RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[6Gman]

You could apply for his role if you wish......and if you happen to be successful, I daresay ( no offence intended ) some forumite would call you a clown......because that is the nature of politics.

What is his role these days? How many Mayors are there in Liverpool now?

 

[Bletchleyite]

As the passenger ignored the warning how would DOO have been different?

 

[pemma]

What is his role these days? How many Mayors are there in Liverpool now?

The new regional 'Metro Mayors' don't replace the existing mayor of the city. London has Charles Bowman as Mayor of City of London as well as Sadiq Kahn, while the situation is similar in Birmingham and Manchester. The difference with Liverpool is the Mayor of the City of Liverpool is elected by the the general public, not by local councillors. As Mayor of City of Liverpool Joe Anderson places like Birkenhead, Southport, St Helens and Runcorn all fall outside his area of remit, while they are all inside Steve Rotheram's area of remit.

 

[pemma]

Jan Chaudhry-van der Velde is to leave Merseyrail to become MD of the new West Midlands franchise, he'll be replaced by Andy Heath.

 

[Carlisle]

Jan Chaudhry-van der Velde is to leave Merseyrail to become MD of the new West Midlands franchise,

As he’s spent over a year promoting DOO on Merseyrail, if West Midlands opt to retain conventional guards on all trains it’ll be a bit of a turnaround hearing him defend that .

 

[Bletchleyite]

As he’s spent over a year promoting DOO on Merseyrail, if West Midlands opt to retain conventional guards on all trains it’ll be a bit of a turnaround hearing him defend that .

As I've said on the DOO threads including this one, Merseyrail is rather a special case. I think it is quite easy to defend no DOO on a system with no level boarding (and none proposed) and where there is substantial inter-running with other trains. As I have said, Merseyrail is different - it's a metro system that is only part of National Rail for reasons of historical accident - had it been built 5-10 years later it almost certainly would have stood alone (and been DOO already). Even the Cross City, which *appears* to have parallels, is fundamentally different and is more like Manchester's suburban operations.

Furthermore, Merseyrail DOO is the PTE's idea, not the franchisee's. If Merseytravel provided funding for guards I'm sure guards would have continued.

 

[Carlisle]

As I've said on the DOO threads including this one, Merseyrail is rather a special case. I think it is quite easy to defend no DOO on a system with no level boarding (and none proposed) and where there is substantial inter-running with other trains. As I have said, Merseyrail is different - it's a metro system that is only part of National Rail for reasons of historical accident - had it been built 5-10 years later it almost certainly would have stood alone (and been DOO already). Even the Cross City, which *appears* to have parallels, is fundamentally different and is more like Manchester's suburban operations.

Furthermore, Merseyrail DOO is the PTE's idea, not the franchisee's. If Merseytravel provided funding for guards I'm sure guards would have continued.

If as it appears, govt is happy to bankroll the other TOCs to switch to a more flexible OBS style system or in some cases full DOO on new and/or compatable stock, then there’s no compelling reason other than fear of industrial action it can’t happen on certain West Midlands routes too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If as it appears, govt is happy to bankroll the other TOCs to switch to a more flexible OBS style system or in some cases full DOO on new and/or compatable stock, then there’s no compelling reason other than fear of industrial action it can’t happen on certain West Midlands routes too.

Indeed so, but it has no relevance to whether the new MD came from Merseyrail or not.

 

[HH]

In any case, as an MD you pretty much have to toe the corporate line. If you're one who doesn't like to do that, the you steer clear of going for the job.

 

[Kite159]

Who is taking over the controls of Merseyrail when Jan Chaudhry-van der Velde moves on (if that has been announced)?

 

[pemma]

Who is taking over the controls of Merseyrail when Jan Chaudhry-van der Velde moves on (if that has been announced)?

Andy Heath as mentioned in post 1474.

 

[Kite159]

Andy Heath as mentioned in post 1474.

Can't read this morning

Nice promotion for Mr Heath, no doubt some will have knives out ready [judging by a couple Twitter posts] if he tows the line wanted by Merseytravel

 

[pemma]

Can't read this morning

Nice promotion for Mr Heath, no doubt some will have knives out ready [judging by a couple Twitter posts] if he tows the line wanted by Merseytravel

An experienced railwayman from Liverpool, replacing someone with a Dutch sounding name from Barnet is probably more likely to hinder the RMT's campaign than to get Merseyrail to change Merseytravel's mind.

 

[HH]

An experienced railwayman from Liverpool, replacing someone with a Dutch sounding name from Barnet is probably more likely to hinder the RMT's campaign than to get Merseyrail to change Merseytravel's mind.

Jan might have a Dutch sounding name, but he is a very experienced (UK) railwayman.

 

[pemma]

Jan might have a Dutch sounding name, but he is a very experienced (UK) railwayman.

Indeed. However, when the RMT are quoted as saying the Dutch are forcing something on us and the response is from Jan Chaudhry-van der Velde who works for a train operator part owned by a Dutch company, to someone who doesn't know better it sounds like the RMT are making a valid point when they aren't.

 

[Kite159]

Latest press release from the RMT regarding Merseyrail

22 November 2017

RMT Press Office:

As MPs prepare to debate Merseyrail guards’ action RMT sets out road map to resolve dispute.

As MPs prepare to debate the Merseyrail guards’ industrial action at Westminster this evening RMT General Secretary Mick Cash has written to the Metro Mayor Steve Rotheram, Mayor of Liverpool Joe Anderson and other political leaders in the Liverpool City Region proposing a road map to resolve the dispute.

In the letter RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said,

“Thank you for your letter of 16th November 2017 proposing independent conciliation to resolve this dispute which you sent to RMT and Merseyrail.

RMT is always ready to go the extra mile to resolve this dispute and we await confirmation of any talks from the recognised independent conciliator, ACAS, to see if they can assist.

But he who pays the piper plays the tune and the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority is ultimately paying Merseyrail and only you can tell them to change their tune to end this dispute.

Therefore for these discussions to be meaningful they have to be underpinned by the following two commitments from you.

Firstly whilst it was the council leaders who kick started this dispute in first place by voting for the introduction of driver only trains it is now the Metro Mayor and the same council leaders who can assist in resolving this dispute by publicly telling Merseyrail you support keeping a guard on every train.

Secondly you will ensure Merseyrail, and not the Merseyside tax payers, are liable for any lost revenues as a result of the dispute. At the moment Merseyrail have no incentive to settle the dispute because the terms of their contract means it will be the Merseyside taxpayer who pick up the costs.

If your proposal for independent conciliation is not underpinned by these commitments then passengers will conclude you are merely engaged in a political stunt.

My official John Tilley had previously wrote to you over six weeks ago seeking a meeting to set out a road map to assist in resolving this dispute and bar an acknowledgment from the Metro Mayor there has been no response. I therefore look forward to a prompt reply to this letter.”

ENDS


Notes to editors
The parliamentary debate has been secured by Dan Carden, Labour MP for Liverpool, Walton
The letter from Mick Cash has been sent to and in response to a letter from the below which was sent to:
Steve Rotheram, Metro Mayor of the Liverpool City Region
Joe Anderson, Mayor of Liverpool
Cllr Rob Polhill, Leader of Halton Council
Cllr Andy Moorhead, Leader of Knowsley Council
Cllr Ian Maher, Leader of Sefton Council
Cllr Barrie Grunewald, Leader of St Helens Council
Cllr Phil Davies Leader of Wirral Council

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-sets-out-road-map-to-resolve-merseyrail-dispute/

It will be interesting to see what comes out of the discussion in parliament later, if it gets mentioned.

 

[Robertj21a]

Latest press release from the RMT regarding Merseyrail



https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-sets-out-road-map-to-resolve-merseyrail-dispute/

It will be interesting to see what comes out of the discussion in parliament later, if it gets mentioned.

Can't see the point in any meeting if Mick Cash thinks he can dictate those terms.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is and can be no negotiation. DOO is planned, and DOO will happen, and so it should on Merseyrail. There is no scope for concession on either side, as there is either DOO or there is not DOO. OBS or similar would not be a benefit to either side in this case.

If the RMT want this to end like the dockers' dispute, they can have that if they like.

The only thing worth negotiating on is how the displaced guards are dealt with. In my view, as the new trains will be introduced slowly, there is scope for this to be done with very few if any compulsory redundancies.

Until the RMT recognise this, this is just going to drag on and on. It's nothing like Southern, nor Northern, nor any of the others. There is simply no case whatsoever[1] for having guards on a metro system with full level boarding. None whatsoever. And hardly any the world over have them as a result. And there are active benefits of DOO, such as 10 seconds off each station stop.

[1] There is a case for targetted on board staff like ticket checkers and security guards, however, as well as dispatchers at certain stations.

 

[Robertj21a]

There is and can be no negotiation. DOO is planned, and DOO will happen, and so it should on Merseyrail. There is no scope for concession on either side, as there is either DOO or there is not DOO. OBS or similar would not be a benefit to either side in this case.

If the RMT want this to end like the dockers' dispute, they can have that if they like.

The only thing worth negotiating on is how the displaced guards are dealt with. In my view, as the new trains will be introduced slowly, there is scope for this to be done with very few if any compulsory redundancies.

Until the RMT recognise this, this is just going to drag on and on. It's nothing like Southern, nor Northern, nor any of the others. There is simply no case whatsoever[1] for having guards on a metro system with full level boarding. None whatsoever. And hardly any the world over have them as a result. And there are active benefits of DOO, such as 10 seconds off each station stop.

[1] There is a case for targetted on board staff like ticket checkers and security guards, however, as well as dispatchers at certain stations.

Agreed. If the RMT pursue this issue on Merseyrail it will do nothing whatsoever for their credibility.

 

[WatcherZero]

The RMT press release lacks coherence, they recognise that its the local authority pushing for DOO rather than the operator but then demand that the operator pays for the cost of the strikes rather than the local authority.

 

[Wombat]

Am I misreading the proposal, or does the RMT's roadmap chiefly consist of the Mersey authorities acquiescing to the RMT's demands?

I mean, yes, obviously it does. What I find odd is the evident lack of any sort of subtlety. I'm genuinely starting to think that the RMT doesn't care how it appears to the general public, because it thinks that its members are a bit stupid and won't recognise the paucity of its rhetoric.

 

[trainophile]

So when do we find out whether Merseyrail are going to be following suit in the latest RMT strike announcements? I need to know!

 

[gavin]

24-hour strike announced for December 22nd

 

[DMU180]

The interesting thing at the moment with the Merseyrail dispute is the fact that Merseyrail staff seem to be the only ones who don't see through the RMT's rhetoric. Speaking to staff at other DOO striking companies they seem to be happy with their companies offer and want to make a deal. They are beginning to see through the RMT's power grab as they know that without the doors the RMT have no power to stop trains running.

 

[387star]

Labour say they will stop DOO so RMT have a fair point must be politically embarrassing !

 

[trainophile]

24-hour strike announced for December 22nd

So, at a tangent but trying to sort my plans out, anyone know if Northern are going to follow suit on 22/12?

 

[pemma]

Labour say they will stop DOO so RMT have a fair point must be politically embarrassing !

Andy McDonald's recent quote is currently meaningless unless there's an early election or further DOO is announced. He hasn't promised to reverse any DOO which has already been implemented and I don't think any post-2022 DOO schemes have yet been approved.

 

[pemma]

24-hour strike announced for December 22nd

Last Friday before Christmas - the traditional work office party/Christmas dinner date. A lack of evening trains that day might have a huge effect on local restaurants and bars.

 

[M28361M]

Last Friday before Christmas - the traditional work office party/Christmas dinner date. A lack of evening trains that day might have a huge effect on local restaurants and bars.

Also coincides with the third day of a four-day strike by Arriva North West bus drivers, assuming that isn't called off after further talks.

 

[Kite159]

So, at a tangent but trying to sort my plans out, anyone know if Northern are going to follow suit on 22/12?

Based on previous strike days, I would put money on strikes getting announced for the same day for Northern/GA/SWR & maybe Southern, maybe even XC.

As for labour saying they will do something if they get into power doesn't always reflect on what they actually do if they should get into power, they will probably set up a committee to look into it.

Although judging by the latest press release, they have finally worked out it isn't Merseyrail themselves wanting DOO, but the councillors holding the pulse strings at Merseytravel

RMT Press Office:

RMT confirms 24 hours of strike action on Merseyrail on December 22nd in fight for guards and rail safety.

RAIL UNION RMT confirmed today that members on Merseyrail will take a further 24 hours of strike action on December 22nd, in the dispute over guards and rail safety, that the union says could be easily resolved if senior Merseyside Labour politicians followed national Labour Party policy and supported their safety-critical rail staff, instead of acting as human shields for profiteering private rail companies.‎

RMT has attacked political stunts from the Mayors in the regional media designed to deflect from the massive criticism they are getting from both inside and outside the Labour Party.

Those political actions by the Mayors have let the rail company off the hook and have been a major factor in the reason that there has been no invitation to attend any meaningful talks with ACAS, the company or anyone else as normal industrial relations have been effectively suspended.

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said;
“Our members on Merseyrail are angry that senior Labour figures have chosen to ignore party policy on Driver Only Operation to side with the private company rather than our safety-critical guards. If those politicians had taken a positive and pro-active stance, like their colleagues in Wales and Scotland, we could move towards a solution to this dispute which puts safety first.

“The fact that we have been unable to make any progress whatsoever with the company means we have no option but to put this action on and the blame lies with Merseyrail and their political supporters.
“The City and Regional Labour leaders need to step back immediately from the terms of the resolution to remove all the guards, that they voted for a year ago this week, which lit the fuse in this dispute.

“Those senior Labour politicians have chosen the wrong side. They need to stand with the many – the passengers, the workers and the people of Merseyside, and not the few – Tory ministers and bosses of the private operator Merseyrail.‎"

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-confirms-24-hours-of-strike-action-on-merseyrail/