Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[Starmill]

If you think there's a market for enthusiast travel, moving it to Saturday also means you can use the GM Rail Ranger or on it throughout.

 

[pemma]

It's not just enthusiast travel, plenty of groups like an outing by train to some different pubs.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

Very happy with Stoke-Blackpool 15 each way on a Sunday! (+ the morning weekday peak one)
Upping Congleton's sunday service from 5 each way to 20 each way assuming the 5 are kept (which the document suggests they are.)
However if using 319s, the 4-cars will not fit in Stoke's platform 3.
Hoping this goes ahead!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not just enthusiast travel, plenty of groups like an outing by train to some different pubs.

Indeed. You won't make the whole line profitable, but British people love quirky stuff, and a once a week, one direction train is quirky. It used to load quite well on a Saturday lunchtime (the Buffet Bar got good business too for pie and peas and a pint on arrival), and I do suspect that in terms of direct operational cost it probably did make a profit.

 

[sprinterguy]

However if using 319s, the 4-cars will not fit in Stoke's platform 3.

The sectional appendix states an operational length of 88 metres (which surprises me, actually), so if that's correct there shouldn't be an issue.

It's not just enthusiast travel, plenty of groups like an outing by train to some different pubs.

Upon seeing that it was being moved to operate on Saturday, it occurred to me that this train could actually have some occasional practical value to me when I go walking in the Pennines, avoiding the need to delve into Manchester to change trains. Though as noted if it ran a bit later so that it coincided with the opening hours of the Stalybridge Buffet Bar, then it would also have appeal for the instigation of a pub crawl, or for a visit to said establishment in its own right.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

The sectional appendix states an operational length of 88 metres (which surprises me, actually), so if that's correct there shouldn't be an issue.

Good! The 319s are under 80m long!

 

[pemma]

Very happy with Stoke-Blackpool 15 each way on a Sunday! (+ the morning weekday peak one)
Upping Congleton's sunday service from 5 each way to 20 each way assuming the 5 are kept (which the document suggests they are.)
However if using 319s, the 4-cars will not fit in Stoke's platform 3.
Hoping this goes ahead!

Timing based on 319s doesn't automatically mean 319s will be used. Of course pathing potential issues which could occur from using slower accelerating 319s on weekday services probably wouldn't exist on Sundays.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

can't think what else they'd use other than 323s.
What are the chances that these services never happen? Are these services and calling patterns final?

 

[sprinterguy]

What are the chances that these services never happen? Are these services and calling patterns final?

These additional services are all franchise commitments, I believe - not just "nice to haves". As such, I think we can be fairly confident that they are going ahead.

There'll probably be capacity within the fleet for the Sunday service to be operated by 323s, but during the week with the additional and extended services from Stoke and Macclesfield then some services, whether on this route or one of the others presently operated by 323s, will have to be operated by 319s.

Of course pathing potential issues which could occur from using slower accelerating 319s on weekday services probably wouldn't exist on Sundays.

There's the same frequency of long distance trains to work around between Stoke and Stockport on a Sunday as there are on a weekday, aren't there? Two Virgin London services, and two Crosscountry trains each hour. With the introduction of the hourly Sunday local service there'll be the same number of trains each hour on a Sunday as there presently are on a weekday, for at least part of the day.

 

[pemma]

There's the same frequency of long distance trains between Stoke and Stockport on a Sunday as there are on a weekday, aren't there? Two Virgin London services, and two Crosscountry trains each hour. With the introduction of the hourly Sunday local service there'll be the same number of trains each hour on a Sunday as there presently are on a weekday.

No only one XC service an hour on Sundays which means standard pattern departures are:
xx:23 Euston
xx:35 Reading
xx:43 Euston

So a nice long gap for Northern to fit their service in! Of course the number of Northern services also affects when slot a Stoke stopper can be given.

whether on this route or one of the others presently operated by 323s, will have to be operated by 319s.

If everything goes to plan 323s won't be needed on the Alderley Edge services, plus the Manchester-Crewe via Airport stopper will be joined on to a Chat Moss service. The latter it says will be timed for 156s but I imagine the plan is to use 319s with the option for a 156 to fill in if there's a 319 shortage.

 

[sprinterguy]

No only one XC service an hour on Sundays which means standard pattern departures are:
xx:23 Euston
xx:35 Reading
xx:43 Euston

No, there's definitely two Crosscountry trains an hour in the Sunday timetable, at least after midday:

xx:16 Bristol
xx:35 Bournemouth

Though that does still leave a fairly sizeable gap to accommodate the hourly Northern service, as you describe. Services are only reduced to one an hour (and curtailed at Reading) on Sundays leading up to Christmas due to the planned industrial action.

If everything goes to plan 323s won't be needed on the Alderley Edge services, plus the Manchester-Crewe via Airport stopper will be joined on to a Chat Moss service. The latter it says will be timed for 156s but I imagine the plan is to use 319s with the option for a 156 to fill in if there's a 319 shortage.

Ah that's quite illuminating, thanks. I was wondering what the plan was regarding the local services via Wilmslow.

 

[pemma]

Ah that's quite illuminating, thanks. I was wondering what the plan was regarding the local services via Wilmslow.

Crewe to Piccadilly via Stockport services still shown as 323 timed. Alderley Edge-Bolton-Wigan service shown as timed as 150s but it's been mentioned that's one of two services where 769s will be used.

 

[pemma]

It's clear the Airport-Piccadilly stopper is going but it's unclear which service is picking up the calls. Both the Leeds-Bradford-Airport and Liverpool-Warrington-Airport calling patterns mention all the intermediate stations.

 

[thealexweb]

So I think Bolton will have 8tph southbound and 8tph northbound.

As for the southbound ones is the following correct?

2tph Manchester Airport (ex-Blackpool North and ex-Scotland)
1tph Macclesfield / Stoke-On-Trent (ex-Blackpool North)
1tph Alderley Edge (ex-Wigan North Western / Southport)
1tph Stalybridge (ex-Wigan North Western)
1tph Manchester Victoria (ex-Preston) - Puzzling that this does not continue on to anywhere.
2tph Rochdale (ex-Blackburn and ex-Clitheroe)

And for the northbound ones are these correct?

1tph Scotland (ex-Manchester Airport)
2tph Blackpool North (ex-Manchester Airport and ex Macclesfield / Stoke-On-Trent )
2tph Wigan North Western / Southport (ex-Alderley Edge and ex-Stalybridge)
1tph Preston (ex-Manchester Victoria)
1tph Clitheroe (ex-Rochdale)
1tph Blackburn (ex-Rochdale)

 

[lejog]

It's clear the Airport-Piccadilly stopper is going but it's unclear which service is picking up the calls. Both the Leeds-Bradford-Airport and Liverpool-Warrington-Airport calling patterns mention all the intermediate stations.

I'm not sure that the calling patterns are to believed - it appears that all the Calder Valley services are reverting to being all station stoppers, with the likes of Moston apparently getting 6tph! Also the (existing) Cumbria and Blackpool services don't appear to be shown in that table.

 

[pemma]

I'm not sure that the calling patterns are to believed - it appears that all the Calder Valley services are reverting to being all station stoppers, with the likes of Moston apparently getting 6tph! Also the (existing) Cumbria and Blackpool services don't appear to be shown in that table.

I think they've used the 'regular station calls' and 'additional calls' columns incorrectly. The 'additional calls' column contains a lot more empty boxes than you'd expect.

 

[absolutelymilk]

And for the northbound ones are these correct?

1tph Scotland (ex-Manchester Airport)
2tph Blackpool North (ex-Manchester Airport and ex Macclesfield / Stoke-On-Trent )
2tph Wigan North Western / Southport (ex-Alderley Edge and ex-Stalybridge)
1tph Preston (ex-Manchester Victoria)
1tph Clitheroe (ex-Rochdale)
1tph Blackburn (ex-Rochdale)

What about the hourly services to Windermere/Barrow?

 

[Starmill]

What about the hourly services to Windermere/Barrow?

Goes via Parkside, not Bolton.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Goes via Parkside, not Bolton.

Thanks, any idea what the calling pattern is likely to be?

 

[Halish Railway]

Thanks, any idea what the calling pattern is likely to be?

Not sure about stops between the Airport and Piccadilly, but it will replace the TPE service via Wigan, with the same calling points up to Lancaster.

 

[scrapy]

I'm not sure that the calling patterns are to believed - it appears that all the Calder Valley services are reverting to being all station stoppers, with the likes of Moston apparently getting 6tph! Also the (existing) Cumbria and Blackpool services don't appear to be shown in that table.

My understanding is that Moston will get 2tph. This will be on the half hourly Clitheroe/Blackburn to Rochdale services. There may be the odd peak extra call but almost all trains to Blackburn or Leeds via Todmorden will be non stop from Victoria to Rochdale

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

Yeah, the calling patterns are overall during the day rather than specific to every individual service. I believe the plan is for the York-Blackpool North services to skip most stops between York and Leeds to speed it up (with the exception of Church Fenton) with the extra York-Leeds stopper covering this off. However, the calling pattern listed covers every station, including Ulleskelf, Bramley and Mill Hill

 

[scrapy]

Crewe to Piccadilly via Stockport services still shown as 323 timed. Alderley Edge-Bolton-Wigan service shown as timed as 150s but it's been mentioned that's one of two services where 769s will be used.

Traction on current 323 routes is yet to be confirmed.

The last plan I heard for electrified routes Western side was

Man Picc to Hadfield

323s until replaced by 4 car 331s

Wigan to Alderley Edge

769 operated from May 18. Some double 150/156 diagrams including the ones to and from Southport.

Blackpool to Macclesfield

323 operated from May 18. Eventually replaced by 3/4 car 331s

Man Picc to Stoke

323 operated from May 18. Eventually replaced by 3 car 331s

Man Picc to Crewe via Stockport, Liverpool to Crewe via Man Airport, Wigan/Blackpool to Liverpool, Preston to Victoria to be 319 operated from May 2018.

Man Picc to Hazel Grove to be 323 operated in the short term then I would assume it would be 319 operated as can't see them using 331s.

Man Airport to Windermere

769 operated from May 2018

Contingencies also drawn up to skip stops on Stoke, Macclesfield and Hadfield routes should 319s be required on the routes.

 

[Confused147]

I heard the 0337 Blackpool North departure from May next year is going. Anyone confirm this because I use it quite often during summer.

 

[scrapy]

I heard the 0337 Blackpool North departure from May next year is going. Anyone confirm this because I use it quite often during summer.

Not going. It will depart at 0331. Will call at Preston, Bolton, Salford Crescent, Man Picc, Man Airport

 

[pemma]

Traction on current 323 routes is yet to be confirmed.

The last plan I heard for electrified routes Western side was

Man Picc to Hadfield

323s until replaced by 4 car 331s

Wigan to Alderley Edge

769 operated from May 18. Some double 150/156 diagrams including the ones to and from Southport.

Blackpool to Macclesfield

323 operated from May 18. Eventually replaced by 3/4 car 331s

Man Picc to Stoke

323 operated from May 18. Eventually replaced by 3 car 331s

Man Picc to Crewe via Stockport, Liverpool to Crewe via Man Airport, Wigan/Blackpool to Liverpool, Preston to Victoria to be 319 operated from May 2018.

Man Picc to Hazel Grove to be 323 operated in the short term then I would assume it would be 319 operated as can't see them using 331s.

Man Airport to Windermere

769 operated from May 2018

Contingencies also drawn up to skip stops on Stoke, Macclesfield and Hadfield routes should 319s be required on the routes.

That's what I thought was the case. The original plan to use 319s as an interim measure on Hadfield services went very quiet and I'm not sure if Network Rail lengthened the platforms which they were originally supposed to by this November.

Of course being timed for a particular type of traction doesn't mean that traction will actually be used.

 

[scrapy]

That's what I thought was the case. The original plan to use 319s as an interim measure on Hadfield services went very quiet and I'm not sure if Network Rail lengthened the platforms which they were originally supposed to by this November.

Performance issues mean it will be avoided if possible. If 319s are put on the route then a timetable similar to the current leaf fall one would be used with some stations only served hourly.

Flowery Field and Godley would need platform extensions but they will need them for 4 car 331s anyway. All depends on when the 331s come into use and retaining some 323s if only temporarily whilst not in current plans shouldn't be ruled out.

 

[Philip]

I'm surprised that Northern aren't joining the two Northwich line stoppers onto the two CLC Liverpool line stoppers. Apart from freeing up platforms in the main station at Piccadilly it would also get rid of the bottleneck at Oxford Road of trains crossing from platform 5 over to the down line towards Deansgate.

The platform 5 issue at Oxford Road seems to be the one big bottleneck still unresolved in this area, so why not run them through to Piccadilly and then on towards Stockport and Northwich? The two services seem the best to join together, given that running towards Guide Bridge would mean crossing the Piccadilly throat and running to Buxton would limit the traction availability to just Sprinters (because of 142s not fitting with the tunnel dimensions).

 

[pemma]

I don't know how the new diagramming will work but certain Hazel Grove and Chester services have to be Sprinters now as they are part of the same diagrams as Buxton services.

 

[Ianno87]

I'm surprised that Northern aren't joining the two Northwich line stoppers onto the two CLC Liverpool line stoppers. Apart from freeing up platforms in the main station at Piccadilly it would also get rid of the bottleneck at Oxford Road of trains crossing from platform 5 over to the down line towards Deansgate.

The platform 5 issue at Oxford Road seems to be the one big bottleneck still unresolved in this area, so why not run them through to Piccadilly and then on towards Stockport and Northwich? The two services seem the best to join together, given that running towards Guide Bridge would mean crossing the Piccadilly throat and running to Buxton would limit the traction availability to just Sprinters (because of 142s not fitting with the tunnel dimensions).

Problem is, both services are quite constrained timetable wise.

The CLC stoppers have to fit exactly between the TPE/EMT fasts on the route. A stopper leaves Liverpool just behind one fast and even with skip-stopping gets to Oxford Rd just in front of the next one.

The fasts are themselves fairly constrained by timings elsewhere so are basically in the same paths they've been in since the mid-1990s.

Meanwhile, the Chester line timings are constrained by the single lines at Navvy Rd and through Cheadle Heath, as well as paths to 'turn right' at Edgeley No..1 Jn that are few and far between. And to get from 13/14 to the Up lines towards Stockport involves a crossing move at Slade Lane...only to cross back again at Edgeley.

Would be a tricky one to path, for no particular benefit in through demand.