Greater Anglia Smart Card not valid at Hitchin?

[stephy]

Hi,
I have an annual Cambridge/London any route for which I have paid nearly £5k (which I bought in King's Cross). The paper ticket kept not working so I asked at Cambridge station to get it put onto a Smart Card. I really did not think it would matter which Smart Card as it's one season ticket valid between Cambridge and London however when I get on/off at Hitchin the gate staff keep questioning me and told me to get confirmation from Greater Anglia that it's valid. Now I appreciate their turnstiles can't read my GA Smart Card but surely this is a bit of a ludicrous situation whereby my ticket would be valid if on paper but currently I'm almost being refused travel?

What should I do? I have emailed GA but would like some advice, thanks.

 

[Clip]

Get confirmation from them and if not then go back to a paper ticket because youll probably have the same issue on GN if you ever went the GA route.

Bloody stupid situation all round and one more than likely overlooked

 

[Hadders]

I’d switch back to a paper ticket.

Smart cards, m-tickets and print@home sound trendy and convenient but offer less flexibility and fewer rights due to the cack handed way the rail industry has implemented them.

Your ticket is valid on Virgin Trains between Kings Cross and Stevenage should you ever wish to travel that way. Can you imagine VTEC’s reaction to a Greater Anglia smart card during a ticket check?!

 

[Clip]

Can you imagine VTEC’s reaction to a Greater Anglia smart card during a ticket check?!

they would probably say they have never heard of such a train operating company

 

[stephy]

I'm not sure how that helps as I need to get on/off in Hitchin, not Stevenage
As an aside the gate staff also said that certain tickets on smart cards were not relevant on Virgin Trains. Lol.
They told me to get email confirmation from GA that yes my ticket is valid but surely this is just a stupid situation all-round. Why would I have fewer rights if I've literally just transferred my annual any-route season to a card instead of a piece of paper? Surely it's not my problem that Hitchin can't read my smart card?!

 

[Hadders]

I'm not sure how that helps as I need to get on/off in Hitchin, not Stevenage
As an aside the gate staff also said that certain tickets on smart cards were not relevant on Virgin Trains. Lol.
They told me to get email confirmation from GA that yes my ticket is valid but surely this is just a stupid situation all-round. Why would I have fewer rights if I've literally just transferred my annual any-route season to a card instead of a piece of paper? Surely it's not my problem that Hitchin can't read my smart card?!

I agree that it’s not your problem that Hitchin can’t read your smart card and an email shouldn’t be necessary. The fact that Hitchin can’t read the card is an internal rail industry matter - they should arrange for appropriate equipment to be installed or take the passengers word for it.

Paper tickets offer a huge amount of flexibility which smart cards claim to replicate but in reality do not. That’s why they’re best avoided until this can be genuinely rectified.

I simply pointed out the Virgin/Stevenage issue as another problem that could arise. A paper ticket between Cambridge and London Terminals is indisputably valid on VTEC between Kings Cross and Stevenage. The same ticket on a GA smart card should have the same validity but I wouldn’t expect a hassle free journey.

 

[jon0844]

Virgin has for some time accepted The Key on services from Stevenage, but I don't know about GA! Still, what are the chances of being checked on VTEC between King's Cross and Stevenage anyway?

 

[Haywain]

Virgin has for some time accepted The Key on services from Stevenage, but I don't know about GA! Still, what are the chances of being checked on VTEC between King's Cross and Stevenage anyway?

I'm pretty sure they do accept it, and the chances of being checked in that area depend on how busy the train is.

 

[jon0844]

I'm pretty sure they do accept it, and the chances of being checked in that area depend on how busy the train is.

I can't remember the last time I was checked on a Virgin train between London and Stevenage in either direction. I've always figured they do a walk through later in the journey, or perhaps don't walk the entire train early on.

But the point is, they accept The Key even if they can't read it (or maybe they now have readers) after the nonsense of saying a smartcard with an any permitted season wasn't valid. I would hope that GA smartcards, or indeed ANY smartcard holding a valid ticket, is treated the same.

GTR passenger hosts have readers but maybe gateline staff don't, but why aren't two ITSO cards able to work the gates anyway? Same reason for The Key not being accepted at GA stations where GN trains call. All a bit silly.

 

[stephy]

So to make matters worse: I actually need a refund.

-Purchased paper annual at Virgin’s King’s Cross office
-Swiftly stopped working so got a replacement paper ticket at Cambridge (GA). Advised of Smart Card but then told as I hadn’t purchased it there it may not be possible
-GA email me to say actually it is! So I get one, as the paper tickets are irritating in how often they fail
-Ask at Cambridge for a refund - no-can-do as it was a replacement paper ticket transferred onto a Smart Card
-GA Smart Card team on the phone say I must get a refund from the original station
-Virgin say they cannot refund me as it’s been transferred

The ticket is valid til next June. I am furious - I am entitled to a refund. What am I supposed to do?

 

[John @ home]

So to make matters worse: I actually need a refund.

Do you really need a refund rather than a change-over? If you're continuing to travel regularly between any two rail stations in GB, it is almost always better to get a change-over. The amount due to you is calculated more generously in many instances.

 

[stephy]

I won’t be travelling anymore.
This is a ludicrous situation.

 

[Hadders]

If you’re no longer travelling then a changeover to a cheaper season ticket (eg Hatton to Lapworth) usually yields a larger refund, bizarre as it sounds.

This is because a changeover is calculated on a pro-rata basis whereas a refund is calculated by using the cost of monthly tickets in calculating the amount due. Plus you get to keep Gold Card benefits!

 

[Haywain]

To get a refund from VTEC you would first need to get the ticket changed back to a paper ticket. As VTEC do not issue smart card seasons they have no method for cancelling them so that they can be refunded.

A changeover, as suggested by Hadders, can be done at any station but levels of enthusiasm vary.

 

[Lee_Again]

This is the problem when you sell any kind of ticket that doesn't show at least the most basic information. Plastic cards clearly don't do that.

I don't understand how it can be the passengers fault when the rail industry should have solved this problem before it was a problem.

A simple solution would be to print the ticket details on to the card. This would work for monthlies and longer but becomes prohibitively expensive for shorter seasons and/or daily purchases.

Even a simple LCD rolling display with Start/End/Date/Class would work and be quite cheap.

I had lots of issues with my Key travelling from King's Cross to Stevenage before Virgin 'allowed' there use. Each time the ticket inspector (only a few times) let it go with a 'that's not valid but I'll let it go' comment.

"It is valid, and you are not letting it go" was my response. I tried my best to provoke a reaction but never got one. Presumably because they knew it was be pointless.

 

[stephy]

Wait - I'll get more money back if I changeover then just don't use it?! WTF. Well, I don't know how well that's going to go down as currently in phone tennis with GA about even being 'allowed' a refund.
Any advice? Not sure how to resolve this? Who would be liable for changing it back to a paper ticket?
So fed up - if I'd known this would happen I never would have bothered. I also don't understand how gate staff can't grasp that the same ticket just on a card valid. It does not make any sense, except if they mean they don't trust I've actually got that ticket on the card. But, it comes with a gold card-esque 'not for travel' summary 'ticket' detailing the ticket on the card! I wouldn't have any other way of getting that!
This whole thing makes my blood boil when I've paid so much for my ticket. Thank god I now have a car.

 

[Haywain]

Any advice? Not sure how to resolve this? Who would be liable for changing it back to a paper ticket?

To be clear on my comments above, Greater Anglia can process a changeover for you but a refund would have to come from VTEC as they were the original seller of the ticket. For that refund GA would need to have the ticket changed to a paper ticket before VTEC will accept it. As the changeover will get you more money and can be processed by GA, that would seem to be the best option.

I can appreciate that the situation seems strange but it is emphasised somewhat by the ticket having been moved on to a smart card, which is rather unusual.

 

[stephy]

Sorry, I'm confused. How can GA give me money back for a changeover if they didn't sell me the original ticket? As surely they'd owe me money if I changed it over?
Any advice for what to ask for when asking for a changeover? Never done this before.

 

[furlong]

If you tell people the start date of your ticket and the exact amount paid, someone here might show you how to do the calculations to compare a refund to a changeover to the cheapest available season ticket so you know approximately how much you should get back.

 

[stephy]

Thanks. Started 6 June 2017, cost £4780.00. Cambridge/London any route.
So now GA are telling me to get it changed to a paper ticket again - fine, easy enough, but no-one at the ticket offices seemed to know this before. It's a step in the right direction at least.

 

[jon0844]

Until ticket offices are updated and have the necessary card readers, changing from card to paper and vice versa will be a massive PITA.

The process for changing a paper season to The Key involves getting the customer to get their own card, give it to the ticket office, contact The Key department to set up the season, get an email to say it's done, go and tap a machine to download the season to it, then call the customer in to swap the paper ticket for the card. I have no idea how long it takes on average, but it's not as quick as pulling a card out of a drawer, setting it up, adding a ticket and then taking back the paper ticket (maybe 5 minutes tops).

In reverse it might potentially be quicker, but I assume the card has to be deactivated first and for the TOC to know that has happened (so a key with a season isn't lost or even accidentally retained by the passenger) and so that might still require emails/phone calls.

GTR are at least intending to roll out new equipment that should allow smartcards to be managed at stations, but I am not sure exactly when. I don't know about GA.

 

[Hadders]

Wait - I'll get more money back if I changeover then just don't use it?! WTF.

Consider a weekly season ticket that costs £100. The monthly ticket would cost £384 and an Annual £4,000.

You buy an Annual ticket but stop using it after 6 months and ask for a refund. You'd need to pay for 6 months travel, i.e 6*£384 which is £2,304. You'd get back the amount paid (£4,000 less the cost of a 6 month season ticket (£2,304) less a £10 admin fee) which would mean you'd get a refund of £1,686.

If you changeover to a cheap season ticket (e.g Hatton to Lapworth which costs £164 a year) then it's on a pro-rata basis so you'd be refunded £2,000 for your old season ticket less the pro-rate cost of the new season ticket (£82). There's no admin fee either so you'd get back £1,918. And you'd still have an Annual Gold Card which would give a discount of 34% on off peak travel in the Gold Card Area!

 

[yorkie]

As an aside the gate staff also said that certain tickets on smart cards were not relevant on Virgin Trains. Lol.

They are wrong. I am, however, not surprised. Not one bit..

Some people love gatelines however gatelines are only acceptable if they are manned by appropriately trained staffwho do not attempt to deny passengers their rights. Sadly, it is far too often the case that gateline staff invent rules that do not exist and impose non-existent conditions.

It would be unlawful for GTR or VTEC to refuse to accept your Season, but that won't stop some of their staff trying to do just that. I see no end to such nonsense; there is no proper ombudsman. The likes of Anthony Smith at Transport Focus appear to do nothing and are ineffective. The Department for Transport say it's not their problem. The ORR will do nothing. There is currently no body with any teeth who is out to protect customer interests. I have helped countless victims of over-zealous train companies. It's ridiculous.

 

[Jonfun]

I had a smartcard once. Few of the staff had a reader, those that did couldn't understand what came up on the screen when they scanned it. It didn't operate the gates at either end of my journey and took longer for the ticket machine to process than it would to just print a normal ticket. Paper any day for me!

 

[Wallsendmag]

I honestly can’t see how it isn’t valid at Hitchin as it’s valid on VTEC from Stevenage

 

[Wallsendmag]

They are wrong. I am, however, not surprised. Not one bit..

Some people love gatelines however gatelines are only acceptable if they are manned by appropriately trained staffwho do not attempt to deny passengers their rights. Sadly, it is far too often the case that gateline staff invent rules that do not exist and impose non-existent conditions.

It would be unlawful for GTR or VTEC to refuse to accept your Season, but that won't stop some of their staff trying to do just that. I see no end to such nonsense; there is no proper ombudsman. The likes of Anthony Smith at Transport Focus appear to do nothing and are ineffective. The Department for Transport say it's not their problem. The ORR will do nothing. There is currently no body with any teeth who is out to protect customer interests. I have helped countless victims of over-zealous train companies. It's ridiculous.

GTR/GA and ScotRail Smartcard seasons are all valid on VTEC

 

[stephy]

don’t really understand the changeover maths but sounds pretty good!

 

[stephy]

So I spoke to the Hitchin staff and they said that GA are giving out revenue staff maps showing that the Smart Card is only valid from stations quite close to London on the GA network?! I have absolutely no idea what utter nonsense this is, as they were quite happy to put my Cambridge/London annual season onto a Smart Card.

Not worth the hassle at all.

I got a refund at King's Cross which took over 45 minutes - not naming any names but the clerk was most certainly not the sharpest tool in the box. Let's see if it does actually come through with no problems...