APT-P Powercar Transfer

[Cowley]

Touché .
I don’t think anyone’s (well I’m certainly not) saying it should be on display in the NRM proper*.
Just that it’s an important survivor and that it’s good that it has lasted to be valued by those that appreciate that kind of thing (and there seems to be quite a few looking at the way crowd funding is going).

At the end of the day the NRM has to provide a day out for normal folks (whatever they are) and I think they do a good job of that. They’ve moved a lot of stuff on to other groups in the last few years rather than have them taking up space or slowly deteriorating plus they’ve got Shildon now as well of course.
I’m looking forward to seeing the new museum at Leicester when it opens so that there’s an outpost of the NRM within reach of us.

Personally I’d like to see the story of the research done at the Railway Technical Centre at Derby told properly somewhere as I feel that it was important in the scheme of things (the APT being part of that story - but only a part), but that’s just my wish and it’s probably not going to bring millions of visitors through the door.

* The APT would take up far too much room in the NRM anyway, room that could be used for a giant picture of Darlo standing on a North East cliff top screaming “TRAINSPOTTERS!!” Into the wind...

 

[Clip]

* The APT would take up far too much room in the NRM anyway, room that could be used for a giant picture of Darlo standing on a North East cliff top screaming “TRAINSPOTTERS!!” Into the wind...

They say that on a quiet day you can even hear from as far away as Lincoln

 

[Cowley]

They say that on a quiet day you can even hear from as far away as Lincoln

Yeah, and underneath some trees in Northumberland a small woodland creature sits bolt upright with it’s ears sticking up before quickly scurrying into its burrow in fear.

 

[DarloRich]

Touché .
I don’t think anyone’s (well I’m certainly not) saying it should be on display in the NRM proper*.
Just that it’s an important survivor and that it’s good that it has lasted to be valued by those that appreciate that kind of thing (and there seems to be quite a few looking at the way crowd funding is going).

At the end of the day the NRM has to provide a day out for normal folks (whatever they are) and I think they do a good job of that. They’ve moved a lot of stuff on to other groups in the last few years rather than have them taking up space or slowly deteriorating plus they’ve got Shildon now as well of course.
I’m looking forward to seeing the new museum at Leicester when it opens so that there’s an outpost of the NRM within reach of us.

Personally I’d like to see the story of the research done at the Railway Technical Centre at Derby told properly somewhere as I feel that it was important in the scheme of things (the APT being part of that story - but only a part), but that’s just my wish and it’s probably not going to bring millions of visitors through the door.

* The APT would take up far too much room in the NRM anyway, room that could be used for a giant picture of Darlo standing on a North East cliff top screaming “TRAINSPOTTERS!!” Into the wind...

I agree it needs to be preserved, if only because money has already been spent looking after it and housing it! The APT is important as it led to technology that is at the very moment speeding up and down railways lines throughout Europe. I just think it needs to be displayed in context and it needs to be displayed in a way that appeals to people with limited interest in trains and railways. I think that to do that it either needs to evoke memories of travel or have a compelling history and back story to tell.

For the museum to survive it needs to attract families and normal people. It needs to stay a free museum that attracts lots of people from all walks of life. It wont survive pandering to our boring obsessions alone. At least it has rejected the recent proposals to go all interactive and seems to recognise, now, that the exhibits are interactive enough and are the key selling points for the museum. The fact I can touch, say, Mallard is really important in connecting with the story and history.

I also wish they would sort out Shildon and give it some focus. It is currently just a dump of stuff that doesn't fit at York and really lacks any context. I don't want them chucking stuff out just thinking about how to present it best. I would also be trying to market Shildon and Darlington as one attraction rather than 2 museums.

They say that on a quiet day you can even hear from as far away as Lincoln

To be fair I have a sore throat at present so Lincoln seems about right. I aim for Kings Lynn on a good day.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

...and still holds the Leicester to St Pancras record 58 mins 30seconds, ave 101 mph.

That's the APT-E; the power car that is under the appeal is from one of the APT-P units - a completely different train.

 

[Flying Phil]

That's the APT-E; the power car that is under the appeal is from one of the APT-P units - a completely different train.

Thanks Peter, but I did only say APT - as I realised there were no wires up on the Leicester route at the time......

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yes, but the thread is about the derelict APT-P power car.

 

[Flying Phil]

Yes, but the thread is about the derelict APT-P power car.

Well there has been the odd diversion to NRM policy/objectives/marketing/BR research activities ...and Northumberland woodland creatures! (I was trying to emphasis the Speed aspect of the APT story, as an appeal to the lay NRM audience). About par for a Rail Forum thread......and the crowdfunding continues to rise, so it certainly looks as though quite a few people care for the APT-P Power Car.

 

[Flying Phil]

At the risk of going slightly OT (again!) and thinking of Cowley's earlier post , would it be possible for the Crewe APT set to be run locomotive hauled, even if non-tilting? If not on NR, then on a preserved line - where it would make a welcome change from the ubiquitous Mk1's

 

[Cowley]

At the risk of going slightly OT (again!) and thinking of Cowley's earlier post , would it be possible for the Crewe APT set to be run locomotive hauled, even if non-tilting? If not on NR, then on a preserved line - where it would make a welcome change from the ubiquitous Mk1's

Imagine the froth! Even I’d travel up for a run in an APT.
I’ve had time to plan it all out for the GCRN since my original idea (please note anyone that’s reading this that my tongue is firmly in my cheek).
Here’s my fantasy consist and when I’ve got the crayons out later I’ll draw a picture...
41001 followed by a mk1 in RTC livery as barrier coach *, the APT coaches, then the one remaining driving car with 46010 repainted as 97403 ‘Ixion’ (when it’s running again) for the drag backs.

* I can get trade paint and I’m quick with the roller if any help is needed.

Just a bit of imaginary fun.

 

[sprinterguy]

At the risk of going slightly OT (again!) and thinking of Cowley's earlier post , would it be possible for the Crewe APT set to be run locomotive hauled, even if non-tilting? If not on NR, then on a preserved line - where it would make a welcome change from the ubiquitous Mk1's

It's certainly possible for it to be loco-hauled; there's proper buffing gear and couplings under that pointy nose; but I don't know whether it'd be possible for a loco to provide train supply (no idea if it's got a three phase supply as per HSTs or uses the regular flavour).

 

[sprinterguy]

41001 followed by a mk1 in RTC livery as barrier coach *, the APT coaches, then the one remaining driving car with 46010 repainted as 97403 ‘Ixion’ (when it’s running again) for the drag backs.

One remaining driving car? The set at Crewe is a double ended consist, albeit a short one. Other than that, though, a formation as you suggest would be the dogs danglies.

 

[Ash Bridge]

It's certainly possible for it to be loco-hauled; there's proper buffing gear and couplings under that pointy nose; but I don't know whether it'd be possible for a loco to provide train supply (no idea if it's got a three phase supply as per HSTs or uses the regular flavour).

Is the the APT-P not fitted with an auxiliary diesel engine(s) to power perhaps at least some sort of limited train supply? I do seem to recall on past visits to Crewe Heritage Centre there were occasions when an engine could be heard running from within I think one of the driving cars, tbh I can't find any reference to confirm this though.

 

[43096]

Imagine the froth! Even I’d travel up for a run in an APT.
I’ve had time to plan it all out for the GCRN since my original idea (please note anyone that’s reading this that my tongue is firmly in my cheek).
Here’s my fantasy consist and when I’ve got the crayons out later I’ll draw a picture...
41001 followed by a mk1 in RTC livery as barrier coach *, the APT coaches, then the one remaining driving car with 46010 repainted as 97403 ‘Ixion’ (when it’s running again) for the drag backs.

* I can get trade paint and I’m quick with the roller if any help is needed.

Just a bit of imaginary fun.

Presumably the imaginary bank account is funding it as well......

 

[Flying Phil]

........As we all know, stranger things have happened in the railway preservation world! (Duke of Gloucester running up Shap, Streamlined Stanier pacific on show, 6 A4's together, Welsh Highland Railway, about 10 New build steam locomotives, Diesel Galas.........
....and so far 80 people have paid to save and transfer the Power car to Crewe.

 

[Flying Phil]

I have been thinking quite a lot about the APT since I saw this thread (and will be receiving a copy of the APT book soon!) and wondered how the pantograph works on tilting trains? Does it have a curved contact surface? If so how does that work with the "zig-zag" of the wires, or is the pan kept flat ie has an offset tilting arrangement?
Crowdfunding has over £1700 raised now.....

 

[Ash Bridge]

On the APT-P an anti-tilt mechanism was devised for the pantograph. According to the Hugh Williams book...APT A Promise Unfulfilled... "this was in effect an inverted version of the tilt system with a pair of link rods to the bogie frame to provide a horizontal reference to keep the pantograph head parallel to the track at all times"

 

[sprinterguy]

There's an image on the APT-P site that shows how the anti-tilt mechanism worked:
http://www.apt-p.com/RNTiltPowerCar.gif

Is the the APT-P not fitted with an auxiliary diesel engine(s) to power perhaps at least some sort of limited train supply?

That's a good point, indeed it is - I'd forgotten about that. It's shown behind the cab in this image:
http://www.traintesting.com/images/ScR-Training_notes_Driver.jpg

 

[D6975]

Derby works mid 80s

 

[Ash Bridge]

That's a good point, indeed it is - I'd forgotten about that. It's shown behind the cab in this image:
http://www.traintesting.com/images/ScR-Training_notes_Driver.jpg
View attachment 39503

I'm happy you found that sprinterguy because I'd searched everywhere I could think of but to no avail, it's nice to know my memory wasn't playing tricks (very important at my age)

 

[Flying Phil]

Thanks sprinterguy and Ash Bridge.
I have followed the story of the APT (from a distance) ever since its inception as I (together with about 10 other six form students) had a week long residential with BR at Crewe - Easter 1968 as we had applied for the graduate "thin sandwich" degree in Engineering with BR. A major part was visiting Derby Research Laboratory and seeing what projects graduate engineers would be working on. Testing rigs of all sorts were shown and there was a model of the APT. Sadly, I then failed the medical as I have slight colour vision defect........ Still we did go round Crewe works!

 

[Ash Bridge]

Very interesting shots you have there Phil, presume those are Class 71s undergoing conversion to Class 74 EDs? 1st gen AC electrics everywhere not to mention the 9F, would that be Evening Star?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Here's 370 003 passing Queen's Park at 13.05 on 1st May 1985.

Note that the power cars aren't in the middle; they're the 4th and 5th vehicles... I guess that's one way of stopping the pre-Euston invasion of the first class section!

 

[Cowley]

Peter, D6975 and Phil - Those photos have made my evening, thanks guys.
Sprinter guy - Excellent diagram, I’d seen it before and thought that was the arrangement but it’s great to see how it all worked with a more grown up eye.

 

[Flying Phil]

Ash Bridge - yes it was "Evening Star" being prepped for the NRM. I have checked on the Crewe Heritage website to see if I could visit soon and see the APT but the weekend opening had stopped......but on checking today it says it is open 10 - 4.30! I could be off soon then!

 

[Ash Bridge]

Ash Bridge - yes it was "Evening Star" being prepped for the NRM. I have checked on the Crewe Heritage website to see if I could visit soon and see the APT but the weekend opening had stopped......but on checking today it says it is open 10 - 4.30! I could be off soon then!

Might be worth checking by phone before departing unless you're not far away, weather wise it's a lovely day for a visit though, good luck!

 

[Ash Bridge]

Here's 370 003 passing Queen's Park at 13.05 on 1st May 1985.

Note that the power cars aren't in the middle; they're the 4th and 5th vehicles... I guess that's one way of stopping the pre-Euston invasion of the first class section!

View attachment 39575 View attachment 39576

Great pictures there Peter, I presume the internal access doors to the PCs would have been securely locked to prevent this so would the 370 when used on service trains have required 2 train managers/conductors and how did the onboard catering work I wonder?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I am sure I read that under the original plans each half of the train would have been a mirror image of the other half and double crewed, but I am even more sure that someone who knows more about the APT plans and workings than the rest of us will be along soon to provide full details.

 

[Flying Phil]

Might be worth checking by phone before departing unless you're not far away, weather wise it's a lovely day for a visit though, good luck!

Wise words Ash Bridge.......Unfortunately I had already left home for my 90 mile journey. When I finally found the Heritage centre (No signs on a key roundabout!) the gates were indeed shut. However they were not locked and there were some people inside and I was given permission to enter see the APT set. Another very helpful gentleman opened the doors on the set and I now have a good collection of images.

 

[Flying Phil]

The plan is apparently a cosmetic restoration/preservation and then for it to be stuffed and mounted on a length of track outside the entrance or something like that. Not enough room to fit it back in the APT.

I was interested about this aspect and, whilst the APT set is on a section of track that is just longer than the current set length, there is enough room to lay an extra length of track so the power car could go back into the rake if that was wanted.