Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[childwallblues]

The ECS moves this week are crewed by Northern drivers from various depots.

Lime Street drivers signed Liverpool to Crewe when 319 training first started.

 

[Bovverboy]

Originally Posted by Bovverboy
Is the headshunt wired/available for use?

Headshunt/siding (I don't know the technical difference) I believe the answer is no to both, it certainly isn't wired.

Any idea in what circumstances the siding was ever used?

 

[fowler9]

A mate of mine trains drivers on 319s. I'm not sure he signs Weaver Junction to Warrington Bank Quay though or even Bank Quay to Wigan. I'm going to ask him out of interest.

 

[Pj93lfc]

A mate of mine trains drivers on 319s. I'm not sure he signs Weaver Junction to Warrington Bank Quay though or even Bank Quay to Wigan. I'm going to ask him out of interest.

A few weeks ago I was trying to get to Rainhill from lime street on a 319, only to get delayed leaving due to signal issues at Huyton. Apparently these issues seemingly left the Wigan line unaffected. Eventually the conductor came down the train and said they were running the service non stop to Wigan, where they would then go to Earlestown and resume normal service into Manchester. Obviously this was no good for me so I got off and made alternative plans.

 

[Loop & Link]

A mate of mine trains drivers on 319s. I'm not sure he signs Weaver Junction to Warrington Bank Quay though or even Bank Quay to Wigan. I'm going to ask him out of interest.

Lime Street do sign Warrington Bank Quay to Wigan via WCML and Runcorn-Lime Street but not Weaver Jn-Warrington Bank Quay.

The 319 moves were driven by Piccadilly drivers and Lime Street. The moves went Vic-Picc-Crewe-Runcorn-Lime Street

 

[childwallblues]

A mate of mine trains drivers on 319s. I'm not sure he signs Weaver Junction to Warrington Bank Quay though or even Bank Quay to Wigan. I'm going to ask him out of interest.

He probably signs Warringto Bank Quay to Wigan North Western as there is an ecs move in one of the diageams.

 

[50032]

Lime Street do sign Runcorn-Lime Street

Only a small number of Instructor Drivers signed Allerton to Crewe; initially for 319 training but latterly for these positioning moves.

The 319 moves were driven by Piccadilly drivers and Lime Street. The moves went Vic-Picc-Crewe-Runcorn-Lime Street

Last week there was also an ECS to/from Preston-WCML-Parkside Jn-Chat Moss-Picc-Crewe-Allerton. Wigan & Man Vic drivers were also involved AFAIK.

This week there has been a nightly 319 swap between Picc-Vic, reversing at Eccles as the Ordsall Chord is not yet open.

 

[DJH1971]

They are much more reliable than when they first arrived.

Have to admit they do appear to have settled down a bit

 

[Bevan Price]

Any idea in what circumstances the siding was ever used?

The siding at St. Helens Central was last used when oil trains ran to the Pilkington Glass factory at Ravenhead. Rather than back the full load of tankers down the connection to the factory, they would sometimes (but not always) split the train into two 5 tank portions. The rear 5 tanks would be left at St. Helens whilst the front 5 tanks were taken to the factory; the loco would then return to collect the other 5 tanks.

 

[Foggycorner]

I will add at this point that according to the realtime map available http://www.charlwoodhouse.co.uk/rail/livesig/1 Headcodes arrive on Platform 2 at SHC. They then stay locked in the system until the next one arrives and overwrites them. Northbound Services appear a few minutes after departure time in a box heading towards Garswood. It never appears in the Platform 1 box, or in any of the boxes around the Pilkington Oil Sidings.

The train discriptions act this way because a northbound train from platform 2 is not a normal signalled move so the "headcode" will not step to the next signal berth as normal, it dosn't appear in platform 1 because its not been signaled into the platform but past it and up the line to wigan same for pilks oil sidings.

 

[Bovverboy]

He probably signs Warringto Bank Quay to Wigan North Western as there is an ecs move in one of the diageams.

I'm not aware of a 319 ECS between those points, but there is a DMU ECS move, it's after the Ellesmere Ports in a morning.

 

[childwallblues]

I'm not aware of a 319 ECS between those points, but there is a DMU ECS move, it's after the Ellesmere Ports in a morning.

That is the diagram that I was referrinf to.

 

[Bovverboy]

Passing Preston last night I was surprised to see a 319 stabled in Croft Street Sidings, this was additional to two stabled at the normal location of the Carriage Sidings. Only two 319 duties commence at Preston - anyone know what the third unit was doing?

For whatever reason, things seem to have gone adrift this morning - 5F01 (0538 Preston C.S. to Wigan North Western ECS) departed 49L, resulting in a 34L departure for 2C01 (0603 Wigan North Western to Liverpool Lime Street). This left Wigan at 0637, only fractionally before 2C03 (scheduled 0638). The first public departure from Preston, 1F05, departed 22L at 0752.

 

[Loop & Link]

Probably an imbalance after Lime Street blockade.

 

[Bovverboy]

Bovverboy said:
Passing Preston last night I was surprised to see a 319 stabled in Croft Street Sidings, this was additional to two stabled at the normal location of the Carriage Sidings. Only two 319 duties commence at Preston - anyone know what the third unit was doing?

Probably an imbalance after Lime Street blockade.

Can't see it, tbh - had that been the case it would have been sent ECS to Wigan North Western in time to work today's 2F25 0644 to Liverpool Lime Street, and it doesn't seem to have been.

 

[Loop & Link]

Nope, that was definitely the case re imbalance. 5H40 has not long left Preston heading for Liverpool/Allerton

And not possible as it would have meant taxiing a Lime Street crew (who work the 06:44) to Preston to fetch their unit, wouldn’t have been enough time in their docket to taxi to Preston, walk to the sidings, prep the unit and get it there in time for the 06:44.

Allerton would have been able to provide a unit for the 06:44 anyway.

 

[Bovverboy]

Nope, that was definitely the case re imbalance. 5H40 has not long left Preston heading for Liverpool/Allerton

And not possible as it would have meant taxiing a Lime Street crew (who work the 06:44) to Preston to fetch their unit, wouldn’t have been enough time in their docket to taxi to Preston, walk to the sidings, prep the unit and get it there in time for the 06:44.

The 'spare' unit could have been hooked on to the back of 5F01 to get it from Preston to Wigan.

Allerton would have been able to provide a unit for the 06:44 anyway.

So, you're saying, Allerton depot always has at least one spare 319? At the present time, it probably does, indeed. More to the point, you seem to be saying that it's better to send a unit from Allerton ECS to Wigan, in order to work service back, even if there is another unit which could work the service anyway?

If crew duties are as inflexible as you imply, who managed to conjure up a driver to operate 5H40?

 

[Loop & Link]

Spare Wigan/Lime Street Driver, or the Ferry Driver. There are booked spare/Ferry turns.

Plan will have been for the stock for the 06:44 to come off as 5F25 as booked. Not saying always a spare unit but there are more 319’s than actual booked diagrams needed. As unit on 5F25 finishes it’s day at Preston, the unit at Preston will have likely needed to finish at Allerton so no use whatsoever it being on this diagram.

When spare driver available send them up passenger to collect the unit and bring it down empties.

 

[Bovverboy]

Yesterday (Sun 29/10), being in the vicinity of Eccles station at the relevant time, I was surprised to find the 1402 departure for Manchester Airport (1315 ex-Lime Street) formed, not of the usual 319, but of a double Pacer, which did seem consistent with the set being 12 minutes behind schedule. The set was comfortably full, which is what I would have expected, loadings on Sundays on the Lime Street to Airport stoppers being healthy, not least because many of the passengers who would, any other day of the week, have travelled on the 'semi-fast', need to be accommodated.
The following journey (1415 ex-Lime Street), was 16 minutes late at Eccles, and formed of a single pacer. Needless to say, passengers were standing all the way down the aisles.
At that point I noticed a scrolling message mentioning an earlier train failure. Checking it out, it seems that the first journey of the day Lime Street to the Airport stood for 59 minutes at Broad Green, and for a further 18 minutes at Roby. I can only presume that the unit involved was 319374, since I can't see any sign of a unit recovery/substitution. The said unit then continued on the service for the rest of the day, the only subsequent blip being a wait of six minutes at Oxford Road on the immediately following return journey.
The double pacer started out as the 0859 Manchester Piccadilly to Liverpool Lime Street. The first Sunday journey from Piccadilly/Airport (the originating point regularly changes between the two) is diagrammed for a diesel, which, after arrival at Lime Street then usually goes on to CLC stoppers. Yesterday it couldn't (the CLC line was operating from Hunts Cross) so, yes, I can see the point, keep the diesel on Lime Street-Airport all day, it saves leaving a 319 overnight at Lime Street (although that does happen most nights of the week), and solves the problem of what to do with the diesel. All the same, I think, had I been forced to use a diesel, I would have been inclined to use something as closely as possible resembling a 319, e.g. a double 150/2.
The single Pacer wasn't brought into play until 1420 (operating a slightly delayed 1415 Lime Street to Airport). It was 16L arriving at the Airport, 5L departing, and 19L arriving back at Lime Street (at 1721, so a departure would have been a greater amount late than the previous time around). In the event, the next two round trips were cancelled.
All in all the following journeys were cancelled.
0915 Lime Street to Manchester Airport - explanation given, problem with the traction equipment.
0946 Manchester Airport to Lime Street - explanation given, problem with the traction equipment.
1115 Lime Street to Manchester Airport - explanation given, problem with the traction equipment.
1246 Manchester Airport to Lime Street - explanation given, problem with the traction equipment.
1715 Lime Street to Manchester Airport - explanation given, problem with the traction equipment.
1846 Manchester Airport to Lime Street - explanation given, problem with the traction equipment.
2015 Lime Street to Manchester Airport - explanation given, late arrival of an inbound service.
2146 Manchester Airport to Lime Street - explanation given, late arrival of an inbound service.
So that was eight journeys cancelled, out of a scheduled total of 31.
Note that there wasn't much point in running an 0915 journey Lime Street to Manchester Airport, since at 0915 the line was still blocked at Broad Green. Also, the delayed 0812 journey effectively covered, from Roby onwards, the departure times of the 0915, so, to passengers waiting at points Roby onwards, it was effectively the 0812 journey which had missed. (319374 remained on the later timings for the rest of the day).
I'm not particularly blaming Northern for a vehicle failure, but I think I'm more than a little critical that it took from 0940 (when any line blockage was cleared) to 1420 before there was a full complement of trains operating the Lime Street to Manchester Airport service. Whether there was, even then, is arguable. As to what happened after 1715, you get the feeling that everyone just decided to 'give up'.
TPE also seems to have had a bad day, with several cancellations, including that of the last journey of the day Manchester-Scotland (1858 Manchester Airport to Glasgow).

Post Script: I've sort of lost track of how many 319s Northern currently has available for service, but I presume that it's over 20. Of those, I reckon 319374 was the only one in use yesterday.

 

[Loop & Link]

368 failed, complete loss of power.

Block on units coming off Allerton Depot due to the engineering possession which is why 10:15 onwards was a DMU vice the usual 319 and the reason why the failure was unable to be replaced immediately by a DMU/EMU or sent onto the Depot.

Only way to replace the failed unit was to split a Blackpool service for the 14:15.

 

[Bovverboy]

368 failed, complete loss of power.

What happened to it, eventually - was it towed away?

Block on units coming off Allerton Depot due to the engineering possession which is why 10:15 onwards was a DMU vice the usual 319 and the reason why the failure was unable to be replaced immediately by a DMU/EMU or sent onto the Depot.

There are other potential sources of rolling stock in the Liverpool/Manchester area.

Wigan
Newton Heath
Longsight
Stockport

Only way to replace the failed unit was to split a Blackpool service for the 14:15.

What was wrong with splitting the double pacer (10:15) into a single pacer (10:15) and single pacer (11:15)?

 

[50032]

There are other potential sources of rolling stock in the Liverpool/Manchester area.

Wigan
Newton Heath
Longsight
Stockport

Unfortunately on the modern railway, just popping to X, Y or Z to fetch a spare unit doesn't happen.

 

[Bovverboy]

Unfortunately on the modern railway, just popping to X, Y or Z to fetch a spare unit doesn't happen.

There seems to be quite a bit of flexibility between Newton Heath/Longsight/Stockport in respect of which base provides the stock for a particular duty on any given day.

Would Allerton not be authorised to decide what should happen to 319s stabled at various points?

 

[Loop & Link]

It was much easier to run a DMU instead. Rather than use a unit from Preston/Man Vic sidings or Stockport, which would have required a spare driver to bring the units off start of day or the docket to be STP’d or the inclusion of an ECS movement, in the schedule!

So may as well leave the DMU in its diagram and it also meant that it ended its day like it should have done, if it had gone into the CLC!

 

[Bovverboy]

It was much easier to run a DMU instead. Rather than use a unit from Preston/Man Vic sidings or Stockport, which would have required a spare driver to bring the units off start of day or the docket to be STP’d or the inclusion of an ECS movement, in the schedule!

So may as well leave the DMU in its diagram and it also meant that it ended its day like it should have done, if it had gone into the CLC!

I think you're confusing two distinct issues now. We were discussing what action could have been taken after 319368 became defective. You maintained that a unit couldn't be brought from Allerton (possibly true, although there do appear to have been ECS moves between Allerton and Lime Street, over the course of the weekend). I suggested there were other potential sources for a replacement unit anyway.
As to whether or not one of the Lime Street to Airport diagrams needed to be diesel in the first place, I did acknowledge from the outset that the 0859 from Piccadilly was diagrammed for a diesel, and yes, it hardly seemed worthwhile changing it over. Now I'm not so sure.
I do think it would be a good thing if the Stockport 319 were to be brought into use, it's sat there doing nothing on a Sunday. It would be at least as easy to bring it from Stockport to Piccadilly for 0859, as to bring a diesel from Longsight. The distance may be greater, but there are fewer potentially conflicting movements.

 

[Loop & Link]

Trust me, definitely not possible to bring a unit off Allerton on Sunday, hence why the two units for the days service were stabled overnight. Allerton Depot was isolated from 01:00 Sunday morning due to major works on the Weaver-Wavertree Jn project.

Not possible, take units from Stockport you have to rebalance again, and there are no such moves diagrammed in the evening therefore drivers dockets would have to be STP’d.

Also that 08:59 to Lime Street is a Manchester Victoria driver who don’t sign Stockport C.S (if I remember rightly) so not possible to use the 319 from there and again the docket would have to be STP’d to include prep of unit, taxi etc.

Furthermore, unfortunately as much as we’d like to, we can’t just pinch a spare 319, eg: from Stockport, the unit may not have many miles to spare before it hits its exam tolerance, doing a few trips would certainly eat into its miles and this may need to be mitigated at a later date through further swaps so it doesn’t go over its exam tolerance.

 

[Bovverboy]

Trust me, definitely not possible to bring a unit off Allerton on Sunday, hence why the two units for the days service were stabled overnight. Allerton Depot was isolated from 01:00 Sunday morning due to major works on the Weaver-Wavertree Jn project.

Quite. I was aware that there had been several moves to Allerton from Lime Street Saturday evening, indeed the last one wasn't due at Allerton until 0037 (actual 0034). I hadn't known about the 0100 deadline, but I don't disbelieve you on that point. It wouldn't have hurt, though, for a third 319 to be stabled at Lime Street as spare, or even a DMU, for that matter.

Not possible, take units from Stockport you have to rebalance again, and there are no such moves diagrammed in the evening therefore drivers dockets would have to be STP’d.

If it were a regular manoeuvre it wouldn't be an STP.

Also that 08:59 to Lime Street is a Manchester Victoria driver who don’t sign Stockport C.S (if I remember rightly) so not possible to use the 319 from there and again the docket would have to be STP’d to include prep of unit, taxi etc.

It wouldn't need to be the same driver who brought it from Stockport as took it on to Liverpool.

Furthermore, unfortunately as much as we’d like to, we can’t just pinch a spare 319, eg: from Stockport, the unit may not have many miles to spare before it hits its exam tolerance, doing a few trips would certainly eat into its miles and this may need to be mitigated at a later date through further swaps so it doesn’t go over its exam tolerance.

The 319 stabled at Stockport on a Sunday has a full day's work ahead of it before it gets back to Allerton. It could easily be arranged for it to finish at Allerton on the Sunday night. Don't forget that in ten days time most (at least) of the Sunday Wigans/Prestons will be going electric, two duties finish early evening, plenty of scope for juggling.

 

[Geeves]

Sorry Bover boy but you should take note of what Loop and Link says. It really isnt that easy to just go and get a 319 out of the sidings at Stockport on a Sunday. No one in control likes to 'juggle' either if it can be left an alone and an easier fix found then that is what they will do. All it means is that Monday is a mess for the next unit man. For a start there might be no drivers booked on a Sunday at Picc who sign 319s and if they do they do what do you do when it comes to the getting it back and you have no one to move it from platform 13 or 14 because the current driver does not sign to Stockport or the sidings? Its just asking for trouble. Every depot has drivers that sign 142s all day everyday.

 

[Bovverboy]

Geeves, I do sympathise with some of the points you make.
What started this exchange was the situation which prevailed last Sunday when a 319 expired on Chat Moss stoppers, there was no spare unit at Lime Street, and access to Allerton depot was not possible because of engineering possessions.
Whether there should have been a spare unit available at Lime Street is arguable. Had a third 319 been retained overnight at Lime Street (several were sent to Allerton quite late the previous evening) it could have been used on the third Chat Moss duty, and the double pacer which operated the 0859 ex-Piccadilly kept spare - I gather there was adequate platform space available for that to be done.
I made the point that there was a 319 stabled at Stockport which was capable of being used (the two stabled at Manchester Victoria would have been inaccessible) but it seems that the days of one operating base covering for another are gone. Now, if a journey from A to B is cancelled (for any reason) it seems as good as automatic that the following journey from B to A will be cancelled similarly.
I acknowledge that there are far fewer drivers working on a Sunday than on other days of the week (on local work, but not necessarily longer-distance). However there must be a fair few Piccadilly based drivers who sign 319s since there doesn't appear to be any difficulty in finding sufficient, on Mondays to Saturdays, to
1) collect the 319 from Stockport;
2) run it up and down between Piccadilly and the Airport all day;
3) return it to Stockport.
Do none of them work Sundays?
No Sunday journeys on the Chat Moss stoppers are currently scheduled to terminate at Piccadilly, they are all scheduled to run through to the Airport. Therefore a 319 could only end up being stuck at Piccadilly/Oxford Road (yes, observation says that a crew change would be at least as likely to take place there) if the ex-Liverpool driver didn't sign Airports, which seems unlikely. Until 319s are authorised to run to/from Wilmslow (which I presume they are not at the moment) then the route from the Airport to Stockport CMD could only be via Piccadilly. Once back at Piccadilly you would have all night to find a driver to take it to Stockport. Better still, why not leave it at Piccadilly?
When I referred to 'juggling' I didn't intend to imply doing it on the spur of the moment, I meant rearranging the 319 duties to ensure that the 'Stockport' 319 finished its day at Allerton, and that's easy enough to do.

 

[Bovverboy]

Surprisingly (at least to myself), the enhanced Sunday service between Liverpool Lime Street and Wigan North Western commenced yesterday, contrary to Northern's own publicity (which says it isn't due to commence until 10 December). However the extra journeys weren't calling at Eccleston Park or Bryn (which they're scheduled to do from December) but conversely were calling at Broad Green and Roby (which should cease from December). Another difference from the published 10 December timetable was that there was no (scheduled or actual) 1825 Liverpool to Wigan/1913 return.
RTT indicates that the above will run Sundays to 3 December. All journeys are being shown, on each relevant date, as STP, but become 'regular' after that date.
As expected, all journeys observed were 319-operated, so the Sunday turnout for the type has suddenly gone up from three units to eight.