadilly, Victoria, Deansgate/Knott Mill, Rochdale, Airport, Altrincham and Navigation Road) are separate from and outside rail station barriered areas. At Altrincham, platform 2 (for Metrolink) adjoins platform 3 (Northern Rail), but I have never seen it in use, and the NR station is not barriered.
The "touching in/out" arrangements at Wimbledon for tram passengers seem designed to cause problems for occasional travellers. I am no longer familiar with public transport ticketing arrangements in London, having not lived there since 1984. On the odd occasion I have travelled there in recent years, I found the Oystercard and "touching in" system somewhat baffling, having always been used to paper/card tickets. I have concerns when this system is introduced in Greater Manchester. When in London, I have tended to use buses, as the system seemed simpler, with just the need to touch in, or alternatively (on a day trip), have just bought a return rail ticket to LU zone 1.
The "touching in/out" arrangements at Wimbledon for tram passengers seem designed to cause problems for occasional travellers. I am no longer familiar with public transport ticketing arrangements in London, having not lived there since 1984. On the odd occasion I have travelled there in recent years, I found the Oystercard and "touching in" system somewhat baffling, having always been used to paper/card tickets. I have concerns when this system is introduced in Greater Manchester. When in London, I have tended to use buses, as the system seemed simpler, with just the need to touch in, or alternatively (on a day trip), have just bought a return rail ticket to LU zone 1.
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It's just the layout of the station at Wimbledon, tramlink uses a former heavy rail alignment, and obviously the subsequent introduction of oyster has compounded the problem.
If I'm understanding you correctly the staff member took the correct course of action although there's obviously no excuse for him being grumpy about it. The whole arrangements there are ridiculously confusing though.
Generally if I'm in tourist mode I get a travel card rather than use oyster, it's just so much easier.
daodao
Established Member
What is platform 9 used for and does Network Rail need it? If it is just used by the Tooting-Wimbledon-Sutton line (which I used many years ago), could this not be converted to Tramlink too? Platforms 9 and 10 could then be separated from the NR station, with the barriers moved to the top of the stairs for platforms 1-4, 5&6 and 7&8, and platforms 9 and 10 not barriered.
Wow - this was more of a response than I was anticipating. Thanks to everyone for taking the time - I really appreciate it. When I went back to the station yesterday, using the same entrance as I used on the day and the entrance I typically use. I saw the first sign pictured in cjohnson's message at #29 above. In my view it is quite easy to miss ... I have never noticed it before ... but if you are looking for it, it suddenly becomes very noticeable!!! I might take a look at what posters are near the lifts. You wouldn't see that notice if using the lifts and given I had the suitcase with me I had contemplated going that route. Anyway, that's by-the-by.
The third poster in cjohnson's post at #29 is not at the entrance I used. That poster is interesting because it specifically mentions that you must touch in again even if you have touched in previously (the posters at the top of Platform 10 do not do this). If you do not use the main entrance, you will only see that message underneath the second yellow reader on the platform (picture no 2 in cjohnson's post) and you would need to stand in front of the reader and read pretty much the whole message to pick that up. Somebody above mentioned that there would be no reason for the reader to be busy when passengers alight. On the day in question people why quite clearly queuing to tap out.
I will take the sage advice re paying the £40 now and appealing later. The appeal rejection letter I received said I had 14 days to pay, but that may have been because there were still 14 days to run on the original 21.
All in all, I agree that the confusion generated by the rules around tapping in at Wimbledon are designed to be revenue generating rather than a penalty for fare dodging and that is what really irks me. In my view I clearly wasn't attempting to fare dodge on that day and given that I had had an annual travelcard 48 hours previously and have had annual travel cards on Oyster for many years before that. I certainly don't feel like I was treated fairly. Another point of contention is that appeals have to be submitted by a physical letter - you can't send an email. Again that is designed the make the process difficult. As I was going away, I actually had to get someone else to do this for me. Anyway - enough whinging. Thanks again to all.
The third poster in cjohnson's post at #29 is not at the entrance I used. That poster is interesting because it specifically mentions that you must touch in again even if you have touched in previously (the posters at the top of Platform 10 do not do this). If you do not use the main entrance, you will only see that message underneath the second yellow reader on the platform (picture no 2 in cjohnson's post) and you would need to stand in front of the reader and read pretty much the whole message to pick that up. Somebody above mentioned that there would be no reason for the reader to be busy when passengers alight. On the day in question people why quite clearly queuing to tap out.
I will take the sage advice re paying the £40 now and appealing later. The appeal rejection letter I received said I had 14 days to pay, but that may have been because there were still 14 days to run on the original 21.
All in all, I agree that the confusion generated by the rules around tapping in at Wimbledon are designed to be revenue generating rather than a penalty for fare dodging and that is what really irks me. In my view I clearly wasn't attempting to fare dodge on that day and given that I had had an annual travelcard 48 hours previously and have had annual travel cards on Oyster for many years before that. I certainly don't feel like I was treated fairly. Another point of contention is that appeals have to be submitted by a physical letter - you can't send an email. Again that is designed the make the process difficult. As I was going away, I actually had to get someone else to do this for me. Anyway - enough whinging. Thanks again to all.
CheapAndNerdy
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Platform 9 is used by Thameslink services to Luton (and a few peak-time Southern services) via the Sutton loop. There are 2 services per hour in each direction off-peak.
Quakkerillo
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How I understand it now, it would've sufficed to just tap at the tramlink validator, without going to the gateline, as per https://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/wimbledon/
If it was needed to go via the gateline, that would also lead to many people going there, then backing out again causing counter-flow, confusion, and congestion near the exit gatelines.
So the staff member was in a way incorrect that I should tap out at the gateline - which he then did - as the Tramlink validator would've sufficed.
Since the gateline isn't too wide at the platform 9-10 side, could it not be moved further in, to just before platforms 7/8, and place NR validators on platform 9, and Tramlink on platform 10, with looks like we have here in the Netherlands. http://www.fransmensonides.nl/foto11/twijfelpalenddr.jpg
That would obviously lose gateline protection for the Thameslink trains, but would make the need to validate upon Tramlink, and if from tramlink to NR, the need to validate for that as well, as lot easier and clearer.
No number of posters or signs can take away the fact that the situation at Wimbledon is (as far as I am aware) unique to the whole Oyster area in that you have to touch in twice. Obviously experienced users of the system at Wimbledon will be aware of the requirement but anyone from outside the area will go into "automatic pilot" when touching in at the station barriers thinking that all they have to do is touch out at the end of their journey.
Busaholic
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When Tramlink gets rid of their platform ticket machines they should move their Oyster validators too and place them on tram. Tramlink is a flat fare system, after all, and many users of it will be familiar with Oyster/contactless on buses. where you validate once and for all as you board. I know you may say that validators would need to be supplied at each door (as with bendybuses and Borisbuses) but it would end the Wimbledon farce, unless, of course, TfL have ulterior motives.
paddington
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He was not "in a way" incorrect, he was just incorrect.
Basically the tram validators on platform 10 do three things - exit from a tube/train journey OR cancel a Wimbledon entry, AND validate one tram journey
Most of the Thameslink stations around the loop are already unbarriered so that might encourage more fare evasion if people are aware of when Wimbledon's barriers are not in use (and I note the post reporting that SWR plans to increase use of the barriers, but Thameslink revenue doesn't concern SWR). I'm in favour of not having barriers and having more on-train checks, but that's besides the point.
Also there might be a problem with the lift to platform 9/10 as it might be outside your proposed gateline, which means another set of gates might need to be installed round the back
Well, I can think of a few problems. With the current system, there is no excuse for being on a tram without having touched in (the Wimbledon confusion for infrequent travellers notwithstanding). If you can't find your Oyster but a tram is about to leave, then you should not board the tram, look for the Oyster and then touch in at the next stop, which I see happening quite often.
If validators are on board trams, then you will get people (genuinely!) complaining that they were just about to touch in but the RPIs had disabled the validators too early.
The not-very-useful tram ticket machines should be replaced with machines that can be used to top up Oysters.
On the other hand, I think the way trams in Amsterdam work is quite good, but I don't know whether such a system would be replicable on the Croydon trams.
You've inadvertently opened up a can of worms about the situation at Wimbledon and what I'd consider to be a blatant abuse of the penalty fare system by tramlink staff. I'd certainly be inclined to take the matter further.
As a matter of interest, would this be covered by the Consumer Rights Act 2015 and, in particular, the part covering Unfair Contract Terms, which includes ensuring that contract terms, including those in notices, must be transparent?
If the above comments are to believed, then the terms and conditions, pertaining to the use of trams at Wimbledon, are anything but transparent to the average person.
If the above comments are to believed, then the terms and conditions, pertaining to the use of trams at Wimbledon, are anything but transparent to the average person.
Busaholic
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I'm probably being a bit thick (not unknown!) but your suggestion of touching in at the next stop surely suggests you have, in fact, boarded the tram and travelled on it without touching in.
Re the RPIs, this applied too with bendy buses, and has been extended to the 1,000 strong fleet of Borismasters with their three boarding doors.
Finally, I'd just like to quote Andrew Braddock, head of Tram UK, who said immediately following the Croydon tram tragedy 'the tram is like a bus on tracks.'
He said passengers shouldn't do that, although inevitably they do. Oyster readers on the tram would be better although I can imagine certain people would only touch in when they saw revenue staff?
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You would like to think so, I find it quite astonishing that tramlink revenue staff can get away with fleecing passengers like this. I'm all for fare evaders, of which I'm sure there are many on tramlink, being caught but this is just ridiculous.
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They seem to manage on the Borismasters.
Also id like to point out that ignorance of how something works is not a defence. Theres plenty of information around about the Wimbledon situation and if people choose not to search that information out and don't abide by the rules then this is what happens.
That's ridiculous, even staff have been confused by the arrangements at Wimbledon and just to be clear far from avoiding payment the mistake that the OP made would have cost him more anyway due to being charged for an incomplete journey.
so youre claiming that ignorance is a defence now? That's pretty impressive - let me know how you get on with that if you ever fall foul of the law sometime
Why do I suddenly think of the opening chapter of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy?
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