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Forgotten Railcard

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seasidersfan

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Hi just a bit worried about something that happened today. I travel from Blackpool North to Preston every day and I have a 16-25 railcard. I book through TrainLine and book an off peak return (with railcard discount) every day. It turns out I forgot my wallet today for the first time which contains my railcard, so on the return leg I was asked to show my railcard which I didn't have. The inspectors were pleasant and offered for me to buy another ticket. I couldn't do that because I didn't have my wallet. I offered instead to purchase another ticket on the trainline app at full price and remove the railcard discount. They didn't allow me to do that (not sure why, I'd say it was equivalent to their offer) and said I'd be sent a letter to resolve the dispute. I assumed at the time that meant a bill in the post with a penalty fare plus admin fee or whatever but when I did some research after getting home I read that I could be getting sent a court summons? Will this really happen and is there any way to just pay a fine and be done with it, especially since this is the first time anything like this has happened? I'd pay a huge sum if it meant not going to court...
 
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robbeech

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It's fairly unlikely that you'll need to go to court for this. The best outcome would be you being given the opportunity to present your railcard to show that you do indeed have one, a likely outcome would be the need to purchase a full ticket from them which would be an undiscounted, perhaps anytime fare, it's also more than possible you'll get one of Northern (if it was them) fixed penalties which is often £80. This might be excluding the price of the ticket. I'm sure others will be able to add more detail.
 

furlong

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Read https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/f...ts/1084-what-can-i-do-if-i-forget-my-railcard :

What can I do if I forget my railcard?

If you hold a valid Railcard, but have forgotten it when travelling, you can claim back any additional expense, including the cost of any extra fare and any penalty fare issued as long as it’s the first time you have claimed.

You must be able to provide proof of your Railcard to the Northern Customer Experience Centre in order to obtain a refund or cancellation of additional charge. This will include the cost of any extra fare incurred if a penalty fare is issued.

Please email [email protected] and include an image of your valid Railcard and the ticket you wish to claim back the difference for.

Please note: You may only apply once for a refund for forgetting your Railcard.
 

sheff1

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Interesting that Northern refer a penalty fare when they do not operate a Penalty Fares scheme.
 

seasidersfan

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Just sent this email to [email protected]. Trying to be on the ball straight away and get it resolved ASAP.

To whom it may concern,

I am writing regarding an incident which occurred on Tuesday 10/10/2017.

On this day I purchased an off-peak open return from Blackpool North to Preston (Lancs) via the Trainline mobile app. The return ticket was purchased at the discounted 16-25 railcard rate of £4.80 shortly before boarding the 10:21 service from Blackpool North to Huddersfield.

However, I had forgotten my wallet on this day, containing my railcard. I did not realise this until the return leg, where at approximately 4PM, I disembarked the return train to Blackpool North at Poulton-le-Fylde. Upon leaving the station I was asked by inspectors to show my railcard. I could not find my wallet and told them that I was unable to present my railcard. The inspectors then offered for me to purchase another ticket, but since my wallet was at home, I was not able to do so. I offered to purchase a second ticket via the Trainline app without the railcard discount but this offer was refused.

I was then asked to provide personal details which I agreed to. I was told that a letter would be sent to my address within 4 to 6 weeks to resolve the dispute. This is the first time I have been involved in an incident like this, and I realise it was a grave and shortsighted error of judgement to forget the my railcard and I thoroughly apologise to Arriva Rail North, Trainline and staff at Poulton-le-Fylde for this. I will be absolutely committed to ensure this, or any similar incident, does not occur again.

I would like to know if it would be possible to come to a settlement before such a letter is received. I would be more than willing to pay any penalty fares, admin fees, and any other associated damages as soon as possible. I have attached to this email images of my railcard, as well as screenshots of the tickets used. I have also included at the end of this email all details that I provided to the station inspectors at Poulton-le-Fylde.

I hope that a settlement can be reached quickly and I once again sincerely apologise for all damages and inconvenience caused to all affected.

Kind regards,
 

gray1404

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If Northern have a policy for dealing with a forgotten railcard they have to apply that here. In other words you provide them with a copy of the railcard and, as its your first time, that's the end of the matter (no refund due as you didn't pay any additional fare.)
 

najaB

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In other words you provide them with a copy of the railcard and, as its your first time, that's the end of the matter (no refund due as you didn't pay any additional fare.)
I'm not so sure about that one. After all, the first step in the process is for the passenger to purchase a new, undiscounted ticket. Since the first step didn't happen it doesn't follow that later steps will.
 

swt_passenger

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I'm not so sure about that one. After all, the first step in the process is for the passenger to purchase a new, undiscounted ticket. Since the first step didn't happen it doesn't follow that later steps will.
I agree. Just because a passenger unilaterally 'short circuits' the system doesn't mean everyone is satisfied. Surely the requirement to buy a new ticket, and then get it refunded later, is intended to encourage the passenger to do the right thing next time...
 

MikeWh

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I agree. Just because a passenger unilaterally 'short circuits' the system doesn't mean everyone is satisfied. Surely the requirement to buy a new ticket, and then get it refunded later, is intended to encourage the passenger to do the right thing next time...
Although it is interesting that he offered to buy a full price ticket online, as that was the only way he could do it, and that action was rejected. Are there any rules that state that online tickets are not allowed in this situation?
 

gray1404

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If Northern accept mobile tickets then they should have accepted it. The OP could argue they offered to by a new ticket and the offer was rejected.
 

Haywain

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Although it is interesting that he offered to buy a full price ticket online, as that was the only way he could do it, and that action was rejected. Are there any rules that state that online tickets are not allowed in this situation?
Isn't it the case the mobile tickets are only valid if purchased and activated prior to travel? That would mean that such an offer would not satisfy the requirement to purchase a new ticket.
 

142blue

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"
I am writing regarding an incident which occurred on Tuesday 10/10/2017.

On this day I purchased an off-peak open return from Blackpool North to Preston (Lancs) via the Trainline mobile app. The return ticket was purchased at the discounted 16-25 railcard rate of £4.80 shortly before boarding the 10:21 service from Blackpool North to Huddersfield.

However, I had forgotten my wallet on this day, containing my railcard. I did not realise this until the return leg, where at approximately 4PM, I disembarked the return train to Blackpool North at Poulton-le-Fylde. Upon leaving the station I was asked by inspectors to show my railcard. I could not find my wallet and told them that I was unable to present my railcard. The inspectors then offered for me to purchase another ticket, but since my wallet was at home, I was not able to do so.

So you got on the train at BPN?
Was a ticket inspection carried out at the gate?
You travelled to Preston
All day there you didn't realise your wallet was missing. Did you not need bank cards at any point during the day
You were in Preston until 3.30pm approximately
Why did you leave at Poulton rather than Blackpool North?

There's a lot of holes in this story that Northern may wish to examine and whilst it is not impossible you may have left home minus your wallet it is open to being disputed
Was a ticket check not conducted at the gates nor was one conducted on the train from BPN to PRE?
If the wallet had been lost or stolen in Preston this story would seem to add up more.

However you have had a return ticket for the journey (good), you have offered to buy a ticket electronically (also good) but you have travelled on a discounted fare without being able to present the card that offers the discount (not good)

I'd be looking at putting right with Northern the cost you should have paid for a ticket without a railcard or if you can now demonstrate you do hold a railcard then appeal to their better nature and apologize and say you have learned from this incident.

It's not the worst thing you hear about on here but I can see their side of it
 

seasidersfan

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"

So you got on the train at BPN?
Was a ticket inspection carried out at the gate?
You travelled to Preston
All day there you didn't realise your wallet was missing. Did you not need bank cards at any point during the day
You were in Preston until 3.30pm approximately
Why did you leave at Poulton rather than Blackpool North?

There's a lot of holes in this story that Northern may wish to examine and whilst it is not impossible you may have left home minus your wallet it is open to being disputed
Was a ticket check not conducted at the gates nor was one conducted on the train from BPN to PRE?
If the wallet had been lost or stolen in Preston this story would seem to add up more.

However you have had a return ticket for the journey (good), you have offered to buy a ticket electronically (also good) but you have travelled on a discounted fare without being able to present the card that offers the discount (not good)

I'd be looking at putting right with Northern the cost you should have paid for a ticket without a railcard or if you can now demonstrate you do hold a railcard then appeal to their better nature and apologize and say you have learned from this incident.

It's not the worst thing you hear about on here but I can see their side of it

Ticket inspections were carried out at all the instances you mentioned, however I was not asked to produce my railcard until 4PM at Poulton-le-Fylde.

Since I brought my own lunch that day I did not need bank cards. I left at Poulton because I was being picked up there by a friend that evening rather than going back to Blackpool and getting a bus.

If you read my second post that's the email I sent to Northern later that evening apologising for the incident and offering to pay any settlement.
 

142blue

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That's a poor showing that no one asked to see the accompanying railcard...
 

Tim R-T-C

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Although it is interesting that he offered to buy a full price ticket online, as that was the only way he could do it, and that action was rejected. Are there any rules that state that online tickets are not allowed in this situation?

If it was purchased on The Trainline it probably won't be a verifiable online ticket, it would be Ticket on Departure. In which case the OP wouldn't actually be able to produce the ticket, just the ToD number. A ToD only becomes a ticket when collected.

Some online sites allow you to claim a refund if you never collect your ticket, so the OP could show the ToD e-mail, then get a refund later.

That's a poor showing that no one asked to see the accompanying railcard...

Pretty standard. I use a Two Together Card and rarely get asked to produce it.
 

142blue

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Erm buy a ticket on TL, choose m-ticket and then activate it in front of them

Again seems odd that a new ticket was only purchased when a revenue check was conducted and that an early dart was made at Poulton, potentially avoiding any revenue check at BPN.
 

Fare-Cop

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The only thing I would add in these cases is that I would insert one little change in this phrase quoted by 142blue "..if you can now demonstrate you do hold a railcard then appeal."

I agree with the principle, but would change that advice to read "..if you can now demonstrate that you did hold a valid Railcard at the time.."

It is a requirement that a valid Railcard must be held and shown at the time of travel when using a Railcard discounted ticket.

I'm not saying this is what happened in this case, but it is not unheard of for a traveller buying a discounted ticket without holding a Railcard to get checked and reported, then go and buy a Railcard afterwards and send a photocopy with an appeal saying 'I left it at home', or whatever.

It is usually very easy to disprove the claim, which gives grounds for a TOC to proceed to more serious action as this evidences an attempt to avoid paying the correct fare.
 

seasidersfan

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The only thing I would add in these cases is that I would insert one little change in this phrase quoted by 142blue "..if you can now demonstrate you do hold a railcard then appeal."

I agree with the principle, but would change that advice to read "..if you can now demonstrate that you did hold a valid Railcard at the time.."

It is a requirement that a valid Railcard must be held and shown at the time of travel when using a Railcard discounted ticket.

I'm not saying this is what happened in this case, but it is not unheard of for a traveller buying a discounted ticket without holding a Railcard to get checked and reported, then go and buy a Railcard afterwards and send a photocopy with an appeal saying 'I left it at home', or whatever.

It is usually very easy to disprove the claim, which gives grounds for a TOC to proceed to more serious action as this evidences an attempt to avoid paying the correct fare.

I sent them an email with an image of the railcard later on the same day as the incident. I'd hope that would be sufficient evidence to prove that I was in possession of the railcard at the time.
 

MG11

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Isn't it the case the mobile tickets are only valid if purchased and activated prior to travel? That would mean that such an offer would not satisfy the requirement to purchase a new ticket.
Hear hear! Also, why did the OP not check they had the supporting travel documents before begining their journey? Before I get on a train, I always double check I have mine.
I find it hard to beleive they didn't realise that they had lost their wallet until the inspection either!
 

seasidersfan

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Hear hear! Also, why did the OP not check they had the supporting travel documents before begining their journey? Before I get on a train, I always double check I have mine.
I find it hard to beleive they didn't realise that they had lost their wallet until the inspection either!

Well that's your opinion, but there would be no reason to lie when I can easily prove that I am in possession of a railcard.
 

seasidersfan

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Response received today. Best possible outcome.

"Dear ___

Thank you for your recent correspondence to this office.

Having read your response I am prepared to close this matter down on this occasion.

Without prejudice please find this matter now closed."
 
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