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APT-P Powercar Transfer

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XCTurbostar

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Crewe Heritage Centre has announced their intentions to raise money for the transport of the final APT (Advanced Passenger Train) power car from Coventry Electric Railway Museum to Crewe.

https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/apt/

This is a great idea in my opinion and allows the power car to hopefully be repainted and displayed along side the other surviving members.

Thanks,
Ross
 
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theblackwatch

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Interesting, this vehicle was actually formed in the set at Crewe when it was initially preserved in 1988, remaining there until the mid 90s when the rake was shrunk by one car, due, if my memory is right, to space constraints. Hopefully there'll be room to re-marshall into it's correct place in the set.
 

alexl92

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The plan is apparently a cosmetic restoration/preservation and then for it to be stuffed and mounted on a length of track outside the entrance or something like that. Not enough room to fit it back in the APT.
 

43096

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Crewe Heritage Centre has announced their intentions to raise money for the transport of the final APT (Advanced Passenger Train) power car from Coventry Electric Railway Museum to Crewe.

https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/apt/

This is a great idea in my opinion and allows the power car to hopefully be repainted and displayed along side the other surviving members.

Thanks,
Ross
Whilst the idea is good, I don't quite see why it needs to be done. It's an NRM vehicle at a site that is being closed, so the NRM would have to move it anyway. Personally I'd tell the NRM they can pay for the move!
 

DarloRich

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Whilst the idea is good, I don't quite see why it needs to be done. It's an NRM vehicle at a site that is being closed, so the NRM would have to move it anyway. Personally I'd tell the NRM they can pay for the move!

They would say: No problem. We will get it cut up.

Would be great to see it back on the mainline doing excursions

sadly I doubt that could ever happen
 

DarloRich

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Given the state of how the NRM let it get.... This was what it looked like at Shildon in 2011:
http://www.train-photos.com/picture/number12031.asp

They can't even get the photo of it correct on their own website, which shows an APT-E vehicle instead. :|
http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/locomotivesandrollingstock/CollectionItem?objid=1988-7006/7

lets be honest: A failed 40 year old train is of no real importance to their collection. Especially a cash constrained collection.........

( anyway - West Coast rubbish. Stick to East Coast stuff. Much better)
 

HLE

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lets be honest: A failed 40 year old train is of no real importance to their collection. Especially a cash constrained collection.........

( anyway - West Coast rubbish. Stick to East Coast stuff. Much better)

Boring more like!! :lol:
 

antharro

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Bah, naysayers. It's an important piece of railway history, and if it had been given the support and funding it deserved, would have made it to regular service and probably still be around today. IMO, anyway. So even if it's a cosmetic restoration, I'm for it. As long as they do an interior cosmetic restoration at some point. :)
 

Cowley

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The ned in me says what about the APT as hauled stock on the GCRN pulled by 41001 with an RTC liveried barrier coach between it and the APT cars (perhaps they could borrow 24061 from the NYMR and paint it as 97201 again for the return runs ;))?

Recreating these kind of scenes... (not my photo)

5634938D-9324-4E95-92B4-74AA5F5E7350.jpeg

Bit of dynamic testing anyone?
 

Flying Phil

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Nice idea Cowley, it was a shame that the APT didn't get to properly run on the network, but the HSTs have done a fantastic job since then.
 

zn1

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The APT Locomotives (sorry power car) did evolved though Phil to become the 91, essentially the 225 sets are Non Tilt APT, she and her sister are now the mothers of what has become a very successful squadron of Locomotives

as regard this surviving Power car, she sat for years at Litchurch Lane as memory serves, perhaps she and the only networker classic coach (assume she still survives at the lane) should be in the NRM as what ifs ??
 

Darandio

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as regard this surviving Power car, she sat for years at Litchurch Lane as memory serves, perhaps she and the only networker classic coach (assume she still survives at the lane) should be in the NRM as what ifs ??

I think what a lot of people are missing here is the fact the APT is very tarnished, certainly to the general public. A tad harsh perhaps to those of us who are enthusiasts and appreciate the reasons why things happened the way they did, but media coverage has often portrayed the APT with headlines such as 'Laughing Stock'.

You can then see why the NRM have been or are very reluctant to spend anything on it. As somewhere that relies heavily on donations from the general public when visiting, they obviously are very aware of the scrutiny placed on where they spend this money. Many people would probably be appalled to see their money spent on such a 'failure'.

It's also interesting to see how the NRM actually acknowledge the APT, particularly APT-P. On a private visit to research Duchess of Hamilton some years ago, the talk somehow turned to APT-P and the possibility of future access to the power car for another project. The curator showing us around the locomotive and cab that day wasn't impressed at all and it was hard to even get an acknowledgement that the damn thing even existed!
 

JohnElliott

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as regard this surviving Power car, she sat for years at Litchurch Lane as memory serves, perhaps she and the only networker classic coach (assume she still survives at the lane) should be in the NRM as what ifs ??

The Networker Classic coach was scrapped in 2012, according to Wikipedia.
 

fireftrm

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Aren't we all missing the most important point that the APT was actually an incredibly successful technological advance> That the prototype was tarnished cannot be denied, but once it was withdrawn the technology was sold on and the result - Pendolino, as well as the 91+ Mk4. Just how many people will remember the issues APT had, or even have been born in time to experience them?
 

DarloRich

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Aren't we all missing the most important point that the APT was actually an incredibly successful technological advance> That the prototype was tarnished cannot be denied, but once it was withdrawn the technology was sold on and the result - Pendolino, as well as the 91+ Mk4. Just how many people will remember the issues APT had, or even have been born in time to experience them?

How many non spottery types visiting the NRM want to see a failed 1970's train taking up space that could be given over to a nice steam engine.

These threads also show the complete lack of understanding of what the NRM actually is.
 

Flying Phil

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How many non spottery types visiting the NRM want to see a failed 1970's train taking up space that could be given over to a nice steam engine.

These threads also show the complete lack of understanding of what the NRM actually is.

I'm not sure exactly what DarloRich is saying here? Yes, many people visiting the NRM do like it for the splendid steam engines on display, but it is a "Rail Museum" not just a steam engine display unit so, yes, I believe the APT does have a significant place in a National Rail Museum. Surely in the future, more people visiting, will be also wanting to see the early diesel and electric units that they remember seeing and reading about from their youth?
 

Darandio

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I'm not sure exactly what DarloRich is saying here? Yes, many people visiting the NRM do like it for the splendid steam engines on display, but it is a "Rail Museum" not just a steam engine display unit so, yes, I believe the APT does have a significant place in a National Rail Museum. Surely in the future, more people visiting, will be also wanting to see the early diesel and electric units that they remember seeing and reading about from their youth?

I know exactly what he is saying, read my post above to understand why.
 

DarloRich

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I'm not sure exactly what DarloRich is saying here? Yes, many people visiting the NRM do like it for the splendid steam engines on display, but it is a "Rail Museum" not just a steam engine display unit so, yes, I believe the APT does have a significant place in a National Rail Museum. Surely in the future, more people visiting, will be also wanting to see the early diesel and electric units that they remember seeing and reading about from their youth?

The museum is aimed at families and kids wanting a day out. How many 5 year olds or their parents know or care about ATP? Their knowledge of trains is based on going to work every day and little Johnny being obsessed with Thomas.

They aren't spotters and don't want to know about pointless 70's trains that failed. They don't care the technology was used elsewhere. Thinking of when I took my kids: Did they want to look at a class 31? Did they hell. They wanted to see: Mallard, Flying Scotsman, The big Chinese thing, the bullet train and something massive on the turntable.

This is lost on spottery types who don't understand how anyone could have, at best, a mere passing interest in trains. The ATP is an important step in the British railway evolutionary cycle just like the Fell diesel but it wont bring in families into the museum who will then buy plastic Thomas whistles/flags or spend a fortune on cakes and tea. It is those people who the museum is both aimed at and needs to attract to keep it alive.

That needs to be understood when thinking about the NRM. It isnt it's role, nor does it have the ability or the cash, to preserve is aspic an example of everything that has ever existed. It is its job to tell the story of railways in the UK and provide some narrative around that which appeals to the lay person.
 

Flying Phil

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I do understand the need for the NRM to attract the "Lay person" and the family market, which is why I actually said "a National Rail Museum" so that the APT may be kept in an annex (- Shildon or elsewhere?) but my point is still that the importance of a museum and its exhibits should be in preserving/conserving the important/significant/memorable artifacts, not only the popular. However it is a difficult balance given financial constraints.
 

theblackwatch

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Indeed - one of the NRM's jobs (as a charity) is surely to educate the public? Showing only the successes of the railway fails to do this - the history of the railways also includes failures, although it is debatable if the APT was actually one, given that a lot of what was learnt was used in the development of the 91. What was a failure was BR's handling of the APT introduction/scrapping! Both those stories need to be told in a way that appeals to the public.
 

DarloRich

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Indeed - one of the NRM's jobs (as a charity) is surely to educate the public? Showing only the successes of the railway fails to do this - the history of the railways also includes failures, although it is debatable if the APT was actually one, given that a lot of what was learnt was used in the development of the 91. What was a failure was BR's handling of the APT introduction/scrapping! Both those stories need to be told in a way that appeals to the public.

It does educate the public - about the general railway story in this country. It does that through key exhibits which have some back story or can generate interest by way of their size, speed, bulk etc.

Having a story about how a type of train didn't make it into service, for whatever reason, is not (honestly!) going to tempt people into the museum or extract money from their pockets. It is dull and it is boring. No matter what we might think the normal man in the street wont give a stuff about the APT as a stand alone exhibit, especially one about alleged political machinations and project management cock ups. It means nothing to them.

Where it DOES tell a story is when you have several types of titling train and can show the evolution of a game changing design. As a single exhibit is offers very little. The Flying Scotsman/ECML racers idea does that: Stirling Single, Flying Scotsman, Mallard, Deltic, HST and in due course 91 and eventually an 800 thing.

Clearly as they have been entered into the collection the APT cars should be preserved and not cut up. However they should be displayed somewhere where they can be seen in context or add to an existing story. Crewe seems a sensible place to display it alongside a "production" APT model from where its modern relations can be seen whizzing past.
 
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melena

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Given the fact that neither this nor the production APT at Crewe will ever run again, wouldn't it be an idea to section it to see the internal structure and workings labelled up for an educational exhibit? the ability to see cross sectioned innards and explain how diesel or electric trains work, should be shown more. After all, from the outside a diesel or electric loco is just a box on wheels and a coat of paint will still only make it a pretty box on wheels. I'd like to see the grubby, oily guts of the beast as much as the outside!
 

Flying Phil

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I'm sure there is a good case for having a sectioned diesel/electric locomotive (if there is not already one somewhere?) but not from a unique (APT) example - there must be some 31's or similar left unwanted.......
 

Peter Mugridge

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I'm sure there is a good case for having a sectioned diesel/electric locomotive (if there is not already one somewhere?) but not from a unique (APT) example - there must be some 31's or similar left unwanted.......

Agree, if anything is being sectioned it should be something they built lots of; aside from any other reason that would make it more representative anyway. I'd suggest a 37 or a 47 for the diesel and an 86 or 87 for the electric - and display them adjacent to the sectioned Merchant Navy.
 

Cowley

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I'm sure there is a good case for having a sectioned diesel/electric locomotive (if there is not already one somewhere?) but not from a unique (APT) example - there must be some 31's or similar left unwanted.......

Yes I’d agree with that, it’s remarkable that we have what we have of the APT and it’s story is integral to the story of BRs most successful train the HST.
It puts the HST story into context and many of the older generation must remember the battering that BR received at the time on the 9 o’clock news.

Probably better to section a class 91 when they become free at some point for a modern(ish) electric loco.
For a diesel, what about something that’s available, quite common in preservation, overrated and currently on the market - 55016 maybe?
What do you think Darlo..? :D
 

alexl92

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Once the 91s become available, couldn’t they put together a train in the station hall which consisted of a 91 at the terminus end, bits of the APT and other vehicles from electric trains as a kind of history of electric railways? Perhaps an EMU car at the opposite end?
 

Flying Phil

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I see that the Crowdfunding has reached £1340 (which is about half the total required to get the power car moved) and the move could be this month. Whilst the APT was obviously not a success in itself, it did hold the speed record on BR rails for 23 years and still holds the Leicester to St Pancras record 58 mins 30seconds, ave 101 mph.
 

DarloRich

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Yes I’d agree with that, it’s remarkable that we have what we have of the APT and it’s story is integral to the story of BRs most successful train the HST.
It puts the HST story into context and many of the older generation must remember the battering that BR received at the time on the 9 o’clock news.

Once the 91s become available, couldn’t they put together a train in the station hall which consisted of a 91 at the terminus end, bits of the APT and other vehicles from electric trains as a kind of history of electric railways? Perhaps an EMU car at the opposite end?

What story does it tell a family with a 5 year old boy with no interest in railways other than Thomas? That is the main target audience of the NRM. What excitement does a display like that bring? Put yourself in their shoes - what is the hook to catch their interest? Try to look beyond the spottery desire to catalouge everything and explain things in boring Nigelish detail to everyone and consider how you make such a display attractive and capable of sustaining interest.

Explain how you make the proposed display exciting. The 91 continues the East Coast express story built around the jewels in the collection but the rest is just old stuff offering no real context or story.

The NRM has to be more than a depository of stuff. It has to appeal to people and persuade them to visit over any number of other exhibits. Being free helps but people wont come back if the stuff inside is, frankly, dull & boring.

Probably better to section a class 91 when they become free at some point for a modern(ish) electric loco.
For a diesel, what about something that’s available, quite common in preservation, overrated and currently on the market - 55016 maybe?
What do you think Darlo..? :D

Better use the failed Western thing. No none likes them. ;)
 
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