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Will the Blackpool South line be electrified?

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Xenophon PCDGS

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There has been much said over the years in website threads concerning the conversion of the Blackpool South line to an extension of the present tramway system. Both the first line Manchester Metrolink conversions of the Manchester to Bury line and the Manchester to Altrincham line now have had years in which to evaluate how well passenger growth has taken place under a modern light railway system would benefit the Blackpool South heavy rail line if installed on that line, noting the recent upgrade to the Blackpool Tramway.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Agreed - I just can not see a tramway all the way to Kirkham and Wesham though. -To Lytham St Annes yes - but not all the way. I know there will be no business case - but a 319 trimode - not too crazy if you restore the curves etc at Burscough - run on AC under the wires, DC into Liverpool and diesel onto Blackpool South or Southport - now my mind is racing and I am being a crayonist aren't I?
 

Bald Rick

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There has been much said over the years in website threads concerning the conversion of the Blackpool South line to an extension of the present tramway system. Both the first line Manchester Metrolink conversions of the Manchester to Bury line and the Manchester to Altrincham line now have had years in which to evaluate how well passenger growth has taken place under a modern light railway system would benefit the Blackpool South heavy rail line if installed on that line, noting the recent upgrade to the Blackpool Tramway.

The difference there Paul is that the Bury and Altrincham branches ran to the country's 3rd city and through generally built up areas. There is next to nothing between Lytham and Kirkham.
 

Chester1

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The difference there Paul is that the Bury and Altrincham branches ran to the country's 2nd city and through generally built up areas. There is next to nothing between Lytham and Kirkham.

I have corrected that post for you...
 

Elecman

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Resignalling full stop, as the junction at Kirkham has to be controlled from the ROC they need signalling to know where trains are on the branch
 

Chester1

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shouldn't that read 3rd city as I’m sure Birmingham is bigger than Manchester

It was a joke! Although to answer your question the City of Manchester borough has 550,000 people while City of Birmingham has 1.1m. However, most of Salford, half of Trafford and parts of Stockport, Tameside, Oldham and Bury boroughs are within the M60 (and part of the city stretches south of the motorway). All ten boroughs of Greater Manchester have a combined population of 2.6m vs West Midlands 2.8m. Both have borders created in the early 1970s for political reasons. Birmingham has the edge at the moment but it is a pretty close race.
 

mwmbwls

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If the Blackpool South line isn't being electrified, why are all the overbridges on that line in Blackpool currently closed? Proved to me quite a problem last night trying to get to St Annes from Blackpool town centre.

It is not a railway issue but a significant number of road bridges in Blackpool had become life expired and required remedial work. Funded in part by the LEP this work has now been done on bridges over the Blackpool North line and the focus has now shifted to the Blackpool South route.
 

PR1Berske

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Agreed - I just can not see a tramway all the way to Kirkham and Wesham though. -To Lytham St Annes yes - but not all the way. I know there will be no business case - but a 319 trimode - not too crazy if you restore the curves etc at Burscough - run on AC under the wires, DC into Liverpool and diesel onto Blackpool South or Southport - now my mind is racing and I am being a crayonist aren't I?

Both Lancs CC and Merseytravel see no business case for reopening the Curves, so yes, you are :p :)
 

seasidersfan

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Tramway to Lytham is clearly viable. It's almost all an urban area with a healthy tourist economy to boot. Probably not to Kirkham though.

I read something a while back that the majority of people from Lytham and St Anne's commute to Blackpool over anywhere else.

Given that the fact the current Blackpool South terminus doesn't get anywhere near the town centre, employment, or tourist areas, a tram seems the obvious solution. It could also be done partially on a parallel line so that heavy rail to Preston is retained.
 

Chester1

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Tramway to Lytham is clearly viable. It's almost all an urban area with a healthy tourist economy to boot. Probably not to Kirkham though.

I read something a while back that the majority of people from Lytham and St Anne's commute to Blackpool over anywhere else.

Given that the fact the current Blackpool South terminus doesn't get anywhere near the town centre, employment, or tourist areas, a tram seems the obvious solution. It could also be done partially on a parallel line so that heavy rail to Preston is retained.

Partially parallel would not work because single track would be too much of a bottleneck for the trams. The line between Squires Gate and Blackpool South would close too. Cutting back the heavy real service to Lytham would allow it to become half hourly without needing better signalling, a passing loop or an extra unit. I think the business case is good but the link to Blackpool North is the current priority.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Partially parallel would not work because single track would be too much of a bottleneck for the trams. The line between Squires Gate and Blackpool South would close too. Cutting back the heavy real service to Lytham would allow it to become half hourly without needing better signalling, a passing loop or an extra unit. I think the business case is good but the link to Blackpool North is the current priority.

Is there already a tramway link to Blackpool North station in the current area proposals?
 

Chester1

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Is there already a tramway link to Blackpool North station in the current area proposals?

Enabling work started last week, the link and Blackpool North tram stop should open April 2019. It is a much smaller project but it is understandable it takes priority over heavy rail conversion.
 

seasidersfan

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Partially parallel would not work because single track would be too much of a bottleneck for the trams. The line between Squires Gate and Blackpool South would close too. Cutting back the heavy real service to Lytham would allow it to become half hourly without needing better signalling, a passing loop or an extra unit. I think the business case is good but the link to Blackpool North is the current priority.

I agree in principle. It's just that I know many use the trains from St Anne's to Preston. As for bottlenecks if you have a look at Croydon, they have a single tram line that runs parallel to a single rail line, with tram passing loops. It works fine there and probably with a higher frequency than this would be.
 

47802

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I would have thought that it might be better to get rid of heavy rail entirely on the branch and send it through to Kirkham OK its been said there is not much between Kirkham and Lytham but it would eliminate a short heavy rail branch and allow interchange with heavy rail services at Kirkham.

The Blackpool South line always amuses me the way it stops in the middle of the wasteland that used to be the approach to Central. You would think that a halt nearer Central should have been built or even retained a platform at Central but then I guess that would have attracted too many passengers when North was meant to become the main station. I gather the decision to close Central rather than North was more the decision of the council than the railways as they wanted to redevelop the land which I find ironic OK we have a direct route to the M55 and an oversized Car Park but it still looks like a bit of a wasteland even today.
 

Bletchleyite

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Tram to Kirkham doesn't sound a bad idea at all to be honest.

That would leave Ormskirk to Colne as the remaining West Lancashire Line service, a bit easier than the proposed 3-way shuffle (albeit involving a reverse).
 

61653 HTAFC

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Apologies if this is a bit crayontastic, but how would a tram extension from the Rigby Road depot spur towards South station sound? Stops at the football ground and station then (street running) tracing the perimeter of the pleasure beach as far as the airport before curving around to rejoin the existing line at Starr Gate? :idea:

Paying for it? That's another story of course!
 

uww11x

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Tram to Kirkham doesn't sound a bad idea at all to be honest.

That would leave Ormskirk to Colne as the remaining West Lancashire Line service, a bit easier than the proposed 3-way shuffle (albeit involving a reverse).

Won't happen. The work required to join the Light Rail and Heavy Rail up would be to big. Also there is not enough Flexities to run the service. The depot was only built to hold around 18-19!
 

randyrippley

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Blackpool Central's fate was sealed when a Blackburn Botha crashed on it during WWII. It was never properly rebuilt, doing so would have required cash that wasn't available. Maybe BR wanted to prioritise it over Blackpool North, but the reality was there was no way it was ever going to be properly reconstructed. Maybe the council did want to make a land grab, but even if they hadn't, Central - at some point - would have closed

http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/news/65th-year-of-resort-s-worst-air-disaster-1-403063
http://laituk.org/Botha-Defiant.htm

As for extending the tram to St Annes / Lytham, why not simply run them down the main coastal road south of Squires Gate, just as they used to do? Wide road, plenty of space. In fact the road was intended as a tramway when built. Just use it as intended
 

pemma

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Mk 4s being cascaded is doubtful (it has had its its own threads, of which the current one is here), but the electrification is very real, has been going on for a while (years if you count from the first bridge raisings), and the climax started this weekend.

The existence of a Blackpool-Manchester electrification thread with over 5000 posts is a clue.

Open Access company GNWR proposed using off-lease mk4s to Blackpool North in their latest proposal. New 390s are no longer an option, while CSRE UK seem to have disappeared in to think air.
 

pemma

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Yes I think that's the plan. Would require rather less electrification than Colne but still unlikely to have a good business case.

Indeed. If we were to list every route that would 'only need a short section of wires' to become fully electric then we'd have a very long list and those with higher frequencies and/or longer trains will likely have a better business case for electrification.
 

edwin_m

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Partially parallel would not work because single track would be too much of a bottleneck for the trams. The line between Squires Gate and Blackpool South would close too. Cutting back the heavy real service to Lytham would allow it to become half hourly without needing better signalling, a passing loop or an extra unit. I think the business case is good but the link to Blackpool North is the current priority.
Apologies if this is a bit crayontastic, but how would a tram extension from the Rigby Road depot spur towards South station sound? Stops at the football ground and station then (street running) tracing the perimeter of the pleasure beach as far as the airport before curving around to rejoin the existing line at Starr Gate? :idea:
The connection would be most likely to be at Pleasure Beach where the two routes are close together and a link wouldn't require any demolition. This was looked at a few years ago as part of an idea for a tram-train to Preston. It would close Blackpool South to Pleasure Beach but the tramway is available a short distance away on the promenade. Not sure what's left at Rigby Road but I think most of it would need demolishing to create a conneting route through the site without lots of tight curves.

As to Starr Gate, I think anything like this would result in Blackpool having two tram "routes", one from Starr Gate for the length of the Promenade (possibly high season and Illuminations only) and the other from wherever the terminus was on the Lytham line, in and out of North station and on to Fleetwood.
Blackpool Central's fate was sealed when a Blackburn Botha crashed on it during WWII. It was never properly rebuilt, doing so would have required cash that wasn't available. Maybe BR wanted to prioritise it over Blackpool North, but the reality was there was no way it was ever going to be properly reconstructed. Maybe the council did want to make a land grab, but even if they hadn't, Central - at some point - would have closed
If the will had been there then the single track could have been extended and the single-platform terminus located at Central instead of South. This could even be done today at the cost of some parking. A tram link from Central to the Promenade would also be possible.
 

uww11x

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The connection would be most likely to be at Pleasure Beach where the two routes are close together and a link wouldn't require any demolition. This was looked at a few years ago as part of an idea for a tram-train to Preston. It would close Blackpool South to Pleasure Beach but the tramway is available a short distance away on the promenade. Not sure what's left at Rigby Road but I think most of it would need demolishing to create a conneting route through the site without lots of tight curves.

As to Starr Gate, I think anything like this would result in Blackpool having two tram "routes", one from Starr Gate for the length of the Promenade (possibly high season and Illuminations only) and the other from wherever the terminus was on the Lytham line, in and out of North station and on to Fleetwood.

If the will had been there then the single track could have been extended and the single-platform terminus located at Central instead of South. This could even be done today at the cost of some parking. A tram link from Central to the Promenade would also be possible.

The whole of the Rigby Road track is in terrible condition. The bus side of operations is likely to be made into housing with the buses being moved to near the airport. The tram depot won't be touched. Starr Gate-Fleetwood is core route which means running it all year round!
 

pemma

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There has been much said over the years in website threads concerning the conversion of the Blackpool South line to an extension of the present tramway system. Both the first line Manchester Metrolink conversions of the Manchester to Bury line and the Manchester to Altrincham line now have had years in which to evaluate how well passenger growth has taken place under a modern light railway system would benefit the Blackpool South heavy rail line if installed on that line, noting the recent upgrade to the Blackpool Tramway.

There is a complication though. At Knutsford rail usage more than doubled in ten years despite poor quality rolling stock, journey times being extended and some peak time services no longer going in to Manchester. Given that fact how much does Metrolink usage from Altrincham need to increase by to consider the conversion a success, considering the off-peak frequency is a lot more frequent than it was under BR and Metrolink has twice introduced brand new vehicles since the Pacers and Sprinters were introduced on the National Rail network?
 

randyrippley

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If the will had been there then the single track could have been extended and the single-platform terminus located at Central instead of South. This could even be done today at the cost of some parking. A tram link from Central to the Promenade would also be possible.

I agree that could be done, but my comment was directed at those who keep maintaining that Central should have been retained as the main terminus and North run down. After the crash there was no way that Central could be retained long-term: the finance would not have been there to rebuild it. Closing it and selling the large amount of land at least allowed North to survive. Otherwise you would have had a new larger "South" station, no Central, and no North
 
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