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Will the Blackpool South line be electrified?

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randyrippley

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It is not a railway issue but a significant number of road bridges in Blackpool had become life expired and required remedial work. Funded in part by the LEP this work has now been done on bridges over the Blackpool North line and the focus has now shifted to the Blackpool South route.
Lets hope the remedial work gives the enhanced clearances for electrification..."just in case....one day"
I bet it doesn't though
 

47802

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I agree that could be done, but my comment was directed at those who keep maintaining that Central should have been retained as the main terminus and North run down. After the crash there was no way that Central could be retained long-term: the finance would not have been there to rebuild it. Closing it and selling the large amount of land at least allowed North to survive. Otherwise you would have had a new larger "South" station, no Central, and no North

I don't think I particularly advocated that but pointed out it would be better if the current line ran closer to the original Central Station and that the closure of Central seemed to be more at the behest of the Council rather than BR, but of course it was different times then with a Railway on the decline, maybe that could be something to consider in the future as an alternative to a Tramlink.
 
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Blackpool South isn’t being electrified although there are mooted plans for tramsor tram trains to run to Lytham from around Pleasure Beach

Living near Blackpool South, that would not be good for business, or visitors, especially to Pleasure Beach. The promenade tramway is not good in Winter, rammed in peak season, and slow! All South line needs is a passing loop, an extra train to Manchester? Far cheaper than closing part of it, and converting part to a tramway.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Living near Blackpool South, that would not be good for business, or visitors, especially to Pleasure Beach. The promenade tramway is not good in Winter, rammed in peak season, and slow! All South line needs is a passing loop, an extra train to Manchester? Far cheaper than closing part of it, and converting part to a tramway.

From what I hear of the current admission charges to Blackpool Pleasure Beach that are advertised, the company running that should be asked to contribute some finance towards any upgrading/enlargement of the railway station facilities there.
 

scrapy

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From what I hear of the current admission charges to Blackpool Pleasure Beach that are advertised, the company running that should be asked to contribute some finance towards any upgrading/enlargement of the railway station facilities there.

In think the Pleasure Beach literally turned their backs on the station when they closed the entrances round that side of the park meaning a long trek all the way round to get to the entrance. The pleasure beach station is now almost as far walking from the main entrance as South station anyway so I can't see funding forthcoming.
 

47802

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Wont it make more sense to go to North and then hop on a Tram to Pleasure Beach when the link is completed
 

Lytham Local

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There was a FoI request put in on August https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/south_fylde_railway_line which asked some of the questions and points being raised in this post.

The reply from DFT https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/426203/response/1037892/attach/html/3/attachment.pdf.html would have been at home during PMQ.

"Looking ahead, you might be interested to know that Lancashire County Council has
identified the Blackpool South line as a key weakness in the Fylde Coast public transport
network. The Council secured funding to investigate the best way of enhancing the role of
the South Fylde Line in providing a southern gateway to Blackpool and to establish what
the most viable and cost-effective way of linking the South Fylde Line and the Blackpool
Tramway might be. They also looked what benefits such a link might deliver."

We've heard that one for years.

"In regard to your point on a passing loop, Network Rail explored a number of options for
maintaining rail access to Blackpool during the closure, which included a passing loop as
you have suggested. Unfortunately, due to the time required to undertake the design and
delivery of the passing loop, this option could not be completed ahead of the November
closure. However, Blackpool South will be open during 8 weeks of the closure to help to
minimise disruption to passengers travelling to Blackpool."

Meh! I think that is utter tripe. Doing a project like re-opening the Borders railway does take a great deal of planning, but to plan for a loop when at the same time planning as already been done to introduce signalling on the South Fylde line just seems to me like they are missing a bit of joined up writing. But then again, I'm not in the industry, so I don't know how they plan for such things.

Going back to the tram situation. Agree with the post above that replacing heavy rail with trams to either St Annes / Lytham would has too great an impact on people and businesses. According to the stats, more than 50% of the usage on the South Fylde line starts at BPS, BPB and SQU so there would be a great deal of outcry from the locals if they lost their direct service to Preston. I would imagine that the nimby's at Royal Lytham would object to electric masts going up next to their beloved golf course. Blackpool Transport and Stagecoach provide a decent bus service from Blackpool to Lytham so it asks the question of whether extending the tram to Lytham would be viable.
 

furnessvale

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Wont it make more sense to go to North and then hop on a Tram to Pleasure Beach when the link is completed
Given the attitude of the Pleasure Beach owners described in these pages, if I hop on a tram at North, I will be going in the opposite direction!
 

BelleIsle

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Lets hope the remedial work gives the enhanced clearances for electrification..."just in case....one day"
I bet it doesn't though

The bridges already completed on the South branch are all noticably steeper which I assume is due to them being higher. They also have high coping stones like what you see on an electrified line. They look wire ready to me. You certainly feel the difference on a push bike.

Skew Bridge (between Lytham and Ansdell) was a much bigger job than the others so I hope they took into account the raised track at this point meant to mitigate flooding issues.

A much bigger issue for me is why they decided to put the new S&T kit where the second track should be.
 

gg1

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The bridges already completed on the South branch are all noticably steeper which I assume is due to them being higher. They also have high coping stones like what you see on an electrified line. They look wire ready to me. You certainly feel the difference on a push bike.

Hasn't it been the case for a while that ALL new bridges, regardless of location, are built with sufficient clearance for OHLE?
 

Chester1

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There was a FoI request put in on August https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/south_fylde_railway_line which asked some of the questions and points being raised in this post.

The reply from DFT https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/426203/response/1037892/attach/html/3/attachment.pdf.html would have been at home during PMQ.

"Looking ahead, you might be interested to know that Lancashire County Council has
identified the Blackpool South line as a key weakness in the Fylde Coast public transport
network. The Council secured funding to investigate the best way of enhancing the role of
the South Fylde Line in providing a southern gateway to Blackpool and to establish what
the most viable and cost-effective way of linking the South Fylde Line and the Blackpool
Tramway might be. They also looked what benefits such a link might deliver."

We've heard that one for years.

"In regard to your point on a passing loop, Network Rail explored a number of options for
maintaining rail access to Blackpool during the closure, which included a passing loop as
you have suggested. Unfortunately, due to the time required to undertake the design and
delivery of the passing loop, this option could not be completed ahead of the November
closure. However, Blackpool South will be open during 8 weeks of the closure to help to
minimise disruption to passengers travelling to Blackpool."

Meh! I think that is utter tripe. Doing a project like re-opening the Borders railway does take a great deal of planning, but to plan for a loop when at the same time planning as already been done to introduce signalling on the South Fylde line just seems to me like they are missing a bit of joined up writing. But then again, I'm not in the industry, so I don't know how they plan for such things.

Going back to the tram situation. Agree with the post above that replacing heavy rail with trams to either St Annes / Lytham would has too great an impact on people and businesses. According to the stats, more than 50% of the usage on the South Fylde line starts at BPS, BPB and SQU so there would be a great deal of outcry from the locals if they lost their direct service to Preston. I would imagine that the nimby's at Royal Lytham would object to electric masts going up next to their beloved golf course. Blackpool Transport and Stagecoach provide a decent bus service from Blackpool to Lytham so it asks the question of whether extending the tram to Lytham would be viable.

Cutting back to Lytham would allow a half hourly service without needing to upgrade what was left of the branch. Combined with reasonable connection times at Lytham this could be sold as an improvement. Redesigning Lytham with an island platform for same platform transfers between train and tram would also help. NR will sign over half of the branch if that is what the council wants because it loses money.
 

snowball

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Hasn't it been the case for a while that ALL new bridges, regardless of location, are built with sufficient clearance for OHLE?
Yes but the bridges under discussion are not new, merely undergoing (apparently fairly heavy) maintenance.
 

mwmbwls

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Cutting back to Lytham would allow a half hourly service without needing to upgrade what was left of the branch. Combined with reasonable connection times at Lytham this could be sold as an improvement. Redesigning Lytham with an island platform for same platform transfers between train and tram would also help. NR will sign over half of the branch if that is what the council wants because it loses money.

It would make the Colne-Blackpool-Ormskirk-Blackpool-Colne service concatenation more robust by reducing the overall proportion of single line working.. IIRC earlier studies about a loop on the line found that Ansdell would have been the best place but that the alignment had been compromised by post rationalisation development with Lytham as a second choice. Lytham had/has two facing platform faces so a cross platform tram/train interchange might have to include some extensive rebuilding and some clever design solution to enable either a ground level passenger crossing that did not cross the heavy rail track or a lift/bridge/staircase arrangement. Extending the trams north through the car park to the Tower would also be worth investigating especially after the North Station link opens. Through inter mode ticketing, TfL style would be essential.
 

Elecman

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If the tram was terminated a5 Ansdell you could still use the existing platform both sides with the tram stopping befor3 th3 disabled ramp and the train at th3 existin* platform face or just donan Ormskirk/ Kirby arrangements dividing the tracks at a suitable point alon* th3 0latform with stop blocks
 

GRALISTAIR

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surely this is about as likely as a new tunnel being built under central Blackpool to build a new line to link the Blackpool North and Blackpool South stations!

In the Northern Sparks Final Report referenced and downloadable in the pinned electrification resources thread, it was listed as Tier 2 (not tier 3) with a weighted score of 45/100 - so I don't 100% agree with your assessment
 

Fleetwood Boy

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I don't think I particularly advocated that but pointed out it would be better if the current line ran closer to the original Central Station and that the closure of Central seemed to be more at the behest of the Council rather than BR, but of course it was different times then with a Railway on the decline, maybe that could be something to consider in the future as an alternative to a Tramlink.
Beeching proposed retaining Central and closing North, with the line via Poulton continuing to Fleetwood which in many ways would have been better than what actually happened. Only Layton would have lost out.

As others have said the appeal of selling the Central site overcame common sense unfortunately. Ironically I seem to remember that in the end the site lay vacant for years until the Hounds Hill Centre was eventually built.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The difference there Paul is that the Bury and Altrincham branches ran to the country's 3rd city and through generally built up areas. There is next to nothing between Lytham and Kirkham.

Have you ever travelled on the Manchester Metrolink on the section of the line from Derker to Rochdale? Plenty of countryside to view en route.
 

jonesy3001

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Beeching proposed retaining Central and closing North, with the line via Poulton continuing to Fleetwood which in many ways would have been better than what actually happened. Only Layton would have lost out.

As others have said the appeal of selling the Central site overcame common sense unfortunately. Ironically I seem to remember that in the end the site lay vacant for years until the Hounds Hill Centre was eventually built.

Blackpool central is where coral island is now, you can actually see where the tracks have been filled in across the road in the car park

https://www.google.com.mt/maps/plac...c54b1b0463c0bcb!8m2!3d53.8141009!4d-3.0546712
 

Bletchleyite

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Have you ever travelled on the Manchester Metrolink on the section of the line from Derker to Rochdale? Plenty of countryside to view en route.

I've long considered the northern bit of the Oldham loop quite beautifully scenic, and the huge tram windows are excellent for viewing it, just like the Pacers before them.
 

Lytham Local

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Having had it's little kip, the Lytham signal is now upright and switched on.
 

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Coral Island is on the site of Central Station booking hall, you can still make out the platforms in car park.
Pleasure beach contributed to building Pleasure Beach station, which opened in April 1987. Regulars to Amusement Park coming by train BPB use the East entrance (Arena Watson Rd) far quicker and cheaper than BPN and using trams etc.

I would have thought that it might be better to get rid of heavy rail entirely on the branch and send it through to Kirkham OK its been said there is not much between Kirkham and Lytham but it would eliminate a short heavy rail branch and allow interchange with heavy rail services at Kirkham.

The Blackpool South line always amuses me the way it stops in the middle of the wasteland that used to be the approach to Central. You would think that a halt nearer Central should have been built or even retained a platform at Central but then I guess that would have attracted too many passengers when North was meant to become the main station. I gather the decision to close Central rather than North was more the decision of the council than the railways as they wanted to redevelop the land which I find ironic OK we have a direct route to the M55 and an oversized Car Park but it still looks like a bit of a wasteland even today.

South Station and Pleasure Beach are well placed to serve South Shore, and part of Central. Having to walk to and stand on a sand-swept wintry Promenade for a slow tram would be naff. No 68 bus would be better.
Wasteland! Blackpool council are keen develop part or more of the South car park. Without South station the site would be be worth considerably more!
If services were doubled on the line, the traffic would triple. Imo the car park is a big asset, and should be promoted for park and ride. Parking at North station is not good - 30 spaces.
The early trains from South Station start well before the trams and buses wake up
 
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Is it still the case that on Mondays to Fridays, the first tram departure from Starr Gate running northwards towards Blackpool is timed at 0500?
Correct first tram is 0500. First train from South was before that, arrive Preston around 0550 ish
I see now, looking at National rail, first train from 29/01/18 2018 when trains start running again, will be 0650, arriving Preston at 0732. Are we losing the early services?
Also terminating at Preston, not running to Colne
 
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