West Coast Railways / Riviera Trains HST

[Masboroughlad]

Wonder if in years to come, we'll witness a maroon WCR Intercity 125 or maybe an INTERCITY swallow HST or a blue and grey one.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I would like to see a Blue and Grey one, there are a few carriages around which do have that infact. Maroon would be good too.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Highly likely that with the production line so to speek open in Donny for 2020 work that at least 1 of Riviera/DRS/GBRF/WCRC doesnt take some surplus EC or GWR ones and have them brought up to standard incl CET fitment and retro fit the 1970s/80s interior.

 

[sprinterguy]

Of course one HST set has already spent time with a railtour operator, in the 2007/8 period, in the form of Cotswold Rail.

It didn't seem to work out particularly well for them and worked only a limited number of tours, but post 2020 I would be surprised if West Coast Railway Co or their contemporary equivalent didn't pick up a set to service the daytripper market. A second resurrection of the luxury "Blue Pullman" dining service that FM Rail operated for a while utilising a pair of top and tailed air con mark 2s would also seem a suitable use for a set, and I think that an HST rake would look particularly appealing in the nanking blue and white livery of what was in several ways its forerunner.

I do desperately hope that we don't see the sleek lines of an HST marred by WCRCs' universal drab brown livery, though.

 

[mushroomchow]

Given they're already familiar with MK. 3 operation, I could see DBS operating a set.

How I'd feel about seeing a British icon like the HST with "DB" emblazoned on the side is another matter entirely.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Given they're already familiar with MK. 3 operation, I could see DBS operating a set.

How I'd feel about seeing a British icon like the HST with "DB" emblazoned on the side is another matter entirely.

It'd be nice to have one in ICE livery

 

[43096]

Of course one HST set has already spent time with a railtour operator, in the 2007/8 period, in the form of Cotswold Rail.

It didn't seem to work out particularly well for them and worked only a limited number of tours

In what way did the use of an HST not work out for Cotswold, then?

 

[gazthomas]

They went out of business soon after

 

[43096]

They went out of business soon after

Which is absolutely nothing to do with their use of an HST!!!!

 

[gazthomas]

Which is absolutely nothing to do with their use of an HST!!!!

Really? It must have impacted their cash flow?

 

[43096]

Really? It must have impacted their cash flow?

Not really. The set would have been stored anyway so AIUI there was a nominal fee agreed between Cotswold and Porterbrook, which suited both as Porterbrook avoided the cost of storage.

What really killed Cotswold financially was leasing Class 66s. Not cheap, and not what they really needed - 57s would have been better.

 

[sprinterguy]

In what way did the use of an HST not work out for Cotswold, then?

I can't be certain; but the fact that it saw only occasional use, and was never tarted up in the way that they initially seemed keen to do, before the company was wound up suggests that it wasn't a successful experiment for them.

 

[43096]

I can't be certain; but the fact that it saw only occasional use, and was never tarted up in the way that they initially seemed keen to do, before the company was wound up suggests that it wasn't a successful experiment for them.

The set didn't need tarting up - it was a Project Rio set that was relatively recently refurbished. It also became clear pretty quickly that First Great Western would take almost all of the off-lease HST fleet, so there wasn't much point in spending cash on it.

Your timescales are also out. The HST set went back to Porterbrook in August 2006. Cotswold/Advenza went under 3 years later. Nothing to do with the HST.

 

[sprinterguy]

The set didn't need tarting up - it was a Project Rio set that was relatively recently refurbished.

It looked terribly tatty whenever I clapped eyes on it, though that was the impression I got from the whole of the Project Rio fleet, too.

Your timescales are also out. The HST set went back to Porterbrook in August 2006. Cotswold/Advenza went under 3 years later. Nothing to do with the HST.

Fair enough, I didn't even realise that the Advenza operation was related to Cotswold Rail.

You seem to have a far more solid grasp of the facts than the outsiders' impressions that I'm relaying, so if the HST set was more of a success for Cotswold than the impression I gained then I'll happily withdraw my argument.

 

[43096]

Fair enough, I didn't even realise that the Advenza operation was related to Cotswold Rail.

You seem to have a far more solid grasp of the facts than the outsiders' impressions that I'm relaying, so if the HST set was more of a success for Cotswold than the impression I gained then I'll happily withdraw my argument.

That's what forums are for - sharing information! It is over 10 years ago now and I had to go back and check the dates when things happened.

Part of the reason for the Cotswold use was because Porterbrook wanted to see if an HST set could be used on an occasional (rather than daily) basis. At the time there were a lot of sets off lease and they may have wondered about selling/leasing them to charter stock owners. The Cotswold operation proved that an HST copes fine with occasional use. Subsequently 41001 has also been successfully used on an occasional basis, too.

 

[sprinterguy]

Part of the reason for the Cotswold use was because Porterbrook wanted to see if an HST set could be used on an occasional (rather than daily) basis. At the time there were a lot of sets off lease and they may have wondered about selling/leasing them to charter stock owners. The Cotswold operation proved that an HST copes fine with occasional use. Subsequently 41001 has also been successfully used on an occasional basis, too.

Sounds like the future prospect of an HST in railtour use is quite a likely one then, on that basis.

 

[alexl92]

I do desperately hope that we don't see the sleek lines of an HST marred by WCRCs' universal drab brown livery, though.

Tbf, West Coast paint their diesels maroon to match the rolling stock. I think it looks terrible unless the diesel in question is simply providing hotel power from the rear (where it sort of blends in) but on an HST they wouldn’t have the same reason to do it as the coaches and power cars would stay as a set.

Plus, they’re surely not daft enough not to have noticed the way the retro-liveried GWR power cars have been received.

 

[43096]

Tbf, West Coast paint their diesels maroon to match the rolling stock. I think it looks terrible unless the diesel in question is simply providing hotel power from the rear (where it sort of blends in) but on an HST they wouldn’t have the same reason to do it as the coaches and power cars would stay as a set.

Plus, they’re surely not daft enough not to have noticed the way the retro-liveried GWR power cars have been received.

I don't get why anyone would think WCRC would want an HST. Their core business is kettle charters, so don't see how that fits?

 

[sprinterguy]

Tbf, West Coast paint their diesels maroon to match the rolling stock.

I appreciate that they do it to make the locos look as incongruous as possible when heating steam tours, although the colour used seems notably darker than the shade used on the carriages that they haul most of the time. It doesn't, for example, look anything like the extremely appealing and noticeably lighter shade of maroon that was deployed on Western Region Warships and Westerns, which did seem to match the BR maroon livery of mark 1 coaching stock. Getting off topic, but I don't think that West Coast's 47s would look any more incongruous on steam tours if they were painted in an approximation of their original BR two-tone green livery, and would look considerably more appealing when working solo. Not that it's exactly a major concern.

 

[mushroomchow]

I don't get why anyone would think WCRC would want an HST. Their core business is kettle charters, so don't see how that fits?

It'll be useful for the next time an old codger ignores signals or safety equipment and they're banned from operating said kettle charters.

 

[Suraggu]

Personally I have high hopes for the 125 group being able to pull of the task of owning a complete set, 2x P/Cars and a full rake of trailers. They certainly have the bods with the mechanical and electrical knowhow to look after a complete rake, but as we all know its not cheap keeping rolling stock certified for the mainline and the £££ brought back in from being hired for excursions would only scratch the surface for maintenance costs.

Now I just thought about a shore supply wouldn't be cheap either.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If it did ever happen and it was fitted with ERTMS and the bogies were short swing link bogies, would there be anywhere on the national network that they'd be banned from?

 

[43096]

If it did ever happen and it was fitted with ERTMS and the bogies were short swing link bogies, would there be anywhere on the national network that they'd be banned from?

Yes. Parts of Sussex and Kent don't take C3 gauge stock I believe; power car gauging is also a separate issue. Then there's the Thameslink and Crossrail tunnels. No doubt there are other areas...

 

[Cowley]

Yes. Parts of Sussex and Kent don't take C3 gauge stock I believe; power car gauging is also a separate issue. Then there's the Thameslink and Crossrail tunnels. No doubt there are other areas...

Would they be unable to run on parts of the Cumbrian Coast too? Is there gauging restrictions on that line?

 

[paul1609]

Yes. Parts of Sussex and Kent don't take C3 gauge stock I believe; power car gauging is also a separate issue. Then there's the Thameslink and Crossrail tunnels. No doubt there are other areas...

Out of interest what parts of Kent and Sussex?
442s have reached Brighton, Eastbourne, Ashford, 171s do brighton to Ashford, Voyagers Portsmouth Gatwick Airport and Brighton, Hsts Portsmouth, 166 Gatwick, 158s Brighton

 

[sprinterguy]

Would they be unable to run on parts of the Cumbrian Coast too? Is there gauging restrictions on that line?

Mark 3s can operate over the Cumbrian Coast, though in passenger service between Maryport and Carlisle they require a steward posted at each passenger door.

 

[Cowley]

Mark 3s can operate over the Cumbrian Coast, but only in passenger service between Maryport and Carlisle with a steward posted at each passenger door.

Thanks for that Sprinterguy. Is that just due to clearance issues with the droplights then? As in if they were fitted with bars over the windows then no problem?

 

[ainsworth74]

Thanks for that Sprinterguy. Is that just due to clearance issues with the droplights then? As in if they were fitted with bars over the windows then no problem?

That is my understanding. Hence why Northern's Mk2 operation doesn't need stewards to operate over the same section!

 

[mpthomson]

Thanks for that Sprinterguy. Is that just due to clearance issues with the droplights then? As in if they were fitted with bars over the windows then no problem?

I believe so, any droplight fitted stock stock that operates that section has to have window bars or someone by each door.