23:30 from Kings Cross to Leeds

[CheeseOnToast]

People get employed to look at passenger demand and consultants charge a lot of £££ to help you, (Google Passenger Demand Forecasting Handbook (PDFH)), if the demand was there questions would start to get asked.

Spare a thought for poor Retford whose last trains from London is the 21:35 ex Kings Cross (I stand to be corrected).

 

[yorksrob]

People get employed to look at passenger demand and consultants charge a lot of £££ to help you, (Google Passenger Demand Forecasting Handbook (PDFH)), if the demand was there questions would start to get asked.

Spare a thought for poor Retford whose last trains from London is the 21:35 ex Kings Cross (I stand to be corrected).

21:35 ex Kings Cross is the last train to Wakefield as well.

It's not about having vast numbers of passengers, its about an InterCity railhead like Wakefield having the full service throughout the day.

They clearly haven't bothered to look at this handbook to ascertain what level of evening usage there would be from Leeds, otherwise they would have done something about the service by now, so I wouldn't expect anyone to have looked at it for the London train.

 

[All Line Rover]

The last train from London to Liverpool is at 21:07. Last to Warrington, Wigan and Preston is at 21:10. There is slightly more late evening demand for these destinations (Liverpool in isolation; Warrington, Wigan and Preston combined) than Wakefield, I would imagine, but not currently enough to entice Virgin to run later services.

 

[yorksrob]

The last train from London to Liverpool is at 21:07. Last to Warrington, Wigan and Preston is at 21:10. There is slightly more late evening demand for these destinations (Liverpool in isolation; Warrington, Wigan and Preston combined) than Wakefield, I would imagine, but not currently enough to entice Virgin to run later services.

Do Virgin run a later train which misses out those stops that would have stopped there at any other time of the day ?

 

[All Line Rover]

There are no late evening intercity trains from Euston except to Wolverhampton (via Birmingham) and Manchester (via Stoke-on-Trent).

 

[yorksrob]

That seems a poor situation to me. But the WCML isn't really my area anymore.

I think the last London - Leeds should call at Wakefield. The fact that it doesn't is down to operating convenience.

 

[Iskra]

There are no late evening intercity trains from Euston except to Wolverhampton (via Birmingham) and Manchester (via Stoke-on-Trent).

That's about right though isn't it? Maybe Liverpool could do with an improvement, but other than that there aren't any population centres worth serving late at night. There's very little in terms of population North of Wolverhampton/Manchester until Glasgow. Chester/Holyhead don't warrant anything either. From when I used to live at Lancaster/Carnforth the late WCML services used to carry fresh air.

There is of course a sleeper service though, which the ECML doesn't have.

 

[tbtc]

It's not about having vast numbers of passengers, its about an InterCity railhead like Wakefield having the full service throughout the day

There's a difference between having a full service throughout the day and all of this worrying about one service a day at half two in the morning not stopping there.

Wakefield is incredibly well served by the trains that pass through it - on the ECML between Kings Cross and Leeds/ Edinburgh, there's only York and Newcastle and York that see that. Plenty of trains run non-stop through Peterborough, Doncaster, Durham etc. Yet there's all of this worry about one train a day that runs non-stop through the Wakefield area?

Odd, since I thought you were all in favour of the diversionary benefits of alternative routes? Since that needs regular driver training to keep their knowledge fresh, we either give one train a day the flexibility over the various chords and lines that see no regular passenger service or we have to run a whole HST ECS around the various routes between Doncaster and Leeds on a regular basis to tick a box? Not very environmentally friendly...

Plus there's the potential for engineering etc. Not every night, not every week, but Network Rail need some flexibility - much better to have a regular window every night than have to close the line during the daytime and inconveniencing lots of passengers. There's a trade off where it becomes more complicated/ costly to deal with occasional disruption (than to not have a service). *if* this one train a day did stop at Wakefield Westgate some time after two in the morning then you'd have to keep the station open for an extra couple of hours, you'd regularly have to deal with a Rail Replacement Bus from Doncaster to Wakefield and a Rail Replacement Bus from Wakefield to Doncaster... just not worth it for the numbers involved.

If it wasn't for the need to get an HST back up to Neville Hill so that it can run a morning duty from Harrogate/ Hull/ Lincoln to Kings Cross then there probably wouldn't be a 23:30 from London to Leeds. Other big cities seem to cope without such a late night service from London - I'm not sure what makes Wakefield so special? There's maybe an argument for better late night services from Leeds southbound, but that's a whole separate discussion - and conflating it with the need for an arrival after two in the morning from London doesn't really help that case.

 

[yorksrob]

There's a difference between having a full service throughout the day and all of this worrying about one service a day at half two in the morning not stopping there.

Wakefield is incredibly well served by the trains that pass through it - on the ECML between Kings Cross and Leeds/ Edinburgh, there's only York and Newcastle and York that see that. Plenty of trains run non-stop through Peterborough, Doncaster, Durham etc. Yet there's all of this worry about one train a day that runs non-stop through the Wakefield area?

Odd, since I thought you were all in favour of the diversionary benefits of alternative routes? Since that needs regular driver training to keep their knowledge fresh, we either give one train a day the flexibility over the various chords and lines that see no regular passenger service or we have to run a whole HST ECS around the various routes between Doncaster and Leeds on a regular basis to tick a box? Not very environmentally friendly...

Plus there's the potential for engineering etc. Not every night, not every week, but Network Rail need some flexibility - much better to have a regular window every night than have to close the line during the daytime and inconveniencing lots of passengers. There's a trade off where it becomes more complicated/ costly to deal with occasional disruption (than to not have a service). *if* this one train a day did stop at Wakefield Westgate some time after two in the morning then you'd have to keep the station open for an extra couple of hours, you'd regularly have to deal with a Rail Replacement Bus from Doncaster to Wakefield and a Rail Replacement Bus from Wakefield to Doncaster... just not worth it for the numbers involved.

If it wasn't for the need to get an HST back up to Neville Hill so that it can run a morning duty from Harrogate/ Hull/ Lincoln to Kings Cross then there probably wouldn't be a 23:30 from London to Leeds. Other big cities seem to cope without such a late night service from London - I'm not sure what makes Wakefield so special? There's maybe an argument for better late night services from Leeds southbound, but that's a whole separate discussion - and conflating it with the need for an arrival after two in the morning from London doesn't really help that case.

They seem to manage to divert via Carlisle without running a train that way every day ?

 

[CheeseOnToast]

21:35 ex Kings Cross is the last train to Wakefield as well.

It's not about having vast numbers of passengers, its about an InterCity railhead like Wakefield having the full service throughout the day.

They clearly haven't bothered to look at this handbook to ascertain what level of evening usage there would be from Leeds, otherwise they would have done something about the service by now, so I wouldn't expect anyone to have looked at it for the London train.

Or maybe they have and not progressed it as the number simply don't add up. There are many schemes people want but reality is if there's no business case then they don't happen.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

They seem to manage to divert via Carlisle without running a train that way every day ?

Are they not route-conducted when they run that way? Something that can be done easily considering the regular services the Tyne Valley line gets. If the various diversionary routes around the Leeds/Wakefield/Doncaster areas had a regular Northern service, the same approach could be used for the scheduled diversions on those routes, so the 2330 could stick to running via Westgate whenever that route was available. That wouldn't necessarily mean serving Westgate though, due to the aforementioned issues with keeping the station staffed and open for a very quiet two-hour period.

 

[yorksrob]

Or maybe they have and not progressed it as the number simply don't add up. There are many schemes people want but reality is if there's no business case then they don't happen.

I'd be very surprised if the other intermediate stations on the route (with the exception perhaps of Peterborough which is more in the orbit of London anyway) somehow magically had a compelling business case for a post 23:00 departure from the Cross that adds up, yet Wakefield doesn't.

Or put it another way, if it makes sense to stop all the other Leeds trains at Wakefield, what is it in the population demographic which makes it so different from the population of Leeds uniquely between the hours of 21:30 and 23:30, but the same at every other time of day ?

 

[yorksrob]

Are they not route-conducted when they run that way? Something that can be done easily considering the regular services the Tyne Valley line gets. If the various diversionary routes around the Leeds/Wakefield/Doncaster areas had a regular Northern service, the same approach could be used for the scheduled diversions on those routes, so the 2330 could stick to running via Westgate whenever that route was available. That wouldn't necessarily mean serving Westgate though, due to the aforementioned issues with keeping the station staffed and open for a very quiet two-hour period.

The other issue is that there is a route Via Hambleton that is completely seperate from the main line between Doncaster and Leeds. Surely it would be enough to divert one train on a weeknight (when people are less likely to be coming back from a gig etc) to maintain diversionary route knowledge, rather than conducting a magical mystery tour around Yorkshire every night.

 

[Tetchytyke]

They do divert one train on a weeknight...The 2330 from Kings Cross. Well, two: they also send the 2200 to Newcastle on a magical mystery tour too.

I don't see the issue. I'd rather stay in London after a show anyway. And I've just booked a Travelodge for £35 next week, so it doesn't even need to be expensive.

 

[yorksrob]

They do divert one train on a weeknight...The 2330 from Kings Cross. Well, two: they also send the 2200 to Newcastle on a magical mystery tour too.

I don't see the issue. I'd rather stay in London after a show anyway. And I've just booked a Travelodge for £35 next week, so it doesn't even need to be expensive.

It doesn't need to be every weeknight.

It's unnecessary extra expense to stay over. I find £35 nights at Travelodge to be as rare as hens teeth, and that's not even in London.

When I used to live in Leeds, I went to a couple of gigs in London and the 23:30 back was ideal.

 

[Bantamzen]

The good people of Wakefield and District face exactly the same problems as the good people of Bradford & District, Huddersfield & District, Skipton, the Aire Valley, Wharfe Valley etc in so much that the last train from London drops them off some distance from their final destination, leaving an expensive taxi or pick-up being required for the remainder of their journey. And the good people of these other areas seem to manage attending gigs, football games etc in the capital.

I understand yorksrob's frustration at a service *sometimes* running it's normal path and still not calling at Wakefield, but I think there are some very valid points made by other users as to why VTEC do not normally path it for the Wakefield line. The bottom line is that if attending a late event in London and aiming for the 23:30, people will either have to choose alighting at Doncaster or Leeds and making their own arrangements for onward travel, or book accommodation and choose a morning service for the homeward leg. Sorry Rob but Wakefield's position as a railhead is merely a matter of historical convenience and not reflective of the City's greater importance in the region. Its got very good connectivity to many parts of the country for the vast majority of the day, so I'm sure you'll forgive other West Yorkshire folk not losing too much sleep about the 23:30.

 

[greyman42]

When the 23:30 does run through Wakefield you can usually catch a TPE connection at Leeds for York. Does anyone know roughly, as a percentage, how often it runs its normal path through Wakefield ?

 

[CheeseOnToast]

It doesn't need to be every weeknight.

It's unnecessary extra expense to stay over. I find £35 nights at Travelodge to be as rare as hens teeth, and that's not even in London.

When I used to live in Leeds, I went to a couple of gigs in London and the 23:30 back was ideal.

It does need to run frequently as different drivers will be diagrammed each night.

If there was a demand operators would do it. Changes can be and are made to match demand e.g. additional calls for colleges etc.

 

[Bayum]

I don't understand why people are calling for the last service to call at Wakefield?

Isn't the reason the train is timetabled to arrive in Leeds later than the usual journey time partly due to engineering works? Surely the train takes a different route to avoid Wakefield for that reason? I know not all trains avoid depending on whether there are engineering works or not, but surely it would be easier to omit a call than have people arriving at Doncaster/Leeds and needing onward travel to Wakefield?

 

[John S2]

If there was a demand operators would do it.

The railway system definitely doesn't work like that. There is a clear demand for later services out of major cities that is not being met. This has a very restrictive effect on people's lives.

 

[Antman]

I don't understand why people are calling for the last service to call at Wakefield?

Isn't the reason the train is timetabled to arrive in Leeds later than the usual journey time partly due to engineering works? Surely the train takes a different route to avoid Wakefield for that reason? I know not all trains avoid depending on whether there are engineering works or not, but surely it would be easier to omit a call than have people arriving at Doncaster/Leeds and needing onward travel to Wakefield?

I think the point is that it is doesn't call at Wakefield purely for operational convenience, ie to save having to provide a rail replacement service when it is diverted away from Wakefield.

 

[bb21]

When the 23:30 does run through Wakefield you can usually catch a TPE connection at Leeds for York. Does anyone know roughly, as a percentage, how often it runs its normal path through Wakefield ?

Last time I looked, fairly often but still only a small percentage. 1D36 is booked in the long-term plan via Askern, Crofton Park and Turners Lane, and frequently does that, because it ticks off various diversionary routes in one journey.

 

[Class 170101]

It's a compromise, just as the 2200 Newcastle routing is a compromise. NR didn't want any of these late night trains to be running, the compromise is they run to the main destination but not necessarily on the usual route. The 0425 from Newcastle almost went for a similar reason.

Like all the rest of the ECML, they should have the nights they actually need for maintenance and stump up for an RRB.

NR weren't prepared to stump up for any costs for Rail Replacement and tried to get these trains removed altogether from the timetable. The 23:30 to Leeds does Tour De Yorkshire 5 nights a week that changes on a daily basis, including revering via York. Indeed it was proposed to start it from St Pancras at one time to get more access.

 

[greyman42]

NR weren't prepared to stump up for any costs for Rail Replacement and tried to get these trains removed altogether from the timetable. The 23:30 to Leeds does Tour De Yorkshire 5 nights a week that changes on a daily basis, including revering via York. Indeed it was proposed to start it from St Pancras at one time to get more access.

I don't understand where York comes into it. Can you explain ?

 

[Antman]

I don't understand where York comes into it. Can you explain ?

Reversing at York which I assume is one of the diversionary routes?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Reversing at York which I assume is one of the diversionary routes?

That was my understanding. Though I'm surprised that needs to be covered, as Doncaster to York is not a rarity for ICEC! Though I suppose York to Leeds is pretty rare for that TOC.

 

[IanXC]

That was my understanding. Though I'm surprised that needs to be covered, as Doncaster to York is not a rarity for ICEC! Though I suppose York to Leeds is pretty rare for that TOC.

I've only ever seen them do that when there is no route available via any of the circuitous routes in South and West Yorkshire. Given we're talking about late night services, I'd suggest they'd be Leeds crew anyway, and they have booked work doing Leeds to York and vice versa on the daily Leeds - Aberdeen and return.

 

[MCR247]

Since when has Wakefield been a 'core' ECML station? At the end of the day, since providing the 23:30 is essentially a compromise, is it really that big of a deal that it doesn't call at Wakefield? Campaigning for later services from Leeds would seem infinitely more useful

 

[J-2739]

Since when has Wakefield been a 'core' ECML station? At the end of the day, since providing the 23:30 is essentially a compromise, is it really that big of a deal that it doesn't call at Wakefield? Campaigning for later services from Leeds would seem infinitely more useful

Wakefield Westgate receives quite a lot of passengers compared to most intermediate stations on the ECML (except Newcastle, York, Stevenage and probably Darlington), so it is quite an important stop to miss.

Just imagine the farce if Virgin West Coast missed out Stockport!!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Just imagine the farce if Virgin West Coast missed out Stockport!!

You don't need to imagine, the 1940 Euston to Manchester does, owing to it being routed via Styal. Similarly the first Manchester to Birmingham (0511) and final return (2230) omit it for similar reasons. All three I suspect are for route knowledge, though without being bothered to check the VT one may fall out with pathing. The two XC services if they ran via Stockport would also be very susceptible to engineering possessions, so it removes some of the risk there, too.